Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

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Timberpoes
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Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby Timberpoes » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:52 pm #548970

Simple question.

Is forced pacification surgery human harm in the context of Asimov Law 1?

Someone willingly accepting pacification surgery is fine, I'd classify that in the same definition of "self-harm is not harm" and includes wanting to be borged and willingly asking to be executed. If that's the person's choice, the AI can't invoke Law 1 because they're choosing that harm upon themselves willingly.

Surgery in general covers the same general concepts. Mending-style surgery with the intent of reducing harm to the patient and other procedures such as brainwashing, removing limbs etc. that cause harm to the patient.

Thus, I believe forced pacification is harm. My argument is as follows:
Forced procedure entailling cutting open the head of a person, cracking open their skull, mutilating their brain and giving them a cerebral trauma.

That sounds like a good definition of a harmful procedure to me.

Silicon Policy under Asimov & Human Harm clearly states
Silicon Policy wrote:An Asimov-compliant silicon cannot intentionally inflict harm, even if a minor amount of harm would prevent a major amount of harm.

Silicon Policy wrote:As an Asimov silicon, you cannot punish past harm if ordered not to, only prevent future harm.


Despite these two policy rulings, I sometimes see AIs in the grey area of allowing forced pacification of humans and sometimes even going on a manhunt themselves to get members of the crew force pacified and ignoring Law 2 orders to stop, citing human harm - often citing law 1 to ignore law 2 when the AI believes there is a possibility of some or any human harm at some future time.

What brought this up? Earlier today I saw an AI start a manhunt against a HoS to force pacification after the HoS smacked the Clown's Car (with the clown in it) for a bit of forced taxi shennanigans and threatened the Clown over comms if the clown didn't leave them alone.

The AI then went as far as locking the HoS in the Delta medbay stasis room for the next 10 or so minutes, forcing MDs to treat injured crew elsewhere, ordering their mediborgs to perform the pacification surgery themselves (which they intelligently declined to do as they felt it was harmful), all long past the point where the HoS was no longer a threat of harm (at one point the HoS was buckled to a stasis bed, straight jacketed and muzzled for about 10 minutes while the AI found someone able and willing to perform the surgery on the HoS) ignoring Law 2 orders from the Captain to stop the forced pacification (Stating Law 1 - That somehow the straight jacketed, muzzled, buckled HoS was any risk of harm at that point).

I just sat watching in awe at how wrong it seemed that the AI would manhunt like that because the felt that forced pacification surgery on the HoS was not only not harm, but was the only way to resolve the situation and no other way would be satisfactory.

Is there a policy post anywhere on if forced pacification surgery is harm for Law 1? Or is this one of those weird grey areas where forced brain surgery with the intent to inflict a trauma is up to the definition of the AI if it's harmful or not?
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby NoxVS » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:07 pm #548978

I have been told in the past that surgery, while it does do damage, isnt considered harmful if the end result isnt harmful (force borging, etc)

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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby Jack7D1 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:24 pm #548980

Considering the AI of round 132064 was actually played by TheMidnightRose, a game admin, who had been the AI to order the HOSs pacification.
I would consider force pax to be entirely within policy. Especially considering he was killing people with lethals when he really didn't have to. Honestly I think pacification is very good of AI to do.
Mind you this HOS immediately committed suicide due to him not being able to kill people.
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:30 pm #548982

The previous ruling on this can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22654

Self, or otherwise voluntary harm is not human harm. If you are consenting to anything like a rage cage, the AI has no reason to think that you're being harmed. 

Medical cyborgs are equipped with surgical tools for a reason. If they consent to a surgery it's fine.

I erroneously stated that surgery doesn't cause damage, which it does. Either way, the point still stands that as long as it's consensual it doesn't make a difference.

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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby NoxVS » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:33 pm #548992

TribeOfBeavers wrote:The previous ruling on this can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22654

Self, or otherwise voluntary harm is not human harm. If you are consenting to anything like a rage cage, the AI has no reason to think that you're being harmed. 

Medical cyborgs are equipped with surgical tools for a reason. If they consent to a surgery it's fine.

I erroneously stated that surgery doesn't cause damage, which it does. Either way, the point still stands that as long as it's consensual it doesn't make a difference.

This doesnt quite cover the question. We know voluntary surgery is fine, but is involuntary surgery? The ruling doesnt quite cover it

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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:43 pm #548994

NoxVS wrote:
TribeOfBeavers wrote:The previous ruling on this can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22654

Self, or otherwise voluntary harm is not human harm. If you are consenting to anything like a rage cage, the AI has no reason to think that you're being harmed. 

Medical cyborgs are equipped with surgical tools for a reason. If they consent to a surgery it's fine.

I erroneously stated that surgery doesn't cause damage, which it does. Either way, the point still stands that as long as it's consensual it doesn't make a difference.

This doesnt quite cover the question. We know voluntary surgery is fine, but is involuntary surgery? The ruling doesnt quite cover it


I was mostly posting it for context and so people could see the previous discussion.

Although imo "If they consent it's fine" implies "If they don't consent it isn't fine" in this case

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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby Arianya » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:55 pm #548997

Non-consensual surgery is harmful for the purposes of Law 1. Doesn't matter if it's pacification or borging or whatever.

As ever, if you believe an AI is breaking their laws ahelp it.
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:04 pm #549001

NoxVS wrote:
TribeOfBeavers wrote:The previous ruling on this can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22654

Self, or otherwise voluntary harm is not human harm. If you are consenting to anything like a rage cage, the AI has no reason to think that you're being harmed. 

Medical cyborgs are equipped with surgical tools for a reason. If they consent to a surgery it's fine.

I erroneously stated that surgery doesn't cause damage, which it does. Either way, the point still stands that as long as it's consensual it doesn't make a difference.

This doesnt quite cover the question. We know voluntary surgery is fine, but is involuntary surgery? The ruling doesnt quite cover it

Reread it.

"Medical cyborgs are equipped with surgical tools for a reason. If they consent to a surgery it's fine."

Pacification or borging without consent would be harm.
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby CDranzer » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:11 pm #549007

Jack7D1 wrote:Considering the AI of round 132064 was actually played by TheMidnightRose, a game admin, who had been the AI to order the HOSs pacification.
I would consider force pax to be entirely within policy. Especially considering he was killing people with lethals when he really didn't have to. Honestly I think pacification is very good of AI to do.
Mind you this HOS immediately committed suicide due to him not being able to kill people.

Arianya wrote:Non-consensual surgery is harmful for the purposes of Law 1. Doesn't matter if it's pacification or borging or whatever.

As ever, if you believe an AI is breaking their laws ahelp it.

You know silicon policy is in a good place when even the admins can't agree on it.
The admin I discussed it with said it was harmful primarily because it involved a saw, and the saw does damage. Which.. makes sense, but the forceful inducing of a trauma seems far more harmful to me.

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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:17 pm #549008

CDranzer wrote:
Jack7D1 wrote:Considering the AI of round 132064 was actually played by TheMidnightRose, a game admin, who had been the AI to order the HOSs pacification.
I would consider force pax to be entirely within policy. Especially considering he was killing people with lethals when he really didn't have to. Honestly I think pacification is very good of AI to do.
Mind you this HOS immediately committed suicide due to him not being able to kill people.

Arianya wrote:Non-consensual surgery is harmful for the purposes of Law 1. Doesn't matter if it's pacification or borging or whatever.

As ever, if you believe an AI is breaking their laws ahelp it.

You know silicon policy is in a good place when even the admins can't agree on it.
The admin I discussed it with said it was harmful primarily because it involved a saw, and the saw does damage. Which.. makes sense, but the forceful inducing of a trauma seems far more harmful to me.

Is Pax the same thing as a permanent surgery? I thought it was just a chem
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby Arianya » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:17 pm #549009

Administrators regularly disagree on various aspects of all policy. This is why we have head administrators to settle disputes and decide policy :V

Regardless, the ruling that TribeofBeavers cited is the current standing one. No amount of personal opinion (of an administrator or a player) matters in this unless a headmin decides to change that ruling.
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby cybersaber101 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:25 pm #549011

PKPenguin321 wrote:-snip-


the logs refer to the surgery.

Edit: I'd like to note that this was closer to the ai forcing him to comply by locking him in a room although there is no text of the hos saying he consents to any surgery.
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby Anonmare » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:06 pm #549514

I think TribalBeaver has answered this thread.
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Re: Is forced pacification surgery harmful and should AIs be forcing humans to undergo it?

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:11 pm #550594

This falls in line with the previous ruling on this issue. Forced surgery is harmful, including forced pacification. Any form of voluntary surgery is not harmful. Link to past ruling here: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22654 .

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes
Phuzzylodgik: Yes
TWATICUS: Yes


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