/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:07 pm**

Imagine readying up to play a game of paranoia-laden roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station, only to find out that you have been tricked into playing a round of extended with no paranoia to be had, no mysteries to be solved and no antags to be dealt with. You are trapped with just the tiders and have next to no purpose for the reminder of the round.

Why is Secret Extended still a thing? At least with the regular Extended one can instantly tune out after it is announced within 5 minutes of the game.

Thoughts?

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:14 pm**

Situations that are massive "gotcha"s where nothing was actually wrong in the first place are common fundamental subversions within the suspense genre

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:28 pm**

Istoprocent1 wrote:with no paranoia to be had

thats the point. there actually was paranoia, there was just no reason to be paranoid.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:41 am**

yeah the no paranoia mode is non-secret extended

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:42 am**

also yada yada sextended was our 5th most popular mode ahead of several antag-toting modes at last poll, it's a bit old now but the principle stands, etc etc.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:58 am**

secret extended is a massive fuckin' shitter-detector though 'cause any admins observing know damn well that none of the unfolding chaos was sparked by antags stirring the pot

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:14 am**

straight up this is dumb

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:49 am**

No.

In all seriousness, being a shitter on secret extended should carry larger punishments instead of "o its to be expected"

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:22 am**

yeah it's shit. be honest it's extended so people who don't like it can leave

i only like extended when there's something time consuming i want to do that would normally would be interrupted and that isn't often. the fact that it still exists highlights lasting problems with the game, e.g. round length vs. antags and job progress vs. antags

i think the former stems at least in part from A) not enough opportunities for dead people to re-enter the round as something with fun long term gameplay and B) an inability to efficiently rebuild the station

A could be fixed simply by just allowing crew to respawn in a new job as a random character after X minutes (coupled with opening job slots once held by dead crew) and spawning more antags. or with more effort by adding new ghost roles or midround antags

B could be fixed simply with a rebuild method bound only by some limited resource and not also dependent on player time and effort. coding the ability to return a tile to its roundstart state might precipitate that.

B could also be fixed with more effort by rebalancing construction not to be such a finicky slow pain in the ass but i don't see anyone bothering with that anytime soon. i'd rather a magical device (and "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") with a limited capacity to turn tiles back to what they were (or something similar) which was properly balanced than things as they currently are. right now if a department is bombed the best you can hope for is a floor with stretch goals being atmosphere and lights

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:58 am**

Istoprocent1 wrote:hur dur no antag me mad

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:10 pm**

Tarchonvaagh wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:hur dur no antag me mad

It is almost if people dislike having part of the game missing.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:17 pm**

Arianya wrote:also yada yada sextended was our 5th most popular mode ahead of several antag-toting modes at last poll, it's a bit old now but the principle stands, etc etc.

That is super low for a mode that is so fundamentally different from others. Was that a simple what do you like most poll? Did you ever run a poll for most disliked mode?

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:24 pm**

Entitled antagroller/validhunter gets shit on by people who actually get the point. More at 11.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:59 pm**

deedubya wrote:Entitled antagroller/validhunter gets shit on by people who actually get the point. More at 11.

"For what he said was truth, was naught but more lies." - Judas 4:20

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:20 pm**

If you remove antags SS13 is just a shitty building game/rpg and I honestly wonder if that is the genre you want why people don't just go play Minecraft, factorio or space engineers or something.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:37 pm**

if you remove antags its just SS13 without antags. The players still drive the round as they do when antags are present.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:48 am**

Secret extended was added because most players would log off or suicide at the extended announcement. For some reason, tricking people into believing they're not playing a mode they dislike was considered a better solution than just removing such mode.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:24 am**

I'd like to talk about jump scares. And bare with me, this is related.

A good jump scare isn't just a loud noise and a sudden image flashing on scream causing an involuntary physical reaction, a good jump scare warms you up. It makes you think maybe something is coming, their is a looming sense of dread that builds and builds and just when you think its coming... the moment passes and the threat is gone. THEN when you are relaxed it shows you what you expected.

Its about working up your expectations, slashing them and then giving it to you when you think you are safe.

If every single round is guaranteed action packed, if you KNOW from a weighted value that your round will have X amount of action, then you are not playing a paranoia/horror game, you are playing an action game. If you play and you expect a bomb and then there is no bomb so you start checking people coming into engineering, you take down a wall because you could swear you heard a bomb timer, you send some poor bastard down the disposals because you swear they pulled a gun on you. And you are scared, your're sure you're going to die any minute, you escape on the shuttle waiting for that explosion. And then the round ends. Secret Extended.

That is what this game should be about.

Secret extended is REQUIRED to heighten the paranoia, to give pause between the madness WITHOUT you knowing its a green shift.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:53 am**

peoplearestrange wrote:I'd like to talk about jump scares. And bare with me, this is related.

A good jump scare isn't just a loud noise and a sudden image flashing on scream causing an involuntary physical reaction, a good jump scare warms you up. It makes you think maybe something is coming, their is a looming sense of dread that builds and builds and just when you think its coming... the moment passes and the threat is gone. THEN when you are relaxed it shows you what you expected.

Its about working up your expectations, slashing them and then giving it to you when you think you are safe.

If every single round is guaranteed action packed, if you KNOW from a weighted value that your round will have X amount of action, then you are not playing a paranoia/horror game, you are playing an action game. If you play and you expect a bomb and then there is no bomb so you start checking people coming into engineering, you take down a wall because you could swear you heard a bomb timer, you send some poor bastard down the disposals because you swear they pulled a gun on you. And you are scared, your're sure you're going to die any minute, you escape on the shuttle waiting for that explosion. And then the round ends. Secret Extended.

That is what this game should be about.

Secret extended is REQUIRED to heighten the paranoia, to give pause between the madness WITHOUT you knowing its a green shift.

Nonsense, there are plenty of quiet moments in regular round rotation to give the same effect without artificially cutting out part of the game.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:35 am**

peoplearestrange wrote:If every single round is guaranteed action packed, if you KNOW from a weighted value that your round will have X amount of action, then you are not playing a paranoia/horror game, you are playing an action game.

ding dong the witch is dead

You just indirectly hit the nail in. Modern tg players do think they're playing an action game. That's why they don't understand the value of secret extended, or of secret in general.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:35 am**

CPTANT wrote: Nonsense, there are plenty of quiet moments in regular round rotation to give the same effect without artificially cutting out part of the game.

I mean if you're talking about "part of the game" secret extended has been part of the remit since I've been around, 2013.

The game is more than just murder R us. Its why their is engineering, its why there is cargo, its why there is a bar and Chaplin, its why there is a courtroom! The "game" is about player interaction with a detailed sim esq' game that contains such things as atmospheric simulation, crafting, building, roleplay and culinary interests. NONE of these thing disappear in extended, if anything they are highlighted.

EDIT:

deedubya wrote: ding dong the witch is dead

You just indirectly hit the nail in. Modern tg players do think they're playing an action game. That's why they don't understand the value of secret extended, or of secret in general.

Maybe you're right but its literally in our fluff text "space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden round-based roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station" If people can't live by this then honestly they need to go else where.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am**

deedubya wrote:
You just indirectly hit the nail in. Modern tg players do think they're playing an action game. That's why they don't understand the value of secret extended, or of secret in general.

Im quite new compared to others and I disagree

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm**

I do get that some people think it adds to the game, but in my humble opinion it doesn't. There are multiple problems with the mode:

a) there are no antagonists to make things interesting and people start tiding out of boredom
b) people who want to do autism projects would probably much rather have an announced extended and grind away for 60+ minutes without having to fear for the "15 minute wizard or rev any% speedrun"
c) secret extended causes pointless fatigue for the security players who are actively playing the game instead of afking half of the time watching youtube videos or funny cat pictures on the interwebs

Spoiler:

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:54 pm**

Istoprocent1 wrote:a) there are no antagonists to make things interesting and people start tiding out of boredom

>I didn't roll antag and I can't see any antags to validhunt, so I'll killbait and self-antag instead

b) people who want to do autism projects would probably much rather have an announced extended and grind away for 60+ minutes without having to fear for the "15 minute wizard or rev any% speedrun"

>Everything has to go perfectly according to plan or I won't even bother attempting to do what I want to do

c) secret extended causes pointless fatigue for the security players who are actively playing the game instead of afking half of the time watching youtube videos or funny cat pictures on the interwebs

>I only play security to validhunt, rather than do my actual job

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:10 pm**

deedubya wrote:>I didn't roll antag and I can't see any antags to validhunt, so I'll killbait and self-antag instead

Some of us don't play the game as a Minecraft building sim. While you are pushing the example to the extreme of 2016-2017 Scuff Gerald and Brick Carr territory, the reality is that the game is bland and boring without anything interesting happening.

deedubya wrote:>Everything has to go perfectly according to plan or I won't even bother attempting to do what I want to do

Some people like to play the game as a Minecraft building sim and these people should be able to do that from time to time knowing that only things that are happening are a) random events and b) admins pushing buttons.

deedubya wrote:>I only play security to validhunt, rather than do my actual job

While you or your "extreme" example might be only playing the game for one reason and one reason only, it is not the case for most of us.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:36 pm**

Istoprocent1 wrote: Some of us don't play the game as a Minecraft building sim. While you are pushing the example to the extreme of 2016-2017 Scuff Gerald and Brick Carr territory, the reality is that the game is bland and boring without anything interesting happening.

You play what was originally an atmospheric space simulator for the action? There are a LOT better space action games if you want that.

Istoprocent1 wrote: Some people like to play the game as a Minecraft building sim and these people should be able to do that from time to time knowing that only things that are happening are a) random events and b) admins pushing buttons.

Again you're missing the point of interaction. People interact without antags. Building is, if anything just an engineers game and ultimately fairly one man project (unless someone else decided they want to get ropped in).

Istoprocent1 wrote:I do get that some people think it adds to the game, but in my humble opinion it doesn't. There are multiple problems with the mode:
a) there are no antagonists to make things interesting and people start tiding out of boredom

You've described the round type and then something that happens in every round regardless (trust me from an admin pos this happens EVERY round).

Istoprocent1 wrote: b) people who want to do autism projects would probably much rather have an announced extended and grind away for 60+ minutes without having to fear for the "15 minute wizard or rev any% speedrun"

That part is true, but in my experience announced extended (green shift) causes all but people with projects to simply afk rather than even attempting interaction or waiting around for an event to happen (people are incredibly impatient when they think they know the ending)

Istoprocent1 wrote: c) secret extended causes pointless fatigue for the security players who are actively playing the game instead of afking half of the time watching youtube videos or funny cat pictures on the interwebs

Im confused here, are you saying you'd rather security just AFK rather than playing the role they selected?

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:40 pm**

Are we allowed to have a round where we can just fuck about or have an opportunity for an admin event instead of validhunting all fucking round or worrying about some murderboner ruining everyone's day? Sure, it can get boring sometimes, but A break is needed every once in a while. Not like you fuckers vote on gamemodes anyways.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:59 pm**

Reyn wrote:Are we allowed to have a round where we can just fuck about or have an opportunity for an admin event instead of validhunting all fucking round or worrying about some murderboner ruining everyone's day?

Yes, its called announced extended.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:25 pm**

Reyn wrote:Are we allowed to have a round where we can just fuck about or have an opportunity for an admin event instead of validhunting all fucking round or worrying about some murderboner ruining everyone's day? Sure, it can get boring sometimes, but A break is needed every once in a while. Not like you fuckers vote on gamemodes anyways.

haha what a faggot go play gaia online

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:40 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote:That part is true, but in my experience announced extended (green shift) causes all but people with projects to simply afk rather than even attempting interaction or waiting around for an event to happen (people are incredibly impatient when they think they know the ending)

Its like people who don't want to play the uninteresting non-structured building sim can opt out?

peoplearestrange wrote:Im confused here, are you saying you'd rather security just AFK rather than playing the role they selected?

Let me help you out. I sign up to a game where things happen and where my job is useful and interesting. There is nothing for the security to do other than deal with the pointless tiders (griefers), if there are no actual antags. While a guy who signed up as an engineer can have a good time doing their autism project, a chemist can have a good time doing chems and so on. The gameplay for security is far from it. If you ever played security for any amount of time you would understand this.

Instead of tricking players into signing up to a gamemode their job is not suited for or they are not interested in, there should be just Extended where everybody knows and understands whats up. It makes more people turn away from the game if anything.

Nobody is playing the game as an "interactionless action game" as you would put it.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:48 pm**

people like deedubs and isto who think they represent all of tg is why the coderbase remains seperate.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:18 pm**

If you don't want to arrest people for minor IC crime/grief, aka greytide, then security probably isn't for you. Extended would be boring as hell without these so called griefers-- to a certain extent, they make the game fun. If you're just here to fight antags, I'd recommend Call of Duty or Rainbow Six Siege.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:28 pm**

BeeSting12 wrote:If you don't want to arrest people for minor IC crime/grief, aka greytide, then security probably isn't for you. Extended would be boring as hell without these so called griefers-- to a certain extent, they make the game fun. If you're just here to fight antags, I'd recommend Call of Duty or Rainbow Six Siege.

I don't see you playing security, does that mean you are playing Call of Duty or Rainbow Six Siege?

Extended is boring as hell as well as Secret Extended, which is why people suicide when Extended is announced and why people need to be tricked into playing the game in hopes that its not Secret Extended. There is literally no reason to brig greytiders for 1 minute sentences and I personally am not interested in taking people out of the round during Extended when greytiding or so called griefing is encouraged, "because otherwise the game would be boring" as you would put it.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:36 pm**

I'm not much of a fan of extended either but you are aware that you are capable.of doing your own projects right? You aren't limited to only what is expected of your job even in rounds with antags. Like beesting said, if you don't enjoy bullying tiders then why are you playing sec. Secret or announced you will still have some people to deal with and conflicts to resolve. You are a peace keeper as sec and someone will always be there to disrupt it and it's your job to deal with them no matter how minor.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 pm**

Do randoms events occur on secret extended?

You straight up said you dont like extended secret or announced. If I recall they regularly spam calling the shuttle on green shift as soon as its available. Part of the charm of ss13 is creating your own stories. Secret extended doesn't provide the false sense a security that green shift extended does and thus has a place in how you go through that stories steps.

Just because you don't get joy from a game style doesnt make it worthless. Secret extended offers the chance to tell different stories with that same level of high tension and paranoia. Also makes micro events the admins run a little easier to contain and grow.

If we are voting I vote keep it. It has great application to the themes of SS13

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:09 am**

Kangtut wrote:I'm not much of a fan of extended either but you are aware that you are capable.of doing your own projects right? You aren't limited to only what is expected of your job even in rounds with antags. Like beesting said, if you don't enjoy bullying tiders then why are you playing sec. Secret or announced you will still have some people to deal with and conflicts to resolve. You are a peace keeper as sec and someone will always be there to disrupt it and it's your job to deal with them no matter how minor.

Doing your own problem only makes sense for like half the station jobs, the other half just has nothing to do.

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:32 am**

The only argument against it I have is that Medical doctors rely upon around death and pain, and Chaplains don't really have a job. It's just RP or admin appeasement (This is super rare, mostly because of bad prayers and admins having chaplain sounds off)

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:17 pm**

CPTANT wrote:Doing your own problem only makes sense for like half the station jobs, the other half just has nothing to do.

If assistants with no access are capable of getting all the tools needed to work on their extended projects then so can any other job. Not all projects have to be massive autism forts either. You just have to be creative.

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:04 pm**

Kangtut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Doing your own problem only makes sense for like half the station jobs, the other half just has nothing to do.
If assistants with no access are capable of getting all the tools needed to work on their extended projects then so can any other job. Not all projects have to be massive autism forts either. You just have to be creative.

You can say this but the truth is ss13 without antagonists doesn't have any merit over so many other creative games in my opinion.

Yes I can try very hard to make my doctor/AI/security green shift fun.

Or I can just play something else instead.

Antagonists are ss13's unique selling point and what sets it apart from other games in roughly the same genre, take that away and it is just a mediocre game because there is no goal, no real npc challenge and creative projects are reset every round.

Let's say someone recreates ss13 piece by piece without antagonists. Why would I play this game over so many other options?

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:25 pm**

CPTANT wrote:
Kangtut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Doing your own problem only makes sense for like half the station jobs, the other half just has nothing to do.
If assistants with no access are capable of getting all the tools needed to work on their extended projects then so can any other job. Not all projects have to be massive autism forts either. You just have to be creative.
You can say this but the truth is ss13 without antagonists doesn't have any merit over so many other creative games in my opinion.

Yes I can try very hard to make my doctor/AI/security green shift fun.

Or I can just play something else instead.

Antagonists are ss13's unique selling point and what sets it apart from other games in roughly the same genre, take that away and it is just a mediocre game because there is no goal, no real npc challenge and creative projects are reset every round.

Let's say someone recreates ss13 piece by piece without antagonists. Why would I play this game over so many other options?

Mid round antags can still spawn during announced extended and the crew is allowed to create their own conflicts. Most crew don't deal with antags anyway unless they're on the receiving end of a gun/esword. I can't imagine that anyone beyond sec and valid hunters find anything fun from the average antag since most antags don't do much anyway. I've said it before but most greytiders cause more problems for the station than the designated antagonists and there is nothing wrong with that. A green shift allows you to deal with these people in more creative ways and maybe even allow you to RP as the space cop you are supposed to be rather than the iron fisted judge dredd that most rounds require you to be.

I'm not saying extended is a great or even a good mode, it can be damn boring for someone like me, but it still has its place.

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:38 pm**

hahahha "Antagonists are ss13's unique selling point" what the hell are you talking about!? EVERY action game has antagonists. MANY multiplayer games have enemies/antags played by human players.

SS13 selling point is its peoples interactions based around overly complicated mechanics in a space station.

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:49 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote:hahahha "Antagonists are ss13's unique selling point" what the hell are you talking about!? EVERY action game has antagonists. MANY multiplayer games have enemies/antags played by human players.

SS13 selling point is its peoples interactions based around overly complicated mechanics in a space station.

Antagonists in the form of unknown threats of course. The fact that your coworker may or may not be a traitor that will blow you up, or a cultist that will sacrifice you to some dark god or having an evil artificial intelligence that will open airlocks for you at very inconvenient timings.

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:02 pm**

Kangtut wrote:If assistants with no access are capable of getting all the tools needed to work on their extended projects then so can any other job. Not all projects have to be massive autism forts either. You just have to be creative.

Thats the thing. There are no expectations for assistants. I have no problem with announced Extended and while I personally am not a big fan, it lets me know that "hey, its okay to go and do anything you like, instead of focusing on doing your actual job". On a normal round its bad form to randomly go afk mining as an officer etc.

Antags are to security is like hull breaches are to engineers. No engineer wants to spend 2 hours just changing lightbulbs every 3rd round, when they are expecting to be useful.

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:46 pm**

oranges wrote:people like deedubs and isto who think they represent all of tg is why the coderbase remains seperate.

Isto things he's speaking on behalf of /tg/. I know for a fact I'm not, I just argue for what it should be.

also how would the codebase being integrated give either of us power over it lmao

Posted: **Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:50 pm**

deedubya wrote:
oranges wrote:people like deedubs and isto who think they represent all of tg is why the coderbase remains seperate.
Isto things he's speaking on behalf of /tg/. I know for a fact I'm not, I just argue for what it should be.

also how would the codebase being integrated give either of us power over it lmao

I don't think I have ever claimed to represent anybody other than myself and my point of view on the matters. Policy threads are meant to be for discussing policies, amirite? These are just my 2cents.

Ultimately /tg/ is represented by its community and there could be polls to figure things out.

Posted: **Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:08 am**

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Kangtut wrote:If assistants with no access are capable of getting all the tools needed to work on their extended projects then so can any other job. Not all projects have to be massive autism forts either. You just have to be creative.
Thats the thing. There are no expectations for assistants. I have no problem with announced Extended and while I personally am not a big fan, it lets me know that "hey, its okay to go and do anything you like, instead of focusing on doing your actual job". On a normal round its bad form to randomly go afk mining as an officer etc.

Antags are to security is like hull breaches are to engineers. No engineer wants to spend 2 hours just changing lightbulbs every 3rd round, when they are expecting to be useful.

There isn't much expectations for anyone during extended. Yes engineers still have to set up power and medical should still heal/clone, but that is true of any round type. That is besides the point anyway.
Point is: extended has its place and any job is viable during it if you play it right. Sec doesn't become any less needed than it already is and if things are really so lacking in conflict, then you have easy access to some weapons and robust space suits and can go explore space or even build Fort Kickass or something since getting tools and materials is easy for any job.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:04 pm**

security has hull breaches all the time in the form of assistants, some of which are more of a pita than the antags would have been had they existed.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:31 am**

Honestly, rather than entertain the idea of removing Secret Extended, we should add in Fake Extended as well, if we don't already have it.(I don't recall seeing it) Maybe it'd teach people to stop treating extended as a fucking tider's free for all, and maybe bring higher RP standards as SOP starts getting enforced. I bet 95% of the playerbase don't even know what the fuck SOP even is.

tl;dr on fake extended: It's a green alert shift, and all SGs are available, but traitors are still rolled as though it were a secret round.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:33 am**

The problem is that sec doesn't care about the sop on normal rounds either

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:36 am**

Then like I said, maybe enforcing those standards needs to be something that's done more often. Just enforcing the rules and standards we already have in place more often would make a shockingly positive difference to this community.

/tg/Station 13

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