"Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

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"Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #56934

Bottom post of the previous page:

Basically, Saegrimir or however you spell it made an OOC announcement that "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob" is now bannable. I wans't sure totally what that meant, so I sought clarity.

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/discuss.

Edit: I later mentioned there should be a thread made about this new rule, so at the very least people know who were not on or weren't paying attention when that rule was made.
Last edited by chesquatt on Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #57550

Saegrimr wrote:
chesquatt wrote:"LIZARDS SHOULDN'T BE ON THIS STATION" or "EVERY LIZARD SHOULD BE SHOVED IN AN OVEN" I should be able to so long as I am not doing any of these things.
Someone then agrees with you.
Two more speak up and also yell "YEAH FUCK LIZARDS"
Soon you have about 12 or so all riled up ready to form a lynch mob.

I've seen it happen enough times. Just stop.
Right, so why are you going to ban the guy who "Riled people up" rather than the people who got riled up? Your acting like there is some kind of inevitability involved when people yell "GAS THE LIZARDS" that people get riled up and do that shit. People have free will and reason, and they use those words as an excuse to do bullshit, if the captain says "Clowns don't belong on this station" and someone goes off and kills the clown it wouldn't make much sense to ban the captain and the guy who killed the clown.
Individual accountability should take precedent over some "group responsibility," are you gonna ban someone for running alongside a lynchmob but not actually doing anything, or for saying "I support the greytide freedomfighters" even though they themselves are just sitting at their post?

Saying "gas the lizards" does not initiate a mind control sequence that forces people to go batshit. Sentient people make the decision to use it as an excuse, and should be punished, even if some assistant is saying "I think someone should torch science" and someone does, that does not make it the assistant's fault, it is the fualt of the sentient and independent person who made the choice to go and ACTUALLY torch science. The guy who said "Someone should torch science" or "Fucking kill the clown, shithead stole X" should be punished IC for "conspiring to X," but only banned if they themselves took the action.
Last edited by chesquatt on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by danno » #57551

the bottom line here is that I can yell "GREYTIDE WORLDWIDE" and go start a riot
or just yell "I SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM" and go start one to the same effect

it's not the initial nonsense you scream, it's what you do afterwards and what other people do
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #57552

danno wrote:
it's not the initial nonsense you scream, it's what you do afterwards and what other people do
Right, that is what I am saying. If the initial nonsense indirectly gets the singulo release, or someone lynched (whatever happens) then the person to blame is the person who picked up that nonsense and turned it into a reason to fuck up the station.
But "I SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM" can be loosely considered "entertaining the idea of a lynchmob" if after the fact someone hops the counter and beats the chef to death for the icecream cart. You can then be punished for saying "I SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM."

There is clearly a gap in fault, intention and action between someone saying "Shove a lamp up his ass" and someone tieing down the clown and ACTUALLY shoving a lamp up his ass.

Unless we are going to make a new rule that somehow makes your character subordinate to some greyshit yelling "SLIT EVERY MIME'S THROAT" that takes away one's freewill not to, there is not reason to ban the greyshit who is yelling. You ban the guy whos actually killed the mime.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by dezzmont » #57554

danno wrote:the bottom line here is that I can yell "GREYTIDE WORLDWIDE" and go start a riot
or just yell "I SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM" and go start one to the same effect

it's not the initial nonsense you scream, it's what you do afterwards and what other people do
The problem is when you scream something intentionally inflamatory.

While in both situations it is clear the mob was looking for an excuse to behave poorly, and no one should pretend you mind controlled people, there is a point where you end up actively trying to instigate bad behavior and should be held accountable too.

This isn't just because deliberately trying to start shit, even if other people need to actually take the plunge with you, is clearly a jerk move. It is because those shouts can get people on the edge, or even people who are relatively ok, to get swept up into a mob mentality, and because it can cause shitty activity to become larger and more organized. People looking to start shit usually just steal shoes or something and try to instigate valid fights, but when it looks like a mob may start they may push for a mob and get what they want on a much more distruptive scale.

As a side note, the reason for our broad overarching rules of behavior are not so admins don't have to give examples you can toe the line around. When pressed an admin should be able to give an example of behavior falling into that category and behavior that doesn't, or judge example situations with that dreaded "but situation" disclaimer. That used to literally be a method to test how good an admin you would be. However examples aren't there to be the beginning or ends of rules. The rules are never going to be a set "You can or can't do this specific thing" except in highly controversial areas, like silicon rules, and usually that is a stopgap while something better is developed.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Aurx » #57587

But people react to certain nonsense and not others. And they don't react if not given something to react to.

This is similar to giving a random assistant a laser gun during a rev round. Sure, you don't force them to use it. But they can only use it because you provided them the opportunity to use it. If they use it, it's only because you initiated the series of events. Therefore, you are directly responsible for the shots fired.
Except with "GAS THE LIZARDS", you're handing intent out to everybody. Odds are very good that at least one jackass is going to take you up on that proposition.

This is something so likely to cause grief to occur that we're simply banning it outright.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #57613

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Jaimon » #57625

Aurx wrote:But people react to certain nonsense and not others. And they don't react if not given something to react to.

This is similar to giving a random assistant a laser gun during a rev round. Sure, you don't force them to use it. But they can only use it because you provided them the opportunity to use it. If they use it, it's only because you initiated the series of events. Therefore, you are directly responsible for the shots fired.
Except with "GAS THE LIZARDS", you're handing intent out to everybody. Odds are very good that at least one jackass is going to take you up on that proposition.

This is something so likely to cause grief to occur that we're simply banning it outright.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #57639

Aurx wrote:But people react to certain nonsense and not others. And they don't react if not given something to react to.

This is similar to giving a random assistant a laser gun during a rev round. Sure, you don't force them to use it. But they can only use it because you provided them the opportunity to use it. If they use it, it's only because you initiated the series of events. Therefore, you are directly responsible for the shots fired.
Except with "GAS THE LIZARDS", you're handing intent out to everybody. Odds are very good that at least one jackass is going to take you up on that proposition.

This is something so likely to cause grief to occur that we're simply banning it outright.
You can't lazer a lizard to death with words. Your analogy simply makes no sense.
Its more like one assistant handing another assistant a lazer and telling him to kill someone. Nobody is forcing him to kill anyone, the assistant has no reason to follow an order like that other than their own will to do so. If someone was a captain, or an HoS who told the assistant to go out and lynch the lizard, then sure.
But if the Chaplain yells "CAST YE BODIES TO THE VOID, YOUR LIVES ARE WORTHLESS" and the whole station flings themselves out the airlock, the chaplain didn't murder them, it is everyone else's fault for being dumbfucks. Same goes for someone murdering a lizard, if someone is just sniffing for an excuse to murder somebody they ARE going to find an excuse. But it shouldn't be against the rules for people to say things inflammatory IC. MAYBE against the station's law, MAYBE. But making this an OOC issue is heavy-handed as fuck.



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Seems to be the general consensus on singulo.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Timbrewolf » #57706

chesquatt wrote: -snip-
That's a real slippery slope you're highlighting there. The people who actually do the things will always be held accountable for them. It's been ages since it happened but people who used to run right to the console and detonate everything just because some random asshole yelled "ROGUE BORGS!" while being arrested would often get at least yelled at, if not some measure of punishment for jumping to conclusions. But at the same time, the person who initially yelled it would be eating a dayban for every borg that got exploded because of their stupidity.

End result: people don't frivolously yell that anymore, nor do people haphazardly explode the borgs on a whim. Win/win. The system works!

It's really hard to define what will or will not constitute enough "egging on" of activity where people will be knocking on your door when Assistant McDipshit has savaged a lizard in the hallways. That's going to be on you guys, the leaders of these groups, to be careful with. The smart decision would be not to give fiery speeches that would incite violence in the first place, no? Maybe just organize your own little groups and avoid the topic of outright genocide in general? So when someone actually goofs and kills someone you can say "I was staunchly non-violent in speech and manners the whole time! Not my fault!".

If you're worried about your own defense, about stepping over the line and getting caught for something that's kind of hard to define here's a really good suggestion: stay away from the line. Don't approach the line. Come up with something else and if other idiots get fired up and go do something stupid you should be able to clearly say "I didn't tell him or inspire him to do shit."

RE: Escalation

If you guys are doing your shtick somewhere and not actually antagonizing someone, and someone else runs in and bombs you all, adminhelp it. That guy's going to get dunked.
If someone responds to you saying something mean by trying to toolbox you, feel free to toolbox them back. Killing someone over saying something mean has never been valid escalation.

Otherwise you shouldn't be attacking people. And you should also be careful not to be harassing the same players round after round or it starts to look an awful lot like metagrudging.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Void Slayer » #57716

Giving someone a weapon and telling them to murder someone is being an accessory to murder.

People get banned for >murdering without a reason as non antag.

The assistant who is given the laser gun would be equally guilty and banned.

This lynch mob shit is basically a conspiracy to commit murder.

This isn't that hard to understand, do not call for the unprovoked harassment or death of people without a IC escalation reason.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Timbrewolf » #57721

Charles Manson is serving life in prison and he never killed anybody.

Don't be Charles Manson.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #57986

An0n3 wrote:-snip-
I am glad we are on the same page here. That if yo uare actively egging on and directly inciting and encouraging a lynching, you SHOULD be held accountable.
Just the other round I made an anti-lizard labor union. We had a newsfeed called "The Human Worker" or "Pure Nanotrasen" can't remember. We also said shit like "Lizards steal human jobs and don't belong in the workplace" We got lizards fired from their positions by threatening a strike, and we got humans promoted from assistant. It was functioning. We DID spew hate speech, we did declare people traitors to the human race. We said VERY inflammatory things, on purpose to rile people up, but only to get them to sign union papers. There was no "Greytide lynchmob" formed, even though there was hate speech against lizards.

What we can conclude is that speech does not cause these lynchmobs to form. There were a SHIT ton of murders that round, safe to say a few at least were non antag. People found another excuse and killed someone, that happens. But I myself never called for anyone to kill any lizards, neither did the union even though we did call for a "call to arms by human workers for their rights"

My point here is that my speech did not incite the mob, but COULD be considered "entertaining the idea." This ruling is general enough to lockout that kind of roleplay that is engaging, causes minor contradiction and allows for emergent gameplay.

If the ruling was "Do not intentionally incite or encourage a mob" with the decision as to what is "intentional" at the discretion of admins to avoid "toeing the line," that would work. But leaving it up to the discretion of the admins as to what is "entertaining the idea of a lynchmob," is how you put it, a "slippery slope."

So your right, don't be Charles Manson, but if you become more like Jesus or Muhammad it should not be your fault when someone takes what you say and beats the clown to death, with "they took er jerbs" or even "Gas the lizards" said in passing. Now, however (like in my recent jobban) when someone plays the chaplain, and follows the mob around shouting "STRIP THAT FUCKER NUDE, GET THAT SCALY FREAK OUT" and someone somewhere else murders the fuck out of a lizard and yells "SCALEY FUCK, HUMAN POWER," that seems like a fair jobban, totally fair. But if someone says some shit like "LIZARDS DESERVE WHAT THEY GET" or "LIZARDS SHOULD BE PUT TO WORK IN EITHER MINING OR AS ASSISTANTS." And someone takes that as the greenlight to murder the fuck out of a lizard, unless the "Screamer" was watching said murder happen and cheering it on, there should be no punishment.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58020

chesquatt wrote:So your right, don't be Charles Manson, but if you become more like Jesus or Muhammad it should not be your fault when someone takes what you say and beats the clown to death, with "they took er jerbs" or even "Gas the lizards" said in passing. Now, however (like in my recent jobban) when someone plays the chaplain, and follows the mob around shouting "STRIP THAT FUCKER NUDE, GET THAT SCALY FREAK OUT" and someone somewhere else murders the fuck out of a lizard and yells "SCALEY FUCK, HUMAN POWER," that seems like a fair jobban, totally fair. But if someone says some shit like "LIZARDS DESERVE WHAT THEY GET" or "LIZARDS SHOULD BE PUT TO WORK IN EITHER MINING OR AS ASSISTANTS." And someone takes that as the greenlight to murder the fuck out of a lizard, unless the "Screamer" was watching said murder happen and cheering it on, there should be no punishment.
Jesus said none of those things.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58024

cedarbridge wrote:Jesus said none of those things.
Proverbs 30:28

The lizard you may grasp with the hands, and strangle it.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58025

Saegrimr wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Jesus said none of those things.
Proverbs 30:28

The lizard you may grasp with the hands, and strangle it.
Solomon wasn't Jesus. Go to bed.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by bandit » #58115

cedarbridge wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Jesus said none of those things.
Proverbs 30:28

The lizard you may grasp with the hands, and strangle it.
Solomon wasn't Jesus. Go to bed.
Mark 1:40-42
And a man with a scale-disease came up to him pleading with him, and kneeling he said to him, "If you are willing, you can cleanse me." And moved with compassion, he stretched out his hand and touched him and said to him, "I am willing; be cleansed!" And at once the scale-disease left him and he was cleansed.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58121

cedarbridge wrote:Jesus said none of those things.
If there were lizards on his station he might have.
My point is that if someone either misinterprets what you are saying, or uses it as an excuse, you yourself should not be banned unless it is clear to an admin that that was your intention.
And a man with a scale-disease came up to him pleading with him, and kneeling he said to him, "If you are willing, you can cleanse me." And moved with compassion, he stretched out his hand and touched him and said to him, "I am willing; be cleansed!" And at once the scale-disease left him and he was cleansed.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58206

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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58208

cedarbridge wrote:Image
I hope you see how this situation differs wildly. If I was shouting "X PLAYER IS ROGUE" then sure. But even if I were to claim "ALL LIZARDS ARE ROGUE" only someone itching for a reason would take that as the go ahead to murderbone a random lizard. Where as it is totally plossible and not all that rare that the AI is rogue and it's borgs are doing sketchy shit. The person should be held accountable that kills the random lizard, not even the guy who claimed all lizards are rogue. Same goes for the guy who starts screaming "JIMBUTT MCASSDICK IS ROGUE I SAW IT," and promtly gets him poor JimButt lynched.
If I was Wormtongue'ing this guy into murdering the lizard, sure, i get it. But If I am on a soapbox saying "ALL LIZARDS ARE CONSPIRING AGAINST NT" and someone murderbones a lizard and when BWOINKed goes "I was forced into it by chaplain's speech! I simply couldn't control myself" How the fuck can you blame the "screamer."
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Aurx » #58217

UNWANTEDACTION is grounds for a ban.
QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION.
Therefore, QUESTIONABLEACTION is grounds for a ban.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58281

chesquatt wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Image
I hope you see how this situation differs wildly. If I was shouting "X PLAYER IS ROGUE" then sure. But even if I were to claim "ALL LIZARDS ARE ROGUE" only someone itching for a reason would take that as the go ahead to murderbone a random lizard. Where as it is totally plossible and not all that rare that the AI is rogue and it's borgs are doing sketchy shit. The person should be held accountable that kills the random lizard, not even the guy who claimed all lizards are rogue. Same goes for the guy who starts screaming "JIMBUTT MCASSDICK IS ROGUE I SAW IT," and promtly gets him poor JimButt lynched.
If I was Wormtongue'ing this guy into murdering the lizard, sure, i get it. But If I am on a soapbox saying "ALL LIZARDS ARE CONSPIRING AGAINST NT" and someone murderbones a lizard and when BWOINKed goes "I was forced into it by chaplain's speech! I simply couldn't control myself" How the fuck can you blame the "screamer."
I'm having a hard time understanding how you cannot see the difference between "saying mean things" and "inspiring a lynchmob." Intent is very obvious when viewed even casually. Your example of something shunting blame to a speaker is not really believable. Soapbox shitstirring is not some sort of voodoo mind control. Nobody is going to say "but he made me because he said mean things about lizards!" Somebody following a mob will almost always respond "well, so-and-so was doing it" or "I was just with X,Y,and Z and everyone seemed on-board." Mobs aren't individuals by definition.

Also, I keep seeing you talk about "interesting rp" and such things. That sounds really great, but then you don't actually get the 1-6 ahelps in any given round where the "hurr lizards evil lynch they" shit starts up. The question always loops back to "interesting or fun for whom?" and the answer is almost always "Well, I enjoyed it so I thought everyone else did too."
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by bandit » #58299

Aurx wrote:UNWANTEDACTION is grounds for a ban.
QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION.
Therefore, QUESTIONABLEACTION is grounds for a ban.
The problem is in "QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION," because it's often more like "Person does UNWANTEDACTION (who was going to do it anyway, regardless), blames it on UNRELATEDACTION (to save his ass/get someone else in trouble)." I can see a lot of banbaiting coming out of this.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Aurx » #58324

bandit wrote:
Aurx wrote:UNWANTEDACTION is grounds for a ban.
QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION.
Therefore, QUESTIONABLEACTION is grounds for a ban.
The problem is in "QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION," because it's often more like "Person does UNWANTEDACTION (who was going to do it anyway, regardless), blames it on UNRELATEDACTION (to save his ass/get someone else in trouble)." I can see a lot of banbaiting coming out of this.
Honestly this is really more a case of PLAYERBASE causes FEATURE to lead to UNWANTEDACTION. The real correct fix would be to remove FEATURE, but that's apparently not on the table so a workaround is all administration can do. It's not the best possible solution, but it's the best one we have the ability to implement.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #58342

Aurx wrote:
bandit wrote:
Aurx wrote:UNWANTEDACTION is grounds for a ban.
QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION.
Therefore, QUESTIONABLEACTION is grounds for a ban.
The problem is in "QUESTIONABLEACTION leads to UNWANTEDACTION," because it's often more like "Person does UNWANTEDACTION (who was going to do it anyway, regardless), blames it on UNRELATEDACTION (to save his ass/get someone else in trouble)." I can see a lot of banbaiting coming out of this.
Honestly this is really more a case of PLAYERBASE causes FEATURE to lead to UNWANTEDACTION. The real correct fix would be to remove FEATURE, but that's apparently not on the table so a workaround is all administration can do. It's not the best possible solution, but it's the best one we have the ability to implement.
I'm honestly at the point where removing lizards is looking like a good fix.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58362

cedarbridge wrote: Soapbox shitstirring is not some sort of voodoo mind control. Nobody is going to say "but he made me because he said mean things about lizards!"
Cool, so then you concede that "soapbox shitstirring" (except in the case of a not-so-rogue" borg) does not in and of itself cause people to go out and murder lizards, even if That is what is being explicitly said by some randofuck in the library reading from "race war now pt. 1."

If the "soapbox shitstirrer" is not "voodoo mindcontroling" the mob, and not themselves forming it, then why do they bare responsibility for what a mob is doing, or what an individual is doing, if they are on the other side of the station when the mob started doing it's thing.
When you BWOINK the mob members they go "Well I fought rac wer wuz sterted so i needed 2 bash izzard wiff crowbar" there is no way in fuck an admin would be all "OH COOL, CARRY ON IT'S CLEAR YOU HAD NOTHING TO TO WITH IT AND THAT YOU LOST YOUR FREE WILL."
If someone IS being a charlie manson and is leading people into science and clasping their hands and cheering whilst shaven headed thugs burn a lizard to death, that isn't "Enticing the mob" that is leading a mob.
saying "ALL LIZARDS ARE SCUM," or "EVERY LIZARD IS A TRAITOR" is "enticing a mob," but is not violent or at all destructive independant of individuals taking it as a reason to superbone a lizard because "they sayed rac wer startd so I had 2 do it," or "he sayed all the izzards is tator so I was jus killing valid."
Last edited by chesquatt on Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #58376

If that's a concern with running the gimmick, why start it in the first place? If you're so concerned that someone involved is going to kill somebody, doesn't that show that it's probably not a good idea?

Besides, you don't get a dayban like the murderer does. You get bwoinked and maybe assistant banned.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58413

Vekter wrote:If that's a concern with running the gimmick, why start it in the first place? If you're so concerned that someone involved is going to kill somebody, doesn't that show that it's probably not a good idea?

Besides, you don't get a dayban like the murderer does. You get bwoinked and maybe assistant banned.
I mentioned a round where I followed the gimmick to the letter and nobody was killed except one lizard by the tator other miner. It's totally possible and common for the gimmick not to result in a tidal wave of blood. It only turns into that when people who were going to kill someone anyway, kill and use the gimmick as their reason.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58429

bandit wrote:I can see a lot of banbaiting coming out of this.
So stop screaming about various rioting and you won't catch shit for it.
Vekter wrote:I'm honestly at the point where removing lizards is looking like a good fix.
I'd rather just close the thread, and continue to ban the players who can't think logically. They'll fix the problem for us, vocally.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58437

chesquatt wrote:
cedarbridge wrote: Soapbox shitstirring is not some sort of voodoo mind control. Nobody is going to say "but he made me because he said mean things about lizards!"
Cool, so then you concede that "soapbox shitstirring" (except in the case of a not-so-rogue" borg) does not in and of itself cause people to go out and murder lizards, even if That is what is being explicitly said by some randofuck in the library reading from "race war now pt. 1."

If the "soapbox shitstirrer" is not "voodoo mindcontroling" the mob, and not themselves forming it, then why do they bare responsibility for what a mob is doing, or what an individual is doing, if they are on the other side of the station when the mob started doing it's thing.
When you BWOINK the mob members they go "Well I fought rac wer wuz sterted so i needed 2 bash izzard wiff crowbar" there is no may in fuck and admin would be all "OH COOL, CARRY ON IT'S CLEAR YOU HAD NOTHING TO TO WITH IT AND THAT YOU LOST YOUR FREE WILL."
If someone IS being a charlie manson and is leading people into science and clasping their hands and cheering whilst shaven headed thugs burn a lizard to death, that isn't "Enticing the mob" that is leading a mob.
saying "ALL LIZARDS ARE SCUM," or "EVERY LIZARD IS A TRAITOR" is "enticing a mob," but is not violent or at all destructive independant of individuals taking it as a reason to superbone a lizard because "they sayed rac wer startd so I had 2 do it," or "he sayed all the izzards is tator so I was jus killing valid."
So we agreed that something obviously not one thing is not that thing, and you leap to the conclusion that it is then okay to do said thing. The mind boggles. People are legitimately influenced by words. That doesn't require a lack of responsibility on their part. The person yelling "fire" in a theater fnr is a jackass and gets in trouble for causing a riot just as much if not more than the guy who actually tramples some poor jerk rushing out of the building. Both are shitty, and the instigator is "just using words" but it is legitimate influence. If you can't really understand how words influence people, maybe you should try being less social. If you're worried your words are going to possibly be used as an excuse to get you in trouble, maybe you should use less retarded words in the future.
Vekter wrote:I'm honestly at the point where removing lizards is looking like a good fix.
We both know this wouldn't solve anything because the problem predates lizards.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #58450

chesquatt wrote:
Vekter wrote:If that's a concern with running the gimmick, why start it in the first place? If you're so concerned that someone involved is going to kill somebody, doesn't that show that it's probably not a good idea?

Besides, you don't get a dayban like the murderer does. You get bwoinked and maybe assistant banned.
I mentioned a round where I followed the gimmick to the letter and nobody was killed except one lizard by the tator other miner. It's totally possible and common for the gimmick not to result in a tidal wave of blood. It only turns into that when people who were going to kill someone anyway, kill and use the gimmick as their reason.
Do you really give us that little credit, though? If someone used that as a blatant excuse and wasn't involved, we would very easily be able to find out. They would get banned and you would get no punishment.

We punish the guy who started it because we assume, if you're going to start a gimmick like this, you should be able to exert a modicum of control over what's going on. If you show AN OBVIOUS ATTEMPT TO STOP ANY KIND OF MURDER, then your chances of being banned shrink drastically.

Or, y'know, you could try and find a player-derived RP event that didn't result in people wanting to murder each other.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58459

Vekter wrote: Do you really give us that little credit, though? If someone used that as a blatant excuse and wasn't involved, we would very easily be able to find out. They would get banned and you would get no punishment.

We punish the guy who started it because we assume, if you're going to start a gimmick like this, you should be able to exert a modicum of control over what's going on. If you show AN OBVIOUS ATTEMPT TO STOP ANY KIND OF MURDER, then your chances of being banned shrink drastically.

Or, y'know, you could try and find a player-derived RP event that didn't result in people wanting to murder each other.
I give most of you the credit you deserve. I know DAMN well that most of you aren't gonna ban the librarian in most of these shitty hypothetical situations. Most of you are decent admins that I have no problem with. The problem is when there is an admin who interprets a wildly vague rule in a drastically different manner than most the others and bans someone for "entertaining the idea of a lynchmob," even though all they did was say from their library "LYNCH HE IZZARD."
I REALLY don't think that most of you are going to ban for a shitty reason, I really do trust you. But it's too much being thrown to the wind if some admin decides saying "LYNCH HE" is the same as saying "BLOW THE BORGS."
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58475

chesquatt wrote:"LYNCH HE" is the same as saying "BLOW THE BORGS."
I'd look for a better example. These two are functionally the same.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58478

chesquatt wrote:But it's too much being thrown to the wind if some admin decides saying "LYNCH HE" is the same as saying "BLOW THE BORGS."
Please explain to me how "LYNCH [target]" is different from "DETONATE [target]" aside from the resulting explosion.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58488

Saegrimr wrote:
chesquatt wrote:But it's too much being thrown to the wind if some admin decides saying "LYNCH HE" is the same as saying "BLOW THE BORGS."
Please explain to me how "LYNCH [target]" is different from "DETONATE [target]" aside from the resulting explosion.
"LYNCH [insert demographic]" vs " BLOW BORGS"
Borgs are indeed often ALL working for a rogue AI, its an actual concern on the station. There is a console in RD to blow them ALL up at once.
To say "LYNCH LIZARDS" is very general, nobody is going to believe that every lizard is rogue, and there is no button you can press to blow all the lizards up at once.

It's also very clear that when someone yells "LYNCH THE IZZARDS" its about a "shitty unfun" gimmick not an actual possible threat to the station.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58490

So the difference is "Its easier to blow the borgs and they might be rogue, therefore its not okay, but it takes some effort to lynch lizards and they might not be rogue so it should be okay"?
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58491

Saegrimr wrote:So the difference is "Its easier to blow the borgs and they might be rogue, therefore its not okay, but it takes some effort to lynch lizards and they might not be rogue so it should be okay"?
The difference is that it is plausible that blowing the borgs is a rational action
It's never rational to lynch all the lizards.
Therefore saying "LYNCH EVERY LIZARD" is either an empty threat, said in jest, or obviously to be ignored.
where as "BORGS ARE ROGUE, AI IS ROGUE, SHIIIT"makes people start reaching for the console because that DOES happen and that IS part of the solution.

If you yell "FIRE" in a movie theatre, people panic
If you yell "THE GOLDEN HORDE IS ATTACKING" in a movie theater people don't panic. You just look and sound crazy. That's because one DOES happen, and IS a concern, while the other one is NOT a threat because it's fucking crazy.
Last edited by chesquatt on Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58493

chesquatt wrote:The difference is that it is plausible that blowing the borgs is a rational action
It's never rational to lynch all the lizards.
Therefore saying "LYNCH EVERY LIZARD" is either an empty threat, said in jest, or obviously to be ignored.
where as "BORGS ARE ROGUE, AI IS ROGUE, SHIIIT" people start reaching for the console because that DOES happen and that IS part of the solution.
So this is a purely meta circumstance?

Amazing.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58494

Saegrimr wrote: So this is a purely meta circumstance?

Amazing.
Your saying people are going to RP to think that every lizard is rogue and start killing them because they are RP'ing that hard, and IC they have no idea that all the lizards are ACTUALLY not rogue?
Your serious? "MY character didn't know it was against the rules of the server."

"I let the singulo loose because I was RP'ing a character with down syndrome and it would be meta for me to just know how to do it right"
people bring meta knowledge to the game. People just magically know without asking their CE how to take a window apart. It is totally valid and okay for someone to say "the over shift" "next shift" "This is my 100th shift," People even have continuous "meta" character friendships within a boundary. But it is too "meta" for someone to know better than to lynch all the lizards?


Amazing.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58500

chesquatt wrote:
Saegrimr wrote: So this is a purely meta circumstance?

Amazing.
Your saying people are going to RP to think that every lizard is rogue and start killing them because they are RP'ing that hard, and IC they have no idea that all the lizards are ACTUALLY not rogue?
Your serious? "MY character didn't know it was against the rules of the server."

"I let the singulo loose because I was RP'ing a character with down syndrome and it would be meta for me to just know how to do it right"


Amazing.
I'm not sure what level of cognitive dissonance is going on here that you can give two examples of essentially the same thing and claim they are different, twice, but i'm done with this argument. Congrats. This is still against the rules no matter how much you hate lizards and want to "roleplay" getting everybody else to hate them enough to start a lynch mob.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58501

Saegrimr wrote:I'm not sure what level of cognitive dissonance is going on here that you can give two examples of essentially the same thing and claim they are different, twice, but i'm done with this argument. Congrats. This is still against the rules no matter how much you hate lizards and want to "roleplay" getting everybody else to hate them enough to start a lynch mob.
Whatever
The fact you still think that's what this discussion is about is ridiculous and speaks volumes on the kind of admin you are going to be.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Saegrimr » #58504

chesquatt wrote:The fact you still think that's what this discussion is about is ridiculous and speaks volumes on the kind of admin you are going to be.
Maybe I should put my Judge Dredd or Hitler avatar back on, I seem to be giving the wrong idea with the fart jokes.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58509

Saegrimr wrote:
chesquatt wrote:The fact you still think that's what this discussion is about is ridiculous and speaks volumes on the kind of admin you are going to be.
Maybe I should put my Judge Dredd or Hitler avatar back on, I seem to be giving the wrong idea with the fart jokes.
what an unfun gimmick
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #58518

How exactly would you have us handle the situation in the future? In a perfect world, how would you handle it?
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58525

chesquatt wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:
chesquatt wrote:But it's too much being thrown to the wind if some admin decides saying "LYNCH HE" is the same as saying "BLOW THE BORGS."
Please explain to me how "LYNCH [target]" is different from "DETONATE [target]" aside from the resulting explosion.
"LYNCH [insert demographic]" vs " BLOW BORGS"
Borgs are indeed often ALL working for a rogue AI, its an actual concern on the station. There is a console in RD to blow them ALL up at once.
To say "LYNCH LIZARDS" is very general, nobody is going to believe that every lizard is rogue, and there is no button you can press to blow all the lizards up at once.

It's also very clear that when someone yells "LYNCH THE IZZARDS" its about a "shitty unfun" gimmick not an actual possible threat to the station.
You still haven't said who is enjoying these "gimmicks" and who is having fun. Both "burgs rogue omg" and "gas the lizards" are both shitty excuses to be shitty to other players based on their grouping. Both lead to "unintended accidents" with equally shitty excuses for how nobody involved was at fault.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58555

Vekter wrote:How exactly would you have us handle the situation in the future? In a perfect world, how would you handle it?
Ban the people who kill the lizards and use someone's words as an excuse. Individual accountability.
Would you ban a guy for running along a lynchmob? If someone says "LYNCH A LIZARD" and 3 player get together and lynch a lizard, I would ban those players. If those 3 players dragged the lizard while sitll alive to this person and the person said "Kill it," then I would ban that person as well. But I would not ban someone (in this case) for words rather than actions.
cedarbridge wrote: You still haven't said who is enjoying these "gimmicks" and who is having fun. Both "burgs rogue omg" and "gas the lizards" are both shitty excuses to be shitty to other players based on their grouping. Both lead to "unintended accidents" with equally shitty excuses for how nobody involved was at fault.
The Human Worker's Union got big enough to bloodlessly unionize cargo. There were pizza parties and no lizards allowed. But the captain demoted 2 lizards after signing a contract with the HWU. Cargo had plenty of fun. I was eventually killed in a plot by a fly man and some rogue sec officer, that was emergent and fun, even though I died.
Of course someone looses out in RP, that is the situation with literally every situation in life. If we wanna turn the station into a hugbox we could always remove harm intent and security. I agree that someone forming a lynchmob is "unfun" but if the whole station was just nice to each other it would also be very boring, ever played yogstation? Who has fun in extended 2 hour rounds where fuck all happens? Who has fun when an admin presses the meteor button 9 times? some people do, others die and have to wait the rest of the round to play.

I bring up the HWU becuase thats an example though, where I used the same inflammatory speech and it didn't lead to a lynchmob, nobody was killed or lynched, but I could still be BWOINKED for enticing a mob.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #58560

You act like getting bwoinked is literally the worst thing in the universe.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by chesquatt » #58565

Vekter wrote:You act like getting bwoinked is literally the worst thing in the universe.
Repeated "BWOINKS" in this case can lead to a ban.
Violaceus wrote:By The Seven, so many words.

>assistant calls AI rogue once
>AI killed
>ban killers

>janitor spends whole round yelling AI rogue, trying to convince everyone all the time for no reason at all
>AI killed
>ban janitor

And this janitor situation happened to me yesterday.
Honestly, if there were rounds called "Race traitor" rounds where all lizards were antags, this would be a fair analogy. But there isn't.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Vekter » #58577

chesquatt wrote:
Vekter wrote:You act like getting bwoinked is literally the worst thing in the universe.
Repeated "BWOINKS" in this case can lead to a ban.
Your gimmick almost always leads to someone acting like an idiot and killing somebody. That person gets punished. The gimmick is becoming enough of an issue that we might hand out punishments for starting said gimmick because, nine times out of ten, someone ends up dying.

So yes, you are going to likely get punished if you keep doing something we're asking you not to do. We're asking you not to do it because it's causing problems.

Is there anything that's not clear about that?

E: And no, getting bwoinked doesn't lead to getting banned. Getting bwoinked, being asked to stop doing something and continuing to do it leads to a ban.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by cedarbridge » #58612

chesquatt wrote:
Vekter wrote:How exactly would you have us handle the situation in the future? In a perfect world, how would you handle it?
Ban the people who kill the lizards and use someone's words as an excuse. Individual accountability.
Would you ban a guy for running along a lynchmob? If someone says "LYNCH A LIZARD" and 3 player get together and lynch a lizard, I would ban those players. If those 3 players dragged the lizard while sitll alive to this person and the person said "Kill it," then I would ban that person as well. But I would not ban someone (in this case) for words rather than actions.
cedarbridge wrote: You still haven't said who is enjoying these "gimmicks" and who is having fun. Both "burgs rogue omg" and "gas the lizards" are both shitty excuses to be shitty to other players based on their grouping. Both lead to "unintended accidents" with equally shitty excuses for how nobody involved was at fault.
The Human Worker's Union got big enough to bloodlessly unionize cargo. There were pizza parties and no lizards allowed. But the captain demoted 2 lizards after signing a contract with the HWU. Cargo had plenty of fun. I was eventually killed in a plot by a fly man and some rogue sec officer, that was emergent and fun, even though I died.
Of course someone looses out in RP, that is the situation with literally every situation in life. If we wanna turn the station into a kickin' rad place to be we could always remove harm intent and security. I agree that someone forming a lynchmob is "unfun" but if the whole station was just nice to each other it would also be very boring, ever played yogstation? Who has fun in extended 2 hour rounds where fuck all happens? Who has fun when an admin presses the meteor button 9 times? some people do, others die and have to wait the rest of the round to play.

I bring up the HWU becuase thats an example though, where I used the same inflammatory speech and it didn't lead to a lynchmob, nobody was killed or lynched, but I could still be BWOINKED for enticing a mob.
Rule 1, Don't be a dick. Your gimmick isn't important enough to validate you literally going out of your way to be a dick to other people and then backtracking with "but muh RP." That's the cusp of it. As I've said, I get multiple ahelps from people so unexcited about your gimmick that they've been asking us (not us proactively) to shut down or squelch the noise. If you cannot understand this much, then there's really nowhere else to go. You're allowed to be mean and upset. You're not allowed to actively make things worse for others "just because." That's always been the rule. That's why we tell you to stop. That's why all the words in the world won't change that your whole gimmick here, just makes the game worse for others while amusing yourself.
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Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by Hibbles » #58810

Personal opinion time, although I guess if I post in policy discussion that should be assumed... anyhow.
Spoiler:
There are few things as annoying personally as SEC ROGUE from some little bitch, particularly since the only people who do it anymore are mostly the people who have no reason to complain/deserve every bit of what they get. I've told people to stop at is admin before that was a 'thing' in official policy, and I've given prisoners for the business for it as Security as much as possible.

Calling somebody a changeling or other antagonist without any actual reason to believe they are is also now acknowledged as an absolutely terrible, stupid thing to do. People act on random HELP BEING KILLED radio broadcasts since you usually don't have the time, or the shits to give, to try to Think Critically or Investigate. People are screaming Ai Rogue, it must be. Especially that one, even one random idiot yelling AI ROGUE as a clear joke can get my borgs murdered horribly. It happens less nowadays but there's always the chance. And frankly, the AI and borgs are so powerful that the crew feels like they can't afford to wait very long when reports come in, like other antags.
Anybody seriously going 'let's riot/greytide/lynch X' when it's not deserved should get wrecked. If it's just a casual radio message, then why bother over them?
RIP
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bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: "Entertaining the idea of a lynchmob"

Post by bandit » #58875

Saegrimr wrote:
bandit wrote:I can see a lot of banbaiting coming out of this.
So stop screaming about various rioting and you won't catch shit for it.
I generally don't scream about various rioting, I am just deeply uncomfortable with anyone being punished for griefing besides the griefers themselves. Believe it or not, you can take the opinion "Activity X shouldn't be banned" without actually personally participating in Activity X.

I don't understand how this isn't clear-cut. Dumb radio shit exists in every round, and "RACE WAR RACE WAR KILL ALL LIZARDS" is not the same thing, fundamentally, as "AI ROGUE" or "HELP BEING KILLED." If someone decides to "use" that dumb radio shit as a "reason" for grief they were going to commit anyway, that is entirely on them. This isn't just about lizards, either -- I don't think shouting "GRAYTIDE" over radio should be bannable, but I think graytiding should, and in my view either the punishment for this generally happens backward (the radio guy gets banned, the actual graytiders get mostly ignored) or it's a moot point because the radio guy proceeds on to actual grief anyway (which probably happens in at least half of the lizard cases, making this discussion kind of pointless.)
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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