Labor Camp as Default Punishment

[Sheodir]

This has been on my mind for a while, and I might make a PR for it in the near future - but I believe that the cells should be entirely abolished, replaced with bigger perma, and the standard and only punishment for non-perma crimes should be the labor camp. Why? Because the "sentencing" isn't fun, and feels specially off in Manuel's MRP angle.

The game has a fair bit of abstraction, but you're still getting the odd disconnect of giving someone 5 minutes of sit-down for what are often pretty serious, even if not deadly - assault, theft, etc - and even in station time this is at best a few hours. It's also not really gameplay in any way. We basically made it illegal to remove people's radios from them during brigtime because it means the perp has literally NOTHING to do, and probably just afks the time away until they are free to shit again.

The Labor Camp is an interesting concept. It means how fast you get out will literally depend on how fast you work, it introduces a way harsher "bend" to punishment (it is corporeal, and there's an inherent risk to stepping out in Lavaland), and one can justify the risk assuages how "short" this punishment will be, since it's closer to punishment in an actual active military or other tense situations where the actual contents of the punishment are the deterrent, rather than its length.

Now, I can hear the complaints from here - Labor Camp kinda sucks in its current state. I'll be personally implementing these changes as we move ahead, but this would be the proper incentive to revamp it in preparation for this change. We would need a Processing center for Labor Camp Inmates so it isn't so jankily thrown in the hallways like so - Prisoner Mining Uniforms, which are worse than Miner's normal exosuit for this. Policy would be revisited for the amounts, and I'd honestly implement a major change to very minor crimes as how they're dealt in policy at the moment (make it first charge aprehension of all contraband, dock payment and possible demotion if Head, second charge harsher punishment) to avoid the one minute brig pnishment syndrome.

Feedback is welcome. I am a Sec Main, I'm used to aboos.

[RaveRadbury]

I support this idea, the concept of temporary holding cells with brig timers that are frequently set incorrectly or not at all can be problematic. It would be worth considering removing the small brig cells and instead working more cells into perma.

[Shadowflame909]

I agree

But whats worse is Brig is when you get gulagged improperly, so your items are either in sec. still in some locker, or strung outside and are unobtainable to you when you get back out.

improper gulag big cringe

[NecromancerAnne]

I never really got gulagged much but it was preferable to a sentence in a cell for sure.

One thing I wouldn't mind is a perma-gulagging option, which would maybe be something you could repurpose exile implants to do. I felt it was really weird you couldn't sentence people to hard labour for the remainder of the shift if you would otherwise have just executed them. And it at least gives them something to do for the shift.

[Farquaar]

Short-timer cells always felt silly to me. You’d spend ten minutes tracking dawn some petty criminal only for him to afk for his five minute sentence. I’d support a rework that phased them out.

[teepeepee]

Short-timer cells always felt silly to me. You’d spend ten minutes tracking dawn some petty criminal only for him to afk for his five minute sentence. I’d support a rework that phased them out.

if you wanted to go by the book, 10 minutes of tracking down = sparking a manhunt (1 minute for every 2 it lasts) and resisting arrest (1 extra minute) = 6 minutes on top of his sentence, so probably like 10 minutes, which means you get as much respite as time you spent

[Agux909]

Labor camp needs to be used more so whatever suggestion comes up pointing towards that direction I agree with. If someone commits a crime it would be better for them having to actually do something ingame to make up for it, as little it might be, rather than a minute or three of standing afk.

[Qbopper]

This is actually a pretty sweet idea

Is the generic holding cell standard on every map these days? If not, you'd probably want to replace some of the standard cells with that, so sec has somewhere to dump prisoners for a second before processing

[Stillplant]

Problem with gulag is, there's a random element in the form of ash storms. For longer sentences, that doesn't matter. But for shorter sentences, an unfortunately timed ash storm can drastically extend your time.

[CPTANT]

As a code solution having the same sort of auto stripping teleporter system the gulag has for the brig cells would make jailing someone much less of a hassle.

Currently it takes almost as long as the actual sentence.

[deedubya]

Problem with gulag is, there's a random element in the form of ash storms. For longer sentences, that doesn't matter. But for shorter sentences, an unfortunately timed ash storm can drastically extend your time.

enlightened man's thought: if you don't want to risk getting shipped down during an ash storm, don't tide into engineering for yellow mitts

[Agux909]

Problem with gulag is, there's a random element in the form of ash storms. For longer sentences, that doesn't matter. But for shorter sentences, an unfortunately timed ash storm can drastically extend your time.

And why is that a problem? Git gud and don't get brigged. Get brigged= dwi. Purely an IC potential consequence

[Istoprocent1]

As a code solution having the same sort of auto stripping teleporter system the gulag has for the brig cells would make jailing someone much less of a hassle.

Currently it takes almost as long as the actual sentence.

While the idea is good, the problem is that it doesn't search for contraband, unless you code it into the system to give a warning about somebody having an emag in their pocket. Now it would also open up a can of worms and become futile, if the system would then ignore conspicuous items, because an officer would still have to search manually for them.

[SkeletalElite]

As a code solution having the same sort of auto stripping teleporter system the gulag has for the brig cells would make jailing someone much less of a hassle.

Currently it takes almost as long as the actual sentence.

While the idea is good, the problem is that it doesn't search for contraband, unless you code it into the system to give a warning about somebody having an emag in their pocket. Now it would also open up a can of worms and become futile, if the system would then ignore conspicuous items, because an officer would still have to search manually for them.

Put whatever their stuff is stored in outside the cell and allow officers to either open it (if its a locker) or browse the contents (if its like the gulag.)

[Horza]

I support the idea to use the labor camp more, which would involve a rework on the lavaland side. It's fairly trivial to break out of the gulag, especially since most sec don't actually care to monitor the area, and the only real obstacle is a securitron by the door which is trivial to kill. The points and ID interfaces can be confusing to new sec or even old sec used to just brigging, and prisoners often don't know enough about mining to care to learn during punishment.

If the temporary brig cells are kept I would recommend making the windoors open and close dependent on an actual sentence being set. I remember one round a securitron got me because I was holding a baseball bat when there were hostile xenobio mobs aroun. Local ligger security responds to the call, takes me to brig, doesn't care to hear me out and just knows that pingsky got me for a reason, takes my things including the radio, ties me to the bed, sets me to wanted, and closes the windoor without setting any sentence time. Cue me sitting there for 10 minutes trying to get sec's attention before a passing lawyer manages to nag them into setting me free. Wanted status wasn't lifted because sec was incompetent, pingsky gets me again, and the same ligger throws me back into the brig without setting a sentence. I sat there another 5 minutes before a loneop blew up the station. It was great, let me tell you.

[Cobby]

put the entire brig on the lavaland wastes, then the station just focuses on transporting people there

[Flatulent]

having the prisoners in sight is always very valuable and if need arises it’s easy to storm perma and bring the niggers in line/shoot the unruly prisoners in cells with disablers into stamcrit

camp however is an entirely another story. You expose yourself to gibtonite, plasma fires and labor camp itself with outdoor area is way larger and harder to fight in. Plenty of cover against flashbangs and disabler spam. Dumping all prisoners there seems to be a terrible idea. Not to mention that one fucking dude can break the entirety of gulag out in mere seconds with little to no counterplay.

[Timberpoes]

What would the lawyer interaction be within this sphere?

Ordinarily a lawyer can at least see brigged prisoners and interact/communicate with them in that way.

Could there be an intercom tuned into a new Prisoner/Lawyer/Warden frequency (which would be coded into their headsets, sort of like a Brig Service channel) which would allow prisoners of all types to interact with key members of crew?

This would allow prisoners to talk to both the warden and the lawyer, requesting assistance such as food or medical help or equivalent, or just "Uh hey Lawyer, can you try convince them to get me off this rock?". I've seen a couple of rounds where solo Prisoners asked to be borged because there was nobody else in the Prisoner role and nobody around the prison area in general to interact with. At least the "Brig Service" intercom would provide some way of communicating with roles that you'd usually interact with.

Could definitely be one in perma, maybe one in the brig cells and one down on the forsaken labour camp asteroid?

[Timonk]

No

Personally I find just waiting and cooling down in a jail cell way better
Also stop hunting down people for petty crimes you're making everyone's day worse

[wesoda25]

If you want a prisoner gulagged, then gulag them. There’s absolutely no reason for this change.

[deedubya]

Also stop hunting down people for petty crimes you're making everyone's day worse

>security doing their job and stopping you from tiding is ruining your round

enlightened man's thought: if you don't want to risk getting shipped down during an ash storm, don't tide into engineering for yellow mitts

[Flatulent]

time to shoot Manuel players for breaking into jannie closet

[Timonk]

Ruining someone's round over petty crimes is not your job as sec

Whats the worst they could do with a pair of insuls that you can't stop?

[teepeepee]

Ruining someone's round over petty crimes is not your job as sec

Whats the worst they could do with a pair of insuls that you can't stop?

if there was no risk or downside involved with petty crime everyone would do it constantly and things would descend into the classic chaos spiral of all access getting loose, everyone gets bored and the shuttle gets called
if you risk being pestered all round by sec you also feel much more accomplished when you get away with it and it raises the skill level of players by teaching them how to deal with sec if they want their gamer gear

[Timonk]

AA isn't a petty crime

I dunno about you, but I don't like being pestered by sec for the whole shift just because I took a pair of insuls from tech storage

[cacogen]

full disclosure haven't read any of this. unless it's changed the time taken and point amounts on the reference thing you're given aren't equivalent and don't take into account setup/return time
while i would prefer mining and dying in lava to sitting in a cell it takes way too long in comparison

[Tarchonvaagh]

AA isn't a petty crime

I dunno about you, but I don't like being pestered by sec for the whole shift just because I took a pair of insuls from tech storage

Just don't take it hello???

[Sheodir]

full disclosure haven't read any of this. unless it's changed the time taken and point amounts on the reference thing you're given aren't equivalent and don't take into account setup/return time
while i would prefer mining and dying in lava to sitting in a cell it takes way too long in comparison

That's fine, the point isn't to make it equivalent. I'm fine with removing people for longer than the current timed brig if it is more interactive than what we currently have, although I'm also trying to fix the machine that sends people to gulag so it can be done faster and more thoroughly.

AA isn't a petty crime

I dunno about you, but I don't like being pestered by sec for the whole shift just because I took a pair of insuls from tech storage

Ruining someone's round over petty crimes is not your job as sec

Whats the worst they could do with a pair of insuls that you can't stop?

This is where you're mistaken, Sec's job isn't to ruin anyone's day in particular, BUT Sec's job is basically an advanced version of the janitor's - it is to keep order as long as possible in a lawless hellhole

If you allow people to get away scot free with insuls or other items that can be used for shittery, you're allowing that shittery to take place down the line. Even if it won't be that bad or some such, you're allowing an environment where chaos can rise more easily, much like a janitor does if he allows the station to look like shit with blood and guts everywhere

[Timonk]

Guts don't get created if people clean up after themselves and put trash in a trashcan

People won't be shitters if they didn't plan to in first place

[cacogen]

I'm fine with removing people for longer than the current timed brig if it is more interactive than what we currently have

I'm only fine with that for long sentences. I'd rather do 15 minutes gulag than AFK 10 minutes. Although knowing how players like to muck around and waste each other's time, it'd probably be more like 20.

[Timonk]

What would you even put there instead of the cells? A bigger than necessary wardens office?

[dirk_mcblade]

It's worth noting per security policy that brigging up to ten minutes is considered an IC issue and thus not addressed by admins but gulagging does not enjoy this same immunity. Therefore if you gulag someone you should be sure your ducks are in a row because an admin may weigh in on your decision. For that reason it shouldn't be considered a default punishment.