/tg/Station 13

So I've been thinking a lot about this.

Mostly the amount of roleplay is kept fairly in balance with good players, fresh unburnt out players and new interesting code that adjusts the dynamic. But we're now heading backwards again as the new player tide slows down and people become burnt out or get bored.

/tg/ is an MRP (medium roleplay), despite most of Terry thinking its a LRP, our "style" has always been MRP. The balance between goon and bay etc etc.

My real question is this; What can we do to encourage and improve roleplay? I want to hear ideas. Maybe you think its a mechanical one, maybe its pushed by a group of regular players, maybe its a policy change, maybe its more events with structure. I want actual ideas that we can put forward to the headmins and the coders in order to actually get some interesting roleplay back into the game.

I honestly think it's a lost cause. There are three groups of poeple who won't roleplay.

- Tiders and validhunters
- People who just want to do their job
- Antags when not trying to blend in/intentionally ignoring that they are an antag

This may be a consequence of giving more stuff to do to people,a ctually.

Calomel wrote:- People who just want to do their job

doing your job and talking normally is still fine MRP, if you sit around in the turbine working on your own project and chilling with other atmos techs you are basically playing the role of atmos tech properly and it's no less roleplaying then sitting in the bar emoting every expression.

So long as people act somewhat human you're in the perfect spot. This is one of the main reasons net speak and ooc terms aren't allowed in IC chat; to try and keep a minimum standard where interactions between players in game feel a little more organic. We could go further but I wouldn't recommend it, sometimes people just want to meme and stifling speech to try and force RP is just going to be a lot of effort for something that only some would appreciate; most seem to like the freedom to be goofy sometimes and serious in others. Just try and be a player others can aspire to if you want more RP, be the change you want to see.

It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

You can’t have quality corporate space station rp when antags and greytide are reenacting the purge every shift.

Tiders and Validhunters I think are the biggest problem when it comes to RP. It is very hard to act like a member of a corporate station when there are 10-15 jobless murder-hobos running around breaking shit for fun or stealing supplies because they "need it" as an assistant who isn't even doing a special project.

Antags get a free pass due to having loosened rules, and people just doing their job are at least contributing to the station in some way usually, such as making food, or providing power.

Extend the round length so it is possible to do gimmicks and build relationships. This is especially important for roles like botanist or xenobiologist who often feel like they need to turbo powergame to get their gamergear before the shuttle is called at 30min into the round.

Reenable drones to help repair the station and reduce early shuttle calls.

Admins should lobby MSO for a dedicated MRP server where admins feel empowered to warn players who consistently do the same tired murderbone / greytide / excessive powergaming every round. However the most important function of a MRP server is collecting all the players who actually wish to RP.

There is Sybil-2, anybody who feels the need for "higher RP" experience can easily migrate instead of forcing it onto everybody.

Aside from that the best round length is 30-60 minutes. That way the game feels immersive and interactive. People who want to do 120 minute autism projects are more than welcome to check out low pop /tg/ servers such as Sybil-2.

Code: Disincentive lone wolfing, roleplay and drama is born from interactions and flimsy alliances. This is the complete opposite at the moment, as there's little reason to trust others rather than stealing everything you need and set out on your own.
Examples:
Lower inventory limits(less inventory nesting/slowdown from encumbrance)
More focus on actions that require(or at least greatly benefit from) another person, such as surgery
Make break-ins less trivial, and ID access more secure and difficult to obtain illegally

Policy: Stop putting roles like security under a microscope while there's people that play like they're an antag on a daily basis for months without repercussions. Ideally, stop the latter from doing what they do instead.

Just actually enforce naming policy and ban people like Bal Di who quote memes IC and constantly valid hunt.

If you shift the burden from the players dealing with the burnt-out antag rollers onto the admins. You'll see less of them.

Either through being banned or not wanting to be banned.

Also, we gotta really change the way we get antag here. It's too much of a dopamine boost to have a chance at getting antag by pressing Ready. Then when you don't get it, you gotta circumvent what you wanted to do by breaking into places and being chased by security all-around or by getting into a fight to the death by someone who literally just wanted to do their job.

It's a lottery machine for antag guys. And when people don't win, they try to circumvent it instead of leaving.

Also, it's not like leaving is encouraged either, because antag rolling is bannable. So what do you want these folks to do?

Lose-Lose System.

So if we want the RP to go up. We cut down on the players avoiding playing the game the right way, who want to play as antags.

But before it even gets to that point, we can cut away all those players who could instead find something better to do. By simply making antag status known to the player much much sooner.

Here's a comprehensive list on how to solve the issue. Some of these things are code, some are policy.

- Introduce the following rule: "If someone is currently stationed at a department, you must attempt to have them do the job or service you require. Failing to do so and simply breaking in/stealing their equipment/doing their job for them is not only grounds for escalation, but against server rules. If nobody is present or the person refuses to do their job(within reason), you may then attempt to do it yourself, but are still subject to escalation."
- Bring in randomized airlock wires, or airlock wires per department.
- Remove all public sources of insuls. Remove all initial spawns of pump-up.
- Replace the equipment rack in all law offices with a locked locker that can only be unlocked by someone with law office access. Put the roundstart sunglasses in that locker. Alternatively, make sunglasses a roundstart spawn item for lawyers.
- Make it so that the ORM cannot be unwrenched unless someone with ORM access swiped their ID to "unlock" it first.
- Force traitors to at least attempt greentext. If you murderbone(will still be allowed), survive until the end, and still didn't manage to get the hypospray? Warning, then ban, then longer ban, etc. If you murderbone and get killed without hijack/die? Warning. If you collect enough warnings for murderboning that the admins can see a clear pattern, start banning.
- Use Rule 0/1 to permanently remove players that are only "playing to win". This behavior is pretty obvious to anyone that observes it, and there's already several notable examples. One of them is even an admin.
- Alter the maps so that every department has an "airlock" setup to prevent unauthorized people from ghosting in behind someone, similar to places like the brig and science wing.

People who just want to do their job

These people aren't the issue. We want more people like this playing, not less.

Lower inventory limits(less inventory nesting/slowdown from encumbrance)

Making life annoying for ordinary crewmembers in an attempt to curb the tide isn't a good idea. Encumbrance based slowdown with non-bluespace bags isn't a bad idea, but reducing inventory slots would just make everybody worse off and less happy.

Admins should lobby MSO for a dedicated MRP server where admins feel empowered to warn players who consistently do the same tired murderbone / greytide / excessive powergaming every round. However the most important function of a MRP server is collecting all the players who actually wish to RP.

Making a dedicated MRP server carries the implication that the other servers are LRP. It would also require modified rules, specific admins, and an entire mess of bullshit that nobody wants to deal with. Just start bringing all the servers in line with the intended standard instead of abandoning them to the wolves.

deedubya wrote:snip

I would support most of these, with the exception of the anti-redtext rule. The role of an antag is to make problems for the crew, and striking out on one's own to cause trouble, even through mass murder, is a perfectly acceptable method of accomplishing this.

Moreover, the fact that traitors are perfectly capable of mass murder increases paranoia for the crew. Traitors are dangerous, and everyone should know that they are dangerous. Anything else feeds into the "not my problem" attitude that is all too prevalent already.

Additionally, defining playing-to-win is not as easy as you suggest.

Farquaar wrote:

deedubya wrote:snip

I would support most of these, with the exception of the anti-redtext rule. The role of an antag is to make problems for the crew, and striking out on one's own to cause trouble, even through mass murder, is a perfectly acceptable method of accomplishing this.

Moreover, the fact that traitors are perfectly capable of mass murder increases paranoia for the crew. Traitors are dangerous, and everyone should know that they are dangerous. Anything else feeds into the "not my problem" attitude that is all too prevalent already.

Additionally, defining playing-to-win is not as easy as you suggest.

Big code issue with that stance Farquaar. Healing is harder. Why should dying stay just as easy?

I understand we want more things for Medical to do. But you can't have MRP if everyone is dead/dying and it takes too long to revive them/being just plain impossible!

Shadowflame909 wrote:

Farquaar wrote:

deedubya wrote:snip

Snip

Snip

You answered your own question. If anything, harder healing disproportionally disadvantages traitors, who don’t have anyone to heal them. Traitors can’t clone themselves either.

oh ho ho. I wish that was the case. But antags being antags, they get EVERYTHING better then the crew.

Without any rule changes to also go with it. Antags can totally Out-heal the crew with methods like Healing Holoparasites, Syndicate Tomes, Syndicate Medikit, Stim-Packs and Syndicate Smokes.

Also if they really need surgery, they can just get the syndicate surgery kit and a borg shell. Or have an emag and find a medical borg.

We could go into bundles but those are more RNG.

They also do a whole lot of AOE damage, to completely avoid any type of involvement in the conflict!

With Syndicate Max-Caps, Bomb Cannons, Gorillas, His-Grace, Revs-Lite Flash Conversion, brainwashing, Hot Potatoes, Other Holopara's. Clown Bombs, and the feared Clown Car.

You put 4-5 of these guys in a round. Able to take out the entire server with a great single one of them.

They're very Strong. Intentionally Yes, as the point is clear with no denial.

But they don't need medbay. And will shrug off crew nerfs if you don't have them in mind specifically.

MRP can't deal with boundless traitors. It just won't.

Edit: Reworded to deal with my famous shadow-texting

Farquaar wrote:

deedubya wrote:snip

I would support most of these, with the exception of the anti-redtext rule. The role of an antag is to make problems for the crew, and striking out on one's own to cause trouble, even through mass murder, is a perfectly acceptable method of accomplishing this.

Technically speaking, the role of a traitor is to accomplish their directives at all costs. That's why they're even given objectives in the first place. One of those objectives is typically to escape on a shuttle/pod alive, so creating an incident major enough to warrant evacuation is an acceptable part of this. But it's not the only part of a traitor's objectives, and we should start treating it as such. Just like it's against the rules to be deliberately incompetent as a crew member, it should be against the rules to be deliberately incompetent as a traitor.

Shadowflame909 wrote:You put 4-5 of these guys in a round. Able to take out the entire server with a great single one of them.

You are being a bit hyperbolic here. Science starts with 6 TTVs, which is 3 less than 5 traitors working perfectly together in order to produce 100TC worth of bombs (9 bombs). Then again science bombs do bigger booms.

Why would you want the game to become staler by limiting the traitors? If they want to do a big boom, they can, if they want to do nothing for 60 minutes and then do a little boom 10 seconds before the shuttle lands in order to greentext, they can.

The game is pretty RP, if you put in some effort to RP yourself.

deedubya wrote:Alternatively, make sunglasses a roundstart spawn item for lawyers.

lmao

What can we do to encourage and improve roleplay?

Nuke the digg playerbase and start advertising in places where people who appreciate roleplay congregate.
Not a shitpost. You can't make people roleplay if they don't want to. Simple as that.

/tg/ has never been MRP, nor have the rules ever really reflected that. The closest we've came to MRP was maybe back in the server 2 days from 2011-2013 (also when bagil used to be more lowpop I guess as well) but that was a product of the community at the time and not the ruleset or admins. The only real solution would be to create a new server similar to the way we created an EU server and a CM server and create a modified ruleset while also filling it with admins who could enforce that type of ruleset which I would imagine would be extremely difficult because almost everyone has a different notion of what MRP actually is.

Istoprocent1 wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:You put 4-5 of these guys in a round. Able to take out the entire server with a great single one of them.

You are being a bit hyperbolic here. Science starts with 6 TTVs, which is 3 less than 5 traitors working perfectly together in order to produce 100TC worth of bombs (9 bombs). Then again science bombs do bigger booms.

Why would you want the game to become staler by limiting the traitors? If they want to do a big boom, they can, if they want to do nothing for 60 minutes and then do a little boom 10 seconds before the shuttle lands in order to greentext, they can.

The game is pretty RP, if you put in some effort to RP yourself.

It's not even just bombs Istoprocent1

I'm sure you've been a traitor who got killed by another traitor doing an e-sword e-bow mass murderbone gimmick.

"""gimmick"""

The wonder of such non strict rules is they give you the freedom to roleplay however the hell you want to. The capacity to RP on less strict rules is better than it ever will be on a server with more strict rules.
People play to win, but if they want to win who cares? If you want to RP, then RP. Except for maybe if youre unlucky and get boned fast on a nukie/wizard round, which may happen occasionally. The fact of the matter is that without tiding and valid hunting there isn't a whole lot to do for a lot of the games jobs, people want to turn each other horizontal, its fun. You want more RP, create more fun RP things to do.

Shadowflame909 wrote:I'm sure you've been a traitor who got killed by another traitor doing an e-sword e-bow mass murderbone gimmick.

I can't recall anything like that happening recently. Only a handful of people are able to pull ebow and esword off without getting instantly dunked themselves (and even then they don't succeed 100% of the time) and there are multiple options in order to avoid that such as: using codewords, suicide bombs and gitting gud in general.

Antags are there to make things interesting.

deedubya wrote:Technically speaking, the role of a traitor is to accomplish their directives at all costs. That's why they're even given objectives in the first place.

Perhaps we are talking past each other, so allow me to clarify. The purpose an antag is to make problems for the crew. Objectives may suggest a direction that an antag might take, but they are not sufficient for fulfilling this purpose due to the reasons I stated above.

Sometinyprick wrote:/tg/ has never been MRP, nor have the rules ever really reflected that. The closest we've came to MRP was maybe back in the server 2 days from 2011-2013 (also when bagil used to be more lowpop I guess as well) but that was a product of the community at the time and not the ruleset or admins. The only real solution would be to create a new server similar to the way we created an EU server and a CM server and create a modified ruleset while also filling it with admins who could enforce that type of ruleset which I would imagine would be extremely difficult because almost everyone has a different notion of what MRP actually is.

tg has always been MRP, what the fuck are you on about

oranges wrote:tg has always been MRP, what the fuck are you on about

Maybe someone should tell the players then

peoplearestrange wrote:/tg/ is an MRP (medium roleplay), despite most of Terry thinking its a LRP, our "style" has always been MRP. The balance between goon and bay etc etc.

TG isn’t MRP because there is no such thing as MRP. TG is LRP, the balance between Goon’s No RP, and Bay’s HRP. You either have NoRP with no role play, LRP with just loose RP restrictions, or HRP with more restrictions to make it more immersive. MRP is just LRP but the admins don’t want anyone to have fun.

Tarchonvaagh wrote:It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

Spoiler:

forbid murderboning and powergaming

paradise station sounds like your ideal server

The Respected Man wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

Spoiler:

forbid murderboning and powergaming

paradise station sounds like your ideal server

I don't want erp

One of the main causes behind this would probably be the way antagonists are revered like a gift from God. They get the best toys, and total freedom. A great step to improve the current attitude is murderbone restrictions. I'd suggest something similar to the system used for roundstart suicides; Once is fine, twice is iffy, if you're doing it every round you play, you're going to get in trouble.

Tarchonvaagh wrote:

The Respected Man wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

Spoiler:

forbid murderboning and powergaming

paradise station sounds like your ideal server

I don't want erp

Play yog, the changes you are pushing for are already there.

>cannot play the game, unless admin allows you - check
>no dynamic
>no bad words
>etc

Istoprocent1 wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:

The Respected Man wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

Spoiler:

forbid murderboning and powergaming

paradise station sounds like your ideal server

I don't want erp

Play yog, the changes you are pushing for are already there.

>cannot play the game, unless admin allows you - check (??????)
>no dynamic
>no bad words(??????)
>etc

I tried yog but it didn't fit me
Also dynamic is in the rotation of secret so I see no problems with 24/7 secret on all servers

Tarchonvaagh wrote:I tried yog but it didn't fit me

So, why are you pushing for a change that turns tg into yog?

FloranOtten wrote:One of the main causes behind this would probably be the way antagonists are revered like a gift from God. They get the best toys, and total freedom. A great step to improve the current attitude is murderbone restrictions. I'd suggest something similar to the system used for roundstart suicides; Once is fine, twice is iffy, if you're doing it every round you play, you're going to get in trouble.

This should be enforced in code not with some arbitrary rule.

An idea just off the top of my head, mental stability. Starts at 100 and decreases if you are the last person to do damage to someone when they die. Increases back to 100 over time. Kill someone occasionally, its fine. Kill lots of people it goes down and begins causing mental traumas.

Much better than threatening to ban someone for an action no one is able to universally define or measure.

We already have a sanity system that slows you down but antags literally get a free pass for some brain damaged reason.

NoxVS wrote:
An idea just off the top of my head, mental stability. Starts at 100 and decreases if you are the last person to do damage to someone when they die. Increases back to 100 over time. Kill someone occasionally, its fine. Kill lots of people it goes down and begins causing mental traumas.

Much better than threatening to ban someone for an action no one is able to universally define or measure.

Seems like this could be incorporated into the moodlet system pretty easily.

Hopefully "last person to do damage to someone" goes away after a short timer. Imagine someone spacing themselves/dying to lava and you randomly get a moodlet like "I killed someone.."

big think

antags dont get a free pass. they get a decent bonus though. unless theres some hidden mechanic beyond the moderate mood buff.

Tarchonvaagh wrote:

Istoprocent1 wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:

The Respected Man wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

Spoiler:

forbid murderboning and powergaming

paradise station sounds like your ideal server

I don't want erp

Play yog, the changes you are pushing for are already there.

>cannot play the game, unless admin allows you - check (??????)
>no dynamic
>no bad words(??????)
>etc

I tried yog but it didn't fit me
Also dynamic is in the rotation of secret so I see no problems with 24/7 secret on all servers

you went on a server that incorporates what you suggest for tg and you hated it.

really activates my almonds

imsxz wrote:antags dont get a free pass. they get a decent bonus though. unless theres some hidden mechanic beyond the moderate mood buff.

They shouldnt get the mood buff they already get TBH, as it basically means they can completely ignore slowdown from not eating.

I did not say once that I hated yog, only that it won't fit me. It lacks the playerbase, code changes, etc.
I don't want murderboning to be fully forbidden, just a bit toned down. Same for greytiding. It would make the game fun for a lot more people, and more would actually play sec
Like isto, aren't you the sec main who hates tiders? Wouldn't it be great if you didn't need to kill that one assistant/engi/any job who broke into the cap office near roundstart? Just imagine.

teepeepee wrote:

deedubya wrote:Alternatively, make sunglasses a roundstart spawn item for lawyers.

lmao

oh oops

Addendum: Remove the sunglasses from the lawyer's office entirely, then give them to lawyers as a spawn item.

The Respected Man wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:

Istoprocent1 wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:

The Respected Man wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:It depends on the people (until a Policy change), you can't change the mind of an LRP person

Spoiler:

forbid murderboning and powergaming

paradise station sounds like your ideal server

I don't want erp

Play yog, the changes you are pushing for are already there.

>cannot play the game, unless admin allows you - check (??????)
>no dynamic
>no bad words(??????)
>etc

I tried yog but it didn't fit me
Also dynamic is in the rotation of secret so I see no problems with 24/7 secret on all servers

you went on a server that incorporates what you suggest for tg and you hated it.

really activates my almonds

“I wish the US didn’t have such easy access to guns”
Then move to china dumbass, guns are regulated there

Tarchonvaagh wrote:I did not say once that I hated yog, only that it won't fit me. It lacks the playerbase, code changes, etc.

What's that? A server with more restrictions in comparison to tg has a lacking playerbase and an almost dead coding scene?
Must be just a coincidence, surely

Guess since yog is rip we better turn this server into yog "but better" but lets be honest we'll just end up like yog all the same lmao

if you want MRP you should at least get a few paid actors to RP so people wont have to deal with a few brazilians 1 week accounts that hit you with medkit to heal

lol

Tarchonvaagh wrote:Like isto, aren't you the sec main who hates tiders?

Dat me.

Tarchonvaagh wrote:Wouldn't it be great if you didn't need to kill that one assistant/engi/any job who broke into the cap office near roundstart? Just imagine.

I would rather have the option to deal with the guy IC, knowing that whatever happens to the guy does not land me in hot water based on someone else's arbitrary whim. I don't want to rely on the admins to play the game for me.

Tarchonvaagh wrote:Wouldn't it be great if you didn't need to kill that one assistant/engi/any job who broke into the cap office near roundstart? Just imagine.

have you ever played security officer?
this is the best part of the job
if anything, any sec officer should want more greytiding and less admin interference with our game of cat and mouse