/tg/Station 13

spoiler'd to keep the op post small, a couple examples of really low connecting admins untouched by recent admin removal. Omitted name to be nice, because i really have no problem with any of these people Why does someone who connect 3 times a month still get admin? No problems with them at all but we should be cycling admins in quicker and cycling admins out quicker. That creates a more robust adminbus that brings new ideas to the table and keeps the team FRESH and connected to the players.

We have a role for admins who don't play called game master, because we know for a fact they can help other admins out. otherwise, we should really raise the bar for what we expect. What would that amount be? I don't know. More than this.

hey is that one me
im doing some additional schooling but I usually keep that information in the pocket so nobody finds my underwear drawers and sniffs the contents

Lazengann wrote:hey is that one me
im doing some additional schooling but I usually keep that information in the pocket so nobody finds my underwear drawers and sniffs the contents

Not you, you have a pretty good amount of connections and you're busy and there are people who have a lot more time and will to connect (have you looked at twat and beauretard's connections? holy shit)

Armhulen wrote:We have a role for admins who don't play called game master, because we know for a fact they can help other admins out. otherwise, we should really raise the bar for what we expect. What would that amount be? I don't know. More than this.

I was under the impression that Game Master was a role specifically reserved for former headmins.

I agree with you by the way, admins with such low activity should be shuffled out, unless they're on an explained leave of absence...in which case if it's that long they should shuffle themselves out with the knowledge that they'd be welcome back if they reapplied.

Whether people like this or not moving to discord has made adminbus much more of a community than it was before. In the past removing someone for inactivity was no issue since the person was inactive both ingame and in IRC. However now people who no longer administrate the game stick around in the discord as they like talking to and doing stuff with their friends. Removing them would be kicking them out of a community that they like and would be a bit of a dick move.

I'd like to point out as that those are all Manuel rounds that MRP rounds can go one for up to three hours or longer, so it's not quite fair to point at these connections as a good estimate of time spent adminning. These could be 3 or 6 hours of keeping an eye on the server.

RaveRadbury wrote:I'd like to point out as that those are all Manuel rounds that MRP rounds can go one for up to three hours or longer, so it's not quite fair to point at these connections as a good estimate of time spent adminning. These could be 3 or 6 hours of keeping an eye on the server.

great point, if only there was a better way of measuring connection time

Owegno wrote:Whether people like this or not moving to discord has made adminbus much more of a community than it was before. In the past removing someone for inactivity was no issue since the person was inactive both ingame and in IRC. However now people who no longer administrate the game stick around in the discord as they like talking to and doing stuff with their friends. Removing them would be kicking them out of a community that they like and would be a bit of a dick move.

adminbus is truly a community of it's own and I totally get what you mean, most of the people i still talk to nowadays are from adminbus. Still, I don't think the ability to admin or not stops you from being part of the group once you've met and worked with those inside. We have gaming discords, open voice channels, admin ranch, and lots of other ways to keep in touch with people still actively looking over the servers. It is a friend club, and it should stay friendly, but it's fine maintaining a more applied admin group and still hanging out with the rest.

I'm no longer an admin (for now >:] ) but I still found it super easy to reconnect with people I talked to back in 2018.

https://sb.atlantaned.space/info/admins?interval=30

We all have ups and downs both of interest in playing the game and time available, so a month or two with few logins shouldnt disqualify someone from admin imo. Yes you can temporarily deadmin, but its more work for the headmins since ranks gotta be updated and shit.

There was also a purge recently if it escaped your notice: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 26#p542626

skoglol wrote:https://sb.atlantaned.space/info/admins?interval=30

We all have ups and downs both of interest in playing the game and time available, so a month or two with few logins shouldnt disqualify someone from admin imo. Yes you can temporarily deadmin, but its more work for the headmins since ranks gotta be updated and shit.

There was also a purge recently if it escaped your notice: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 26#p542626

mentioned it in the OP, these are people from after the purge

RaveRadbury wrote:I'd like to point out as that those are all Manuel rounds that MRP rounds can go one for up to three hours or longer, so it's not quite fair to point at these connections as a good estimate of time spent adminning. These could be 3 or 6 hours of keeping an eye on the server.

Statbus tracks connected time as well. Connection counts shouldn't be so low that someone who regularly admins manuel and would be disqualified based on connection count anyway. A bare minimum of connecting to the server a few times a month should be expected. I did not do that for the last few months I was admin partly due to poor internet which I still have, partly due to time constraints, and partly due to burnout, which is why I quit.

I really don't have a problem with anyone with low connections/whatever, I get it, real life or burnout happens and there's nothing wrong with that. However, when you volunteer to do something (and that's what this is, volunteering to help out with something we all enjoy), then you should probably do it.

Owegno wrote:Whether people like this or not moving to discord has made adminbus much more of a community than it was before. In the past removing someone for inactivity was no issue since the person was inactive both ingame and in IRC. However now people who no longer administrate the game stick around in the discord as they like talking to and doing stuff with their friends. Removing them would be kicking them out of a community that they like and would be a bit of a dick move.

We have a channel where retired/active admins can talk, plus outside gaming discords, etc. Don't think it's a big ask for people who are talking in adminbus to be in touch with the people who actually play the game. This is coming from someone who recently retired due to my own inactivity.

i had a chat with an admin trainer that later became a headmin during my first run as admin. they noticed the congregation of admins that generally didnt participate in game, forums, or discord moderation or otherwise contribute to the community, but still stayed around in the admin discord channel and maybe sometimes provide input in admin bus discussions. At the time I told them that I didn't really have an opinion on whether or not it was a bad thing, but if I were to try and resolve it if it were an issue, I'd remove the casual discussion channels such as #admin-chatter and #retirement-home, though keep the auditorium because it's much less of a secret club sort of thing there. I felt that it would really show just how inactive as administrators some were.

I generally still don't think it's an issue to have "ghost admins", but with some recent controversial bans and decisions it can become a kind of echo chamber with really out of touch admins providing reinforcement or criticism of decisions based solely on whether or not they liked the admin in question, and you'd end up with a lot of people that respect each others opinions and ideas patting each other on the back. That's perhaps the biggest issue that I find comes out of friendmins. I dont think having admin friends is bad at all, enjoying the presence of your peers is pretty essential to keeping volunteers that do tough work for free. It's just necessary to be ready to disagree and challenge their opinions in constructive manners.

It isn't as easy as getting rid of admins with low connections. There are a fair bit of very valuable members of the admin team that are commendable for their ability to think rationally and make unbiased rulings involving people that they might have conflicting opinions against. I think a good example of an admin like this would be Arianya - I wouldn't be surprised if most players haven't been in a round with Aria Bollet(their character), or see them connected to whichever server a player might find themselves in frequently. Despite their perceived inactivity, they're one of the best people you can go to regarding precedent and asking for insight onto rulings, you can practically assure that any choice they make was the right one without even checking. A good recent example of them administrating is the ban on Arathian. She obliterated his appeal point by point on a topic that had relatively recently underwent changes. There's more than just Ari, but she is one of my favorite admins, and I believe the perfect example of someone that most people might think of as inactive/out of touch, while remaining very in touch with the community and rules.

thank you for putting your wise words in the thread, i'll look into a full response tomorrow but my quick thoughts are that maybe a reworking of what game master role is, is in order.

and yeah, ari is a (good) game master who is a perfect example of the role's purpose

I resigned my adminship years back due to my inability to maintain connections and personal reasons I won't get into. My personal experience was less about connecting often and more abot being available often - being in lots of rounds doesn't necessarily mean you're actually paying attention or even sticking around long. I'd advocate for quality over quantity.

Dead inactive admins on the team do no harm, we are not charged per admin.

Inability to cycle in new admins due to capacity constraints in the training pipeline is the real issue here, you're tilting at the wrong windmills.

oranges wrote:Dead inactive admins on the team do no harm, we are not charged per admin.

Inability to cycle in new admins due to capacity constraints in the training pipeline is the real issue here, you're tilting at the wrong windmills.

Maybe I’m a little biased here but I agree with this.

I don’t connect too often but I still log on now and then to answer tickets or to pass on some knowledge to newer admins that need help. Not being able to find enough new admins is completely independent of not removing the less active ones. There’s no harm in leaving less active admins around so why bother?

As long as you're active enough to know the shifts in administration style as time passes and reflect that properly in how you admin, I have little issue.

What I don't like to see is people who haven't played for months/years coming back and nigh-immediately asking for admin (or I guess in this instance it would be logging back in and adminning again).

Owegno wrote:However now people who no longer administrate the game stick around in the discord as they like talking to and doing stuff with their friends. Removing them would be kicking them out of a community that they like and would be a bit of a dick move.

oranges wrote:Dead inactive admins on the team do no harm, we are not charged per admin.

The ideals of a community shape the behavior of its members. If you want the best admins you have to create a community which rewards the type of people you want. i.e. you actually have to hold them to standards and kick them out when they're not helping. Otherwise you get clique behavior and favoritism with more emphasis on posting memes and serving each other than admimming for the benefit of the game.

name 1 tangible example of what you mean

The big purple *or yellow* name would seem to imply someone who actively plays and is intouch with the community but ive seen alot of admins who sit around like unmoving titans. Who cares if they have friends on the admin team. They should deadmin and just come back once they get a feeling for the game again. They can still talk to their friends on the admin team. No need to keep them on the team for no reason bar them connecting once every few months answering 2 tickets banning one person then going back to never playing. Maybe being a player again will help them rekindle their like of the game.

Everything ive ever adminned always died by out of touch admins staying around long after they stopped playing. Forcing their shit opinions till whatever the server was died. We literally have a part of the admin application about people not adminning forever yet certain people on the team rarely connect.

Naloac wrote:The big purple *or yellow* name would seem to imply someone who actively plays and is intouch with the community but ive seen alot of admins who sit around like unmoving titans. Who cares if they have friends on the admin team. They should deadmin and just come back once they get a feeling for the game again. They can still talk to their friends on the admin team. No need to keep them on the team for no reason bar them connecting once every few months answering 2 tickets banning one person then going back to never playing. Maybe being a player again will help them rekindle their like of the game.

Everything ive ever adminned always died by out of touch admins staying around long after they stopped playing. Forcing their shit opinions till whatever the server was died. We literally have a part of the admin application about people not adminning forever yet certain people on the team rarely connect.

I'd like to add some sort of pithy comment or amusing remark or a wall of text to this post, but I can't. This is exactly my opinion except I'm not an admin on here.

solid chance one of these is me but I'd just like to add that my connections are in the pits because I literally cannot play or admin thanks to byond being busted

I may just have to Fucking Reinstall Windows

oranges wrote:Dead inactive admins on the team do no harm, we are not charged per admin.

Inability to cycle in new admins due to capacity constraints in the training pipeline is the real issue here, you're tilting at the wrong windmills.

Well put.

I don't think admin is necessarily a reward

once you find someone with the temperament for it there's no reason to remove them unless that changes