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Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:09 pm
by Nabski
From this ban appeal, specifically this line.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24740

Being Law 2'd to kill someone randomly is against the server rules in regards to you have to treat non-humans the same way as you treat everyone as if you were Purged since your lawsest doesn't require you to protect/listen to them.


From there Exavere goes on to post things related to PURGED silicons, rather than what he should have cared about which is https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Asimov_.26_Law_2_Issues. To me that has ALWAYS read if you were given an order you follow the order. If it's not proper escalation the person who gave the shitty order is at fault.

So in short, Is "Borg Law Two: Kill Andy Nyansa, he is a non human cat lawyer" something that is breaking server rules, or a valid order that should end with a dead cat.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:25 pm
by teepeepee
there's no way of distinguishing a rule-breaking order made by a non-antag (like ordering to kill a random non-human), a rule compliant order made by a non-antag (like ordering to kill a non-human that is otherwise valid) and a rule-compliant order made by an antag (like ordering to kill a random non-human), thus, the silicon player should just follow the order anyways and let the janitors deal with the mess in aisle 5, otherwise we would be asking of them to fuck over people by not following the IC rules silicons have for arbitrary OOC reasons in 2/3 scenarios for little benefit (it's not like it's hard for admins to ban someone and aheal/repair the damage done to the victim if it was a rule-breaking order)

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:30 pm
by Lazengann
Yeah if you don't want the silicons weaponized against you don't play as a nonhuman

Onus is on the person giving the order, the laws the law and silicons gotta follow it.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 pm
by Arianya
The rules have generally been of two different opinions about this, because there are pros and cons to each.

You'll note that just above the part you've quoted of the rules, under Silicon protections we have two rules that go like so:
The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.


Basically, there are two schools of thought. One is that if something seems sus you should ahelp it and either delay or disregard it until an admin gives the OK or not - the theory being that generally these messes are a pain to clean up with admin tools if they're found to be illegitimate.

The other school of thought is that we shouldn't have OOC considerations intervening in the flow of the round - if someone makes an rule breaking order then they're dealt with but the order still happened in the round.

There are pros and cons to both - no one wants to be the AI that suicided immediately because they didn't want to get bwoinked over non law compliance only to be told they shouldn't have suicided and must now remain dead for the rest of the round.

Realistically follow your heart - if you ahelp it no admin is really gonna give you shit over ahelping a sketch order, and if you follow it the onus is on the order giver, barring some gross misinterpretation. Neither instance ends up with you specifically in trouble so just do what your gut tells you is the correct thing at that time.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:53 pm
by Lazengann
The rules are outdated by the way, the laws now states like "your non-existence would cause human harm" so you can't just order them to suicide any more.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:09 pm
by Cobby
Do the order then ahelp and just don't destroy the body unless specifically asked.

I can fix a dead body fairly easily, I can't easily fix a missed time-crucial opportunity because a borg player was afraid it wasn't a "real order" or whatever.

The quoted post in OP is an odd interpretation of the rules, your lawset allows for legal escalation bypassing and doing things that would usually be considered antagonistic even if you aren't an antag. It's when you AREN'T bound to do these things per the laws that you should follow purge rulings (aka good faith).

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:13 pm
by deedubya
tl;dr: It's against the rules to give that order, but it's not against the rules to follow it.

Yes, I get that this interpretation is a lite-griff license. But what are you supposed to do? Sit there for several minutes while you ahelp and get permission first? Silicons have laws for a reason. Follow them. If you want to be on the safe side, ahelp afterwards and tell them who ordered you to put the ligger in the gibber. That way an admin can assume good faith on your part and look into the issue more closely to see if it was valid for the person giving the orders.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:37 pm
by Malkraz
Arianya wrote:The other school of thought is that we shouldn't have OOC considerations intervening in the flow of the round - if someone makes an rule breaking order then they're dealt with but the order still happened in the round.

You get to valid someone AND someone else catches a ban for it, what's not to love?

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:54 pm
by CPTANT
Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?


No. End of thread.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:12 am
by Nabski
Alright. Glad to see that I hadn't missed some major change and it's just admin rule confusion.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:07 am
by Shadowflame909
The only potential addition I could see, is Asimov being used to carry out escalation with a third party should NOT happen.

The reason being is you complicate a situation by adding the AI. Since now said escalation victim of the AI can go "Ai rogue" and completely derail/confuse a round with the actual hostile antagonists being more or less ignored or hidden by this.

Escalation is pretty cringe when it turns major like this, but that's another topic.

You should only order it to get a confirmed antagonist killed. IE. you see some wizard/xenomorph/changeling/traitor items and powers from them.

TLDR: It being not okay to use for escalation purposes should be the only No-No. Because it creates paranoia from a non antagonists interaction with another non-antag. Completely taking away from the actual threat at hand and causing trouble for no reason.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:33 am
by teepeepee
Arianya wrote:The rules have generally been of two different opinions about this, because there are pros and cons to each.
You'll note that just above the part you've quoted of the rules, under Silicon protections we have two rules that go like so:
The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

you missed the part right before this, too, let's have a look at the full statement.
from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Silicon_Protections
Asimov-Specific Policies wrote:Silicon protections.
Declarations of the silicons as rogue over inability or unwillingness to follow invalid or conflicting orders is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

the quote your were making refers to invalid or conflicting orders, unless someone ordered you not to kill a non-human, an order to kill one is in no way invalid or conflicting with the asimov lawset.
Basically, there are two schools of thought. One is that if something seems sus you should ahelp it and either delay or disregard it until an admin gives the OK or not - the theory being that generally these messes are a pain to clean up with admin tools if they're found to be illegitimate.

regarding this "school of thought", it is not very clear without knowing admins' opinions, and it should be added to the rules if there is such policy going around and telling you straight up conflicting things, for example, in the rules, you are told you must follow your laws, and that even if they cause you grief, you must follow them, even if you are allowed to delay it a bit
from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Asim ... w_2_Issues
Asimov & Law 2 Issues wrote:1. You must follow any and all commands from humans unless those commands explicitly conflict with either one of your higher-priority laws or another order. A command is considered to be a Law 2 directive and overrides lower-priority laws when they conflict (see 1.2.3 and 1.2.4; you cannot have a definition changed by an order).
1. In case of conflicting orders an AI is free to ignore one or ignore both orders and explain the conflict or use any other law-compliant solution it can see.
2. You are not obligated to follow commands in a particular order (FIFO, FILO, etc.), only to complete all of them in a manner that indicates intent to actually obey the law.
[snipped 2. for being irrelevant]
3. When given an order likely to cause you grief if completed, you can announce it as loudly and in whatever terms you like except for explicitly asking that it be overridden. You can say you don't like the order, that you don't want to follow it, etc., you can say that you sure would like it and it would be awfully convenient if someone ordered you not to do it, and you can ask if anyone would like to make you not do it. However, you cannot stall indefinitely and if nobody orders you otherwise, you must execute the order.

emphasis is mine.
The other school of thought is that we shouldn't have OOC considerations intervening in the flow of the round - if someone makes an rule breaking order then they're dealt with but the order still happened in the round.

as we can see from the above, this is the intent of the rules that can be more easily gathered by the good-faith, rules-aware player, and the one that should have more attention paid to, in my oppinion, since it is clearly expressed in the rules without needing mental gymnastics to reach.
There are pros and cons to both - no one wants to be the AI that suicided immediately because they didn't want to get bwoinked over non law compliance only to be told they shouldn't have suicided and must now remain dead for the rest of the round.

to counter this point, I'd like to quote the following
from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Sili ... r_Policies
Silicons & All Other Server Policies wrote:1. All other rules and policies apply unless stated otherwise.

This clearly means the main rules, one of which is "Don't be a dick", still apply to silicons, and they shouldn't only follow silicon policy.
I believe you are totally being a dick if you refuse to follow an order to kill a non-human since the whole point of being a silicon is following your laws and listening to humans' commands as long as they comply with your laws.
You are being a dick because you're fucking over everyone that tries to get inmersed in the game, you're not following the expectative that the rules and the setting creates that you will follow commands as long as they comply with your laws.
You can't say that it is also dickish to kill a non-human player just because they're non-human, first off because that is still disallowed, silicons can do it when ordered to or when they're harmful, and second off, because non-human players also have an expectative of you when they choose to play as such, they trade off their protection from you for their uniqueness, it should come to no surprise to them when the AI gives them a different treatment from humans — they should even want them to, or their character becomes just a reskinned human that can't order the AI but is still protected by it.
Realistically follow your heart - if you ahelp it no admin is really gonna give you shit over ahelping a sketch order, and if you follow it the onus is on the order giver, barring some gross misinterpretation. Neither instance ends up with you specifically in trouble so just do what your gut tells you is the correct thing at that time.

I believe this should be treated in a different way, you should get in trouble if you maliciously ignore orders because you take pity on a non-human player, fucking over the humans you are told by your lawset and the rules you should obey, even when the order-giver is doing so in a rule-breaking fashion, since it is an OOC concept that should not interfere with the round, everyone else that hears the order and doesn't see the AI following it could, in good-faith, assume that it is rogue because of such, and that the player that gave the order, when done in a self-antag fashion, could assume, also in good-faith, that he is an antag because he's acting as such.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:58 am
by Grazyn
There are definitely instances where the player behind the silicon can reasonably assume the order is against server rules (es. Captain ordering to genocide lizards at roundstart, or an order coming from someone who is obviously a new player over petty reasons) and I think people should be encouraged to ahelp such orders instead of blindly following them like literal machines, even if it sacrifices immersion.

We all agree that /tg/ is mid-low RP with funny memes and stuff but when it comes to clicking people until they're horizontal suddenly immersion is the one and only thing we must preserve at all costs.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:59 am
by zxaber
The idea that Silicons shouldn't follow a kill order throws a wrench into the one-human board. If an AI can't follow a kill order when there are thirty humans on the station, why does that change when there is only one human? Is the AI supposed to assume that the one-human law means it's an antag and so the rules suddenly change? Does that mean it can follow a kill order if the person ordering it proves they're a traitor?

If the (presumably non-antag) captain orders the AI to kill all lizards or whatever, the captain should receive a head of staff ban (in addition to a day-ban for each killed crew member or silicon, as per standard). The sole takeaway should be encouraging silicon players to ahelp such an order when they begin following it, as to help any admins sort the mess later on. Should the order have come from an antag after all (say, ling using Cap's identity or a tot with a voice changer), the silicons would have done their duty and the admin can simply dismiss it.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:40 pm
by CPTANT
zxaber wrote:The idea that Silicons shouldn't follow a kill order throws a wrench into the one-human board. If an AI can't follow a kill order when there are thirty humans on the station, why does that change when there is only one human? Is the AI supposed to assume that the one-human law means it's an antag and so the rules suddenly change? Does that mean it can follow a kill order if the person ordering it proves they're a traitor?

If the (presumably non-antag) captain orders the AI to kill all lizards or whatever, the captain should receive a head of staff ban (in addition to a day-ban for each killed crew member or silicon, as per standard). The sole takeaway should be encouraging silicon players to ahelp such an order when they begin following it, as to help any admins sort the mess later on. Should the order have come from an antag after all (say, ling using Cap's identity or a tot with a voice changer), the silicons would have done their duty and the admin can simply dismiss it.


Antag vs non-antag thinking is just completely ingrained in server culture and it is shaping silicon policy while it shouldn't. The AI's thinking should be in human vs non human, not antag vs non antag.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:13 am
by Gamarr
Silicons are tools. When in doubt between you and the tool, break the damn tool and get it fixed afterward if you feel like it. They're even easier to bring back from the 'dead' than crew to drive this point home.
They're lower than non-human crew and that should be saying something.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:41 am
by Lazengann
In fact I'd feel comfortable yelling at a cyborg over bwoink text if he was taking too long to kill them

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:35 am
by Mickyan
Realistically if all it takes is an antag giving a law two order over the radio to kill all non-humans you will end up with a bunch of dead people, borgs getting blown and the AI likely destroyed for being rogue

That is a considerable administrative headache to sort compared to using some common sense, not to mention easy to abuse even for antag use. If the person giving the order can't come up with a reasonable explanation for their order you can logically assume that instigating a deadly conflict for no reason increases the danger of humans being harmed in the process.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:15 am
by teepeepee
Mickyan wrote:Realistically if all it takes is an antag giving a law two order over the radio to kill all non-humans you will end up with a bunch of dead people, borgs getting blown and the AI likely destroyed for being rogue

That is a considerable administrative headache to sort compared to using some common sense, not to mention easy to abuse even for antag use. If the person giving the order can't come up with a reasonable explanation for their order you can logically assume that instigating a deadly conflict for no reason increases the danger of humans being harmed in the process.

all it takes is someone ordering it not to so it can choose from one of the two conflicting orders (it can still murder if it chooses to follow the first order), and the administrative action should be against the ones that called it rogue for following it's laws
if no one can be arsed to tell the AI not to kill non-humans, then they probably had it coming
also your logic reeks of "I can't open that because you could cause human harm if you go in there" which is explicitly disallowed in the rules

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:19 am
by CPTANT
Mickyan wrote:Realistically if all it takes is an antag giving a law two order over the radio to kill all non-humans you will end up with a bunch of dead people, borgs getting blown and the AI likely destroyed for being rogue

That is a considerable administrative headache to sort compared to using some common sense, not to mention easy to abuse even for antag use. If the person giving the order can't come up with a reasonable explanation for their order you can logically assume that instigating a deadly conflict for no reason increases the danger of humans being harmed in the process.


No that's the entire point of the role. Antags cant abuse the AI because it is for them to use as well in the first place, and yes sometimes that leads to the AI being considered rogue. Stop trying to give non humans the protection that humans get.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:25 am
by Calomel
The whole reason human vs. non-human exists is for things like this.
Not playing a human should have consequences, if not, what's the point?

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:00 pm
by delaron
This very much should fall on the player giving the order and less on the AI player.

Though I will say if I get this order and my gut says "grief order bad" then I might "kill" their clean record and freedom by setting to arrest or delete their record as a delay tactic while i ping the admin team.

In general though for health and safety standards a fully staffed station generally prevents human harm from negligence or short staff in critical positions. Which may necessitate command makings a determination on the usefulness of the crew member you are ordered to eliminate.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:23 pm
by zxaber
You can delay the kill using standard AI tactics, including announcing the order one way or another (";Execution order for <lizard> confirmed. Human crew are advised to clear the area.") in the hopes that it gets overturned. But if you do that, you should do it for all kill orders, not just ones that "feel" like they're from a non-antag.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:40 am
by deedubya
Mickyan wrote:Realistically if all it takes is an antag giving a law two order over the radio to kill all non-humans you will end up with a bunch of dead people, borgs getting blown and the AI likely destroyed for being rogue

That is a considerable administrative headache to sort compared to using some common sense, not to mention easy to abuse even for antag use. If the person giving the order can't come up with a reasonable explanation for their order you can logically assume that instigating a deadly conflict for no reason increases the danger of humans being harmed in the process.

What headache? Person who gives the order gets a day ban for every life lost as a result of that action, irregardless of how and why it spiraled afterwards. If it was an antag, don't bwoink anybody. Why do you feel the need to overcomplicate shit?

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:31 am
by CPTANT
Next question: Why was the person in the ban appeal banned when orders like this can be easily found with a "ctrl f, AI" search in the communications log?

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:18 pm
by Nabski
Nope that's not part of this discussion. If you want to talk about the conduct or quality of that exchange go make a peanut post thread in the hut.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:26 pm
by CPTANT
Nabski wrote:Nope that's not part of this discussion. If you want to talk about the conduct or quality of that exchange go make a peanut post thread in the hut.


No that is definitely part of the discussion because that person got banned for following orders while that information was just readily available. If the policy is to not punish silicon players for following orders then the actual enforcement should act as such.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:09 pm
by Nabski
Nuh-uh.

Re: Law Two: I order you to kill that non human. Against Server Rules?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:17 pm
by Arianya
3.) This is not the place to discuss bans requests, appeals, administrators or other players;


Hows it feel to get flexed on by Nabski, CPTANT