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Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:12 pm
by Arathian
The poll results are in: https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=223

It is overwhelmingly in favour of

Ash Walkers can invade the station at their will, with restrictions against mass destruction (such as SM delaminations).


So, let's discuss ashlizards with that framework in mind!

I'll write my personal thoughts below to keep this OP a bit more neutral.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:14 pm
by Arathian
First of all, the winning result was the one I personally voted for and I was extremely in favour for.

However, ashlizards should be given some restrictions, especially around "powergaming". For example, subverting the AI, or building mechs, or printing stuff etc should not be allowed or be limited for lizards.

Invading the station should be allowed but it should be focused around abducting crewmembers instead of just murderboning. Kill a couple, grab their corpses and sacrifice them to the tendril. It should also be done once the tendril is, at least, a bit secured. Just staying on the station and trying to kill as many as you can without any attempt to bring them back to lavaland to sacrifice should still be bannable. We have real antags for that already.

In general, I would prefer a code solution to it though. Ashlizards should be able to manipulate PCs (such as the shuttle PC) but be unable to manipulate machinery (so no lathes f.ex.). Also, crafting for them should be restricted to only tribal. That would balance them without making it an admin headache.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:57 pm
by confused rock
what was the point of rigging the vote anyways? I doubt many would've voted for "ash walkers can do whatever no restrictions" but if everyone wanted it everyone wanted it.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:04 pm
by Cobby
It was IRV

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:42 pm
by cybersaber101
I'm not a fan of this, ashwalkers are often the single worst players. literal bee lining to the shuttle killing anything they see. terrible. also lends themselves to:
>attack miner
>die, respawn
>bee line back to miner
>die
>waste all of the eggs
>disconnect

Edit: did I mention all while completely silent?

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:06 am
by zxaber
Now that the antag freeze is over, when I go to update the flavor text, I will also be able to add in restrictions of one egg per player per round. I'll probably also remove their ability to use mechs, as that was related to an incident that got the existing flavortext in the first place.

By the by, this is technically a code thing, not policy, since flavortext is not a config option.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:08 am
by confused rock
Not about it being irv, it's about how there should've been an option for invasion at will with no restrictions. if you think that's fucking stupid, well all that has to be is a popular opinion.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:08 am
by Arathian
zxaber, I think looted mechs should be allowed. Consider restricting them from being able to use any type of machinery so they can't print mechs or weapons or tools or anything really.

The idea behind ashlizards is "loot whatever you can".

Also 1 egg total is on the low side I feel. Can you consider tying it to how many eggs you have helped create/how many bodies you have sacrificed? Alternatively, could you at least make it 2 eggs/person?

edit: also, zxaber, check discord. I wrote to you there :)

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:11 am
by confused rock
reminder that anyone can dna lock a mech incredibly easy and the fact that one got one is so incredibly stupid on the crew's part that they deserve it

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:17 am
by RaveRadbury
zxaber wrote:I will also be able to add in restrictions of one egg per player per round.

Please don't do this.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:31 am
by Arathian
So me and zxaber had a talk about the code thing:

flavour text will be altered

Default egg spawn will be one (the initial one) but will be able to be increased by performing sacrifices

Ashlizards will be restricted from using machinery (not computers, so shuttle is still usable).

Ashlizards will be able to pilot mechs but not use guns on it.

Some form of revival for dead ashlizards will be added. I suggested surgery but zxaber thinks about sacrifices to the tendril. Either works really.


Zxaber is the programmer lad on this, so thank him for working on it!

Aside from that, no further comments. What do people think the flavour should be to match the poll we just had?

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:33 am
by Anuv
I'm glad this was done fuck miners. Some of the most memorable rounds involved ash lizard invasions

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:33 am
by Jack7D1
Adding a cap of 1 egg per player per round would hardcap total lizards to like 10. And by the middle of the round the whole tribe will be a ghost town due to the high mortality rate of ashwalkers. They're about strength in numbers after all! I would instead suggest adding a cool down between egg uses and a ban on spawning from egg if suicided like posibrain.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:33 am
by cybersaber101
Anuv wrote:I'm glad this was done fuck miners. Some of the most memorable rounds involved ash lizard invasions

absolutely haram

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:37 am
by zxaber
Seems I was a bit late, but to be certain here is the current plan laid out:

- Fluff text will be changed as per the vote
- Ash Walkers will be unable to operate machines
- Ash Walkers will be unable to use mech equipment (but still could melee; I'm not 100% on not just outright restricting all mech usage)
- Players will initially be limited to one egg per round. Bonus eggs awarded after a number of sacrifices (like two or three), and dragging a fellow dead Ash Walker to the nest will gib them but place the client into a new egg without using the player's respawns. If this happens, the Ash Walker that brought the body does not get credit towards bonus eggs (should the dead Walker's ghost be unavailable, it will just be a normal sacrifice for a new egg and will count as a sacrifice for the deliverer).

Edit:
Had a thought; if the tendril is being attacked, the spawning restriction might be temporarily removed, allowing players that are out of lives to spawn in.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:37 am
by Arathian
Anuv wrote:I'm glad this was done fuck miners. Some of the most memorable rounds involved ash lizard invasions


based and redpilled

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:02 am
by Cobby
remove the flavortext and force headmins to put it on the policy tab so we don't need PRs when they wanna change it.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:08 am
by cacogen
zxaber wrote:- Fluff text will be changed as per the vote
- Ash Walkers will be unable to operate machines
- Ash Walkers will be unable to use mech equipment (but still could melee; I'm not 100% on not just outright restricting all mech usage)
- Players will initially be limited to one egg per round. Bonus eggs awarded after a number of sacrifices (like two or three), and dragging a fellow dead Ash Walker to the nest will gib them but place the client into a new egg without using the player's respawns. If this happens, the Ash Walker that brought the body does not get credit towards bonus eggs (should the dead Walker's ghost be unavailable, it will just be a normal sacrifice for a new egg and will count as a sacrifice for the deliverer).

god no. just because a controversial option won don't run the role into the ground. who even wants to invade the station anymore? i'm content on lavaland
if the station can't fend off a minority with spears, poor armour and the inability to use guns then they're fucked

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:23 am
by cybersaber101
cacogen wrote:god no. just because a controversial option won don't run the role into the ground. who even wants to invade the station anymore? i'm content on lavaland
if the station can't fend off a minority with spears, poor armour and the inability to use guns then they're fucked


I enjoy different approaches indeed. like asking for tribute or making the base a new nest. wish you could move the tendril though.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:14 am
by zxaber
cacogen wrote:
zxaber wrote:- Fluff text will be changed as per the vote
- Ash Walkers will be unable to operate machines
- Ash Walkers will be unable to use mech equipment (but still could melee; I'm not 100% on not just outright restricting all mech usage)
- Players will initially be limited to one egg per round. Bonus eggs awarded after a number of sacrifices (like two or three), and dragging a fellow dead Ash Walker to the nest will gib them but place the client into a new egg without using the player's respawns. If this happens, the Ash Walker that brought the body does not get credit towards bonus eggs (should the dead Walker's ghost be unavailable, it will just be a normal sacrifice for a new egg and will count as a sacrifice for the deliverer).

god no. just because a controversial option won don't run the role into the ground. who even wants to invade the station anymore? i'm content on lavaland
if the station can't fend off a minority with spears, poor armour and the inability to use guns then they're fucked

Of all the options listed here, the only one that would affect non-station invaders is the respawn change (and perhaps the mech one if Ash Walkers ever allied with the free golems). Within that spawn change, you could get yourself a respawn if you manage to sacrifice a few monsters (which also allows for more ghosts to join), and there would be an ability for other Walkers to revive you using the tendril if you fall. If you're happy not invading, my intention isn't to force you into it.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:33 am
by cacogen
just change the fluff text and see if it causes the apocalypse you anticipate and then make changes from that informed position if it does

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:13 am
by Flatulent
as long as station exists they are a threat to ligs and vice versa.
i think they should be allowed to invade for the purpose of raiding(technology, weapons, armor, lathes etc),taking prisoners(kinky!!!!!), smashing cargo into bits.

A long term goal for liggers should be smashing some sort of machine onboard station to forever cuck the crew out of being able to mine on lavaland without white ship or that trade route ship. That would make exploration useful - cargo contains a fair amount of mats.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:09 am
by Sheodir
Arathian wrote:The poll results are in: https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=223

It is overwhelmingly in favour of

Ash Walkers can invade the station at their will, with restrictions against mass destruction (such as SM delaminations).


So, let's discuss ashlizards with that framework in mind!

I'll write my personal thoughts below to keep this OP a bit more neutral.

Personally I think the code solution would be elegant. I dislike vague policy making, and making Ash Lizards unable to interact with computers + flavor text of their technological ignorance would more than be enough. The SM delam can be the one part of policy that's clearly stated.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:54 pm
by Arathian
cacogen wrote:god no. just because a controversial option won don't run the role into the ground. who even wants to invade the station anymore? i'm content on lavaland
if the station can't fend off a minority with spears, poor armour and the inability to use guns then they're fucked


With 60% first choice, I don't think it can even be considered "controversial".

I also chose that option and I am a big fan of the ashlizards. I don't think any of these balances cripple them. Ashlizards who spawn and beeline for the station aren't playing it right anyway.

I didn't like the flat "one life" which is why I suggested tying it to sacrifices. That, along with the realistic possibility of revival, mean that ashlizards aren't any less likely to survive than average crew as long as they give the minimal effort to stay alive and try to do a few sacrifices along the way.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:23 pm
by knacker48
I'd request that you at least wait a week or two before you start making big changes, wait and see if they're actually needed. As I've said in the past, ashwalkers have so many hard counters, from from flashbangs, mechs, borgs and even just broken shards of glass, that the station can use to quite easily obliterate the ashwalkers that most of these restrictions will probably not be necessary.

Its also worth noting that, while yes ashwalkers will die fighting miners, a decent amount will also die from fighting the monsters on lavaland. Without the one advantage that ashwalkers have, the eggs, they would be forced to play much more conservatively and would be punished for experimentation when it comes to fighting most monsters on lavaland. I feel that putting a hard cap on how many eggs you can use would largely kill ashwalkers as a fun ghost role.

If you are are dead set on on slowing them down then why not go for a cooldown on taking on a new egg after you die? Lets say a miner kill you, you would have to wait a small amount of time, lets say 15 seconds or maybe more, that give the miner time to heal up a bit and maybe move somewhere else, making it harder for an ashwalker to beeline it to their position and finish them off. It would however have the downside of making defending the tendril much harder as a solo ashwalker or even in a small group as the tendril would die before you had a chance to respawn.

I will also concede that yes solo ashwalkers should not beeline it straight to the miner base without atleast getting a few eggs and either waiting for them to hatch or fortifying the base a bit. This could added to the 'protect the nest' part of the flavour text if people feel it necessary

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:10 pm
by Arathian
Here's the thing, these are reasonable restrictions. If we give the ashlizards the full greenlight and no changes, powergaming chucklefucks will abuse them to death as "free antag" and then some no-fun-allowed, ided retard will code in some crippling nerf that will make them never able to actually do anything fun.

It's better if we pre-empt both of these scenarios before the well gets poisoned.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:17 pm
by zxaber
I for-sure want to do the mech changes, because mechs remove pretty much every downside that Ash Walkers have (and because of the incident that occurred before the last fluff text change of a non-antag lizard robo that gave some Ash Walkers mechs to fight the station with).

The reason for the proposed spawn limit changes is because I don't think it's really fair for people to just body hop. We already see this with swarmers (which aren't so bad because they're prevented from killing and are generally super late in the round anyway, but it means they're nearly impossible to get rid of fully). I think most ghost-roles should have this restriction, and adding to Ash Walkers would sorta be a two-birds-one-stone thing. At the same time, the ability to get more respawns with sacrifices (and this would include Lavaland monsters) would give them a flavor-related way to plan for a future fight while allowing more players to join, and allowing friendly Ash Walkers to revive you via tendril (free of charge) would help if you're hunting in groups.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:24 pm
by halitosisman
If there was a "no restrictions whatsoever" option in that poll I would have taken it.

The general tendency among the Ash Walker groups I've been involved with is to play peacefully. If Ash Walkers always played the bloodthirsty marauders that they're supposed to be, maybe, although not assuredly, the crew would respect them as a threat and deal with them properly.

Giving ash lizards an artificial disadvantage against crew in their current state is silly. Pretty much any instance of an Ash Walker getting high tech equipment that you mentioned would require the walkers to a) breach the mining base, which the station should be locking down and securing when the walkers appear and b) get literally anywhere onboard the station with a a spear and no disguise. There is no reason why a competent AI and security force can't stop an Ash lizard invasion. The crew deserves to have their SM explode if the Ash Lizards reach it.

The idea of idea of tying player respawn to body recovery sort of makes sense though. I'd prefer to see a better reason than "I don't think it's really fair". The main issues that I see with body hopping are that a) Players would accumulate meta knowledge with each risky foray and death into the station and b) Ash Walkers should be encouraged to hunt as groups because social play is more fun (if only security players could be likewise coerced).

Would an egg limit of 2 or 3 per player be reasonable? Accidents happen and Ash Walker's strength largely depends on keeping their numbers up.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:54 pm
by Domitius
Free antag one egg per free antag.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:14 pm
by Arianya
Realistically the thing that gets on the nerves of players and admins alike is lizards who go "whoopsie doodle I headed south and left and found this mysterious station that I totally didn't know existed! I wonder if I can take this shuttle up to the station and now act like a murderer despite not having even met a human yet!"

Which is both difficult to prove intent on as an admin, and kinda horseshit misuse of a lavaland role to get your murder boner on station.

So machine restrictions are good, but my pipe dream is if we could change up how lavaland is generated so that you can't reliably find the mining station just by going south and west.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:23 pm
by zxaber
halitosisman wrote:Giving ash lizards an artificial disadvantage against crew in their current state is silly. Pretty much any instance of an Ash Walker getting high tech equipment that you mentioned would require the walkers to a) breach the mining base, which the station should be locking down and securing when the walkers appear and b) get literally anywhere onboard the station with a a spear and no disguise. There is no reason why a competent AI and security force can't stop an Ash lizard invasion. The crew deserves to have their SM explode if the Ash Lizards reach it.

Ash Walkers already cannot use firearms. This was a restriction placed upon them by someone (before my time) presumably to keep their ranged option limited. They also cannot wear shoes; intentional or not, they are weak to broken glass. An Ash Walker in a mech loses both of these downsides, and the lizard really needs to do little more than attack a solo free-golem that has gathered the mats for them. Considering the existing restriction on ranged weapons, I consider Ash Walkers in mechs to be against their theme.

halitosisman wrote:Would an egg limit of 2 or 3 per player be reasonable? Accidents happen and Ash Walker's strength largely depends on keeping their numbers up.

The idea behind the the sacrifice-for-egg mechanic is to allow players to secure their next life. If they take the time to give the tendril a few goliaths before they run back to the station, they will have a respawn waiting for them should they die (assuming all eggs haven't been taken). The real change here is no more free rides by having one Ash Walker stocking eggs while the rest of the tribe goes to war. And again, if you travel in a group and you die, a fellow Ash Walker will be able to drag your body to the tendril, respawning you in a new body without taking one of your bonus eggs. Think of it like Ash Walker revival surgery.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:28 pm
by halitosisman
Sounds fair to me. Apologies for not reading your line on revive changes correctly.

It would be funny to see wars between the golems and Ash Lizards though. Some form of loot would encourage said interaction.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:38 pm
by deedubya
zxaber wrote:lots of changes

So if I'm understanding this correctly...fuck the results of the vote, let's grudgecode ashliggers into oblivion?

I'm not a big fan of what's basically a free antag ghost role and the return of the old ashie mains, but let's be real here. If you die to one of these guys, you probably deserved it.

The only change I'd suggest is keeping the current restriction on them for Manuel(and any successor it will have) only. The mere existence of Manuel already discredits the existence of standards on other servers, so fuck it, let 'em have the horde of spear chucking foot fetishists.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:07 pm
by zxaber
I'm sorry you feel that change list is grudgecoding. Truth be told, I'm rather looking forward to ash lizards showing up on the station again.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:11 am
by oranges
this thread aged well lmao

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:36 am
by halitosisman
I'm happy that non antags will have an appropriate enemy to use wide area ordinance on.

Re: Ashwalkers discussion thread

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:06 pm
by Taylork2
zxaber wrote:I'm sorry you feel that change list is grudgecoding. Truth be told, I'm rather looking forward to ash lizards showing up on the station again.

I for one am extremely looking forward to your code changes, I just hope it's tied to the race rather than the entity so if you manage to swap your race you can gain access to restricted items/gear but lose the revival mechanic.



deedubya wrote:
zxaber wrote:lots of changes

So if I'm understanding this correctly...fuck the results of the vote, let's grudgecode ashliggers into oblivion?

I'm not a big fan of what's basically a free antag ghost role and the return of the old ashie mains, but let's be real here. If you die to one of these guys, you probably deserved it.

The only change I'd suggest is keeping the current restriction on them for Manuel(and any successor it will have) only. The mere existence of Manuel already discredits the existence of standards on other servers, so fuck it, let 'em have the horde of spear chucking foot fetishists.

Deedubya, normally I think you bring good but annoying comments or criticisms, but no, these changes are actually really good.
It's extremely easy to race change on lavaland, there are three ruins that allow racechanging, and two bosses that drop items for you to racechange. If you can earn these items it's fair to lose all negatives and benefits of being an ashwalker.


Arianya wrote:Realistically the thing that gets on the nerves of players and admins alike is lizards who go "whoopsie doodle I headed south and left and found this mysterious station that I totally didn't know existed! I wonder if I can take this shuttle up to the station and now act like a murderer despite not having even met a human yet!"

Which is both difficult to prove intent on as an admin, and kinda horseshit misuse of a lavaland role to get your murder boner on station.

So machine restrictions are good, but my pipe dream is if we could change up how lavaland is generated so that you can't reliably find the mining station just by going south and west.

That depends on your opinions tied to the flavor, "lore", and mechanics.
There are arguments that ashwalkers are born with innate knowledge from the tendril.
There are arguments that the innate knowledge stems from everyone who has been sacrificed at this tendril.
There are arguments that nanotransen employees have been heavily exploring and dying at lavaland before the "current" shift.
There are arguments that there were ashwalkers before the starting ashwalkers.
There are arguments that lavaland layout is canonically mostly consistent with it's layout decades beforehand, but rocks have risen/fallen to block off various paths.

If you believe all of these are true, then every ashwalker can know the location for every ruin and the location of the mining base without it being "lucky me" or "metagaming shitter". If zxaber code changes his suggestions the situation will be something akin to ashwalkers are just supposed to know it already.