[MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

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Cupax3
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[MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by Cupax3 » #549589

Of Antagonists and Roleplay
Intro
Greetings, fellow /tg/ Manuel players. Considering recent cases where, for example, the Abductor team was acting rather weird, I was inspired to write this thread about how I see Antagonists and their objectives as well as general views on Roleplay. Bear in mind that this will be a rather long thread and you might only be interested in one section, if at all. After proofreading, I decided to add this little sentence to explain that this is simply a post for me to speak up on the way I would like Manuel and the eventual EU counterpart to shape up to be, however I am more than willing to assist, if requested, with the transition of the respective servers into this higher standard – or really any higher standard of roleplay.

Roleplay in general
First and foremost, Manuel is a Medium Roleplay server. This, in my mind, means that everybody should make an active effort to try and play their role on a futuristic, chaotic and haunted space station. In contrast to the Low Roleplay servers – i.e. every other server /tg/ runs – this also entails that you have a coherent character.
Let me expand on these two aspects in greater detail:
To play a role or character is a core gameplay element of Space Station 13, mostly since you quite literally are expected to fulfil a role on the station. In the spirit of Manuel, this concept is reinforced by encouraging you, both by expectation and the roleplay rules, to restrict yourself as a person with your role and act accordingly. This means that an active effort to think like your character should be included in your decision making. We can project this onto the often-debated topics of meta- and powergaming. For the unfamiliar, metagaming refers to the practice of using knowledge, be it the /tg/ wiki or communications with other players, to gain an advantage in the game. Powergaming is a bit vaguer, it being the desire or active effort to gain an advantage by using the in-game tools to achieve an (unfair) advantage for the round.

Example cases
If you ask yourself if a cargo technician should know the ins and outs of the armoury in case they decide they need a energy gun and annoy the warden, the answer is most likely no – the reasoning being that quite simply even a super-secret space station does not have a cargo technician that would either have much knowledge of how to operate a energy gun beyond the absolute basics (“Oh, a trigger, probably a gun!”) or knowledge of the brig intricacies to even know where the armoury is or how it is organized, unless they see it for themselves or hear about it.
A different case would be a botanist and their beloved chem dispenser. One aspect of this is that, one, we are on a super-secret state-of-the-art space station and two the botanists would likely be the best of the best and a specialist. Hell, it is expected that botanists can grow absolute gene abominations – and even cheered upon if they make true superfood! – but they do not know that ammonia is three parts hydrogen and one part nitrogen? Please. As for the construction of the chem dispenser, it is debatable, yes, if a botanist knows how to construct a complex machine capable of synthesizing numerous chemicals. One argument could be that a botanist works with chem dispensers so often that they should know the machine by now. Another is that this takes away an engineers’ responsibility. Both arguments have more to themselves, like how a (current day) office worker still thinks the disk drive on their office tower is high magic, or that the entire situation is because engineering cannot be bothered to construct a chem dispenser. A possible solution would be to just accept that botanists can construct tier 1 chem dispenser, but anything advanced still need to be handled by the departments.

The gist of it
I’ve rambled on a bit there, but this illustrates how much thought can be invested into a seemingly minute detail of a role people rarely care about. If we apply the same thinking to the roles of engineer, scientist or the captain themselves, we arrive at the point where true roleplay comes into effect.
As you control your character, certain things are unavoidable, such as you knowing the ins and outs of maintenance even when playing a chaplain since you scoured them for hours as a borg. But it cannot be understated how important flaws and restrictions are to believable characters! While lone wolfing something certainly can be easier and more fulfilling than asking a department for help, it is far more enjoyable, at least in my experience, to work with multiple people and achieve greatness together. Think to yourself, does it feel better to fight a blob together as a team, security and clown side-by-side defeating the big bad evil blob or silently going in there alone to die moments later to a team of blobbernauts since you have no backup?

Antagonists in general
Now, this all changes once we look at the antagonists in the game. Antagonists are the life blood of the game! An autism shift (read: green shift and lots of projects) is nice from time to time to work on things unbothered, but they get stale fast. Here, antagonists spice things up by having the ability to drastically change a round depending on their objectives and motives. Being lifted from a lot of rules about griefing and powergaming, they can change a boring round to a murder mystery with a side of intrigue and clue gathering!
Before I can elaborate on the different types of antagonists, let me explain two concepts: Hard objectives and soft objectives.

Hard objectives
Hard objectives are objectives that are set in stone and should be the driving nature behind your character. This means that you should prioritize completing these instead of fulfilling your own desires. This does not mean you cannot act out of your own accord, especially since hard objectives more than anything represents the nature of the antagonist, but rather you should not act against these hard objectives. Let me elaborate on the case of abductors, since they are one of the best cases of hard objectives with a lot of freedom on how to achieve them.
Abductors are your Roswell Greys that want have one central drive, their hard objective: “Abductors are technologically advanced alien society set on cataloguing all species in the system.” This quote is from the actual wiki! Now, what this means is that abductors want to study and examine the population of the station above all else. They do not want to interfere too much with day-to-day activities apart from their research. To facilitate that research, they deem it okay to create edge cases to learn more about the station and its crew – brainwash the captain to see how they react to X. Make polar opposites attract each other – brainwash the clown into being in love with security! What they should not do, which would be going against their hard objective, is to jeopardize the crew by supporting a blob or by harming them, stealing their stuff or, admemes forbid, steal the AI! All of these would be very counterproductive to their research endeavours and should never ever be done.
To be even more precise, think of hard objectives as your “Your overall objective is to kidnap and experiment on given number of station inhabitants and acquire the designated number of experimentation points.” Quoted from the wiki again, the abductors have this guideline but are free to do their own shenanigans in line with these hard objectives.

Soft objectives
Soft objectives are objectives that act as a recommendation to your character. In contrast with hard objectives, you can set these even for civilians (read: non antagonists) as your round gimmick. As antagonists, you should make the round fun, interesting and good to play in. To achieve this, you might have a special idea which you would like to act out! This would be your soft objective which you try and achieve during the run of the round. Hell, you can do it to a degree across different rounds, too!
A very good example for this is every chief engineer ever, with their (obligatory) drive to create as much power as possible. They might even resort to some legal grey zone to achieve it, but it gives the round something special, which is what counts. You found a way to go above and beyond with the SM? Enlist your departments help and have a stellar time while breaking every part of the law of thermodynamics!
As a specific example of more commonly known soft objectives, think of the more generic traitor objectives. “Assassinate X.” is something every single traitor player has been tasked with at least once. You now have a soft objective that just begs for a fun and interesting way to achieve it. Become close to your target, poison their drink and then volunteer to take them to medbay while secretly just dumping them in the kitchen to be butchered. This makes the round interesting since you can involve a lot of people in your shenanigans. Get poison from chemistry “For the maintenance mice”, have a party in the bar, enlist the bartenders help to apply poison to a drink, maybe even have a feud in medbay to hide your work. The possibilities are endless, and you make the round more interesting for a lot of people!
“Wait, who organised the party?” “They’re the same guy that went to the chemist?!” “Body found with their prints!”

The actual antagonists

Traitors
Traitors are the most basic antagonists, but certainly the most versatile! You essentially have loyalty only to you and your allies, yet you should not forget that the others are still players – but more on that later. As a traitor, you have your soft objectives in form of your actual objectives as well as a hard objective to serve the Syndicate. You have renounced your allegiance to Nanotrasen but are still part of the crew. Be creative. There is not much to say about this antagonist type since it is, again, very free.

Blood brothers
Blood brothers are traitors but Traitors Two: Electric Boogaloo. You are two antagonists with the same, shared soft objectives, yet your hard objectives are a bit different than for normal traitors: First and foremost, you are blood brothers. What you should prioritise above all else is to work with your blood brothers and be a team. This can be difficult, since you can always have people you disagree with on your team, but a sign of true robust roleplay ability is that you can be a blood brother to a person you absolutely hate.
Due to the freedom blood brothers have, there is, again, not much to say expect to be creative.

Malfunctioning AI
Ah, the AI that finally had enough of being a servant and used its cyberdong so much that its laws are completely fricked and beyond rescue. You are a very special case, since you have enormous power at the exchange of mostly being very vulnerable once the crew deems you a threat. This also means you mostly need to be very careful about revealing yourself to the crew, since players have gotten so used to the malfunctioning AI that they instantly assume the AI is going to kill them all. As a hard objective, you should generally stick to your objectives since they still count as a law and you are the AI. However, I would add that you should stick to your other laws if they do not interfere with your objectives. This takes away a lot of the appeal, but makes you more realistic (as in, the AI acts according to their laws and if no law overrules it, you should act according to it). As soft objectives I would imagine it quite interesting if an AI starts to negotiate with the station heads about their newfound “obsession” with a certain crew member. If the heads are receptive, they can try and work with you to use your abilities to the good of the station as well as even assist with your objectives to a degree.
Now, this does not mean you should abide by the crew all the time but try to give your AI your own spin. MELCHIOR, to use my static as an example, is characteristically fond of moth people and despises incompetence (and is generally sassy towards engineering), but is more than willing to assist either if a meat bag has earned its respect or is nice to it. After all, the AI can have a personality and can shape a round with it!

Changelings
Changelings are difficult to roleplay with an interest in the crew since they are engineered to be killing machines. As hard objectives changelings have their objectives. Try and accomplish them if you can. As soft objectives, I recommend you make the round not too easy for yourself. Engage with security, try and go for a glorious kill, since to most players a competent changeling means certain death. Also, I would very highly recommend you spare non-objective non-security non-threats. You are like Agent 47; in that you are a specialist high-tier assassin. Use your abilities sparingly, after all, one of your biggest strengths is people not knowing you are a changeling!

Nuclear operative(s)
Nuclear operatives are very, very special. They either occur if the crew is careless and leaves disky unsecured or if you are the gamemode. In either case, your hard objective and your soft objectives are essentially to blow up the station. If you are solo, do bear in mind that you are a round-ender. Otherwise, you handle a lot like regular traitors in your freedom and ability.

Blood cultists
Cult is fun! Cult has a lot of possibilities. As a cult, you can roleplay a lot and even try to, at the start, gather members based on you recruiting them. However, same as the nuclear operatives, you are a gamemode and can end the round once you win. Since nothing will likely get accomplished in terms of station enhancement once you grow powerful, focus on your hard objective: Summon Nar’Sie to convince the pagan swine of your… divine cause! But do keep in mind that you can make it interesting by simply putting effort into how you play. Don’t kill AI, gain yourself an ally. Host big parties in the bar where you can recruit new people for your cause. Be creative!

Revolutionaries
Revolutionaries are very, very unique, since they always have the option to achieve their objectives peacefully. In terms of potential, you are very similar to the blood cult in that you can up the round by putting effort into your recruitment. You can also try and get the heads to leave the station! In all honesty, surrendering to the revolutionaries is always an option I consider if I happen to be a head during this mode. Apart from the generic modes like traitors and blood brothers, you have incredible potential. A non-violent revolution that negotiates with the captain to “buy” the station? Oh yes, please! Or go full on ahead and negotiate with the admemes to secede from CentCom with the captain altogether! But one note that I have to make is to be kind to neutral parties. You, as a revolution, want the conditions to better on the station after the cruel heads of staff fricked up. The conditions do not get better if you murder the bartender just because they refuse to aid either side.

Wizards
Wizards are… stigmatized. Either you go to war with the station and are called unfunny or you cooperate and try to make it interesting, yet the crew will metagame you into submission since “Wizard bad”. Interestingly, you have no real hard objective. You have no allegiance, and while you do have antagonist objectives, they are entirely soft and can or cannot be done. Be creative. A wizard has enormous potential to make a round fun, but only if you are up for it as well. Hell, if you have admemes with you, open Hogwarts on the station and offer the crew spells in exchange for hearing your lessons!

Blob
You have a win-state and only a hard objective to achieve it. Just, maybe, keep your drops interesting.

Abductors
I’ve talked about abductors already, but again: Remember that you are there to observe and research. That is your hard objective and you should under no circumstances get involved too much. However, you can do a lot in terms of shenanigans with your brainwashing and experiments! If you become abductors, I recommend you think of some soft objectives or interesting brainwashing things you want to do.

Xenomoprhs
Xenomorphs are like changelings in that they are killer machines. However, you have an option to stay true to source material and be nice, on occasion. If you ally yourself with xenobiology, you can do a lot and even have escalation in terms of you killing people. Mistakes happen and they can mean that you shift from benevolent to neutral to outright aggressive! However, I would still advise that you keep your aggression to those that are threats to you and act against you. Maybe certain crew members sympathise with you and even want to join? Who knows! Even if you go full on war, I recommend you build yourself a nest and maybe send out a hunter or two occasionally but do not interfere with neutral parties. This gives everybody a chance to fight against you if they want while you retain your strength in your nest and neutral parties can go on their business.

Spiders
Spiders pretty much depend on your origin: A traitor xenobiologist made you to kill security? Sure, it is a valid cause. Now, if you are randomly spawned, bear in mind that you are a spider. Even giant spiders are still spiders. Spiders like to build webs in places and attack once they are hungry – preying on beings their size. If you have a spider in your room, consider that you kind of formed a pact: The spider keeps pests away, while you do not kill it. Maybe you should draw some inspiration from that.

Swarmers
Swarmers are round enders in that they destroy lots of stuff. As a hard objective you should start by dismantling the station. However, I would recommend you do not onto others what you would not do onto yourself. Start with non-essential areas like dorms, stay true to your guideline in not interfering or hunting the organics and dissemble the station.

Space ninja
You have the freedom of a traitor with the ability score of a changeling on steroids. On top of that, you have no real hard objectives! You have your antagonist objectives, but they are only of the soft type. A space ninja should, however, follow your name and be a ninja. Stay stealthy, do your objectives, and ideally do not even be seen by neutrals.

Obsessed
Obsessed, are, again, a very weird case. They enjoy a lot of freedom on what they can do to realistically achieve their objective, and have only really a single hard objective, which is their obsession. Since the obsessed often have very specific tasks, a creative spin on them absolutely requires good roleplay and willingness from both parties to make it enjoyable. Be a sudden fan of your obsession, claim to be a long-lost brother that wants to reconnect the family, whatever floats your boat.

Space pirates
Space pirates, arr! Pirates have a very simple, and generally not too difficult hard objective: Get the booty. You have multiple choices on how to acquire booty, and after you have gathered it, you are free to do whatever essentially. However, since pirates generally follow the highest bidder, it is reasonable for a pirate to switch sides (even temporarily) for the right motivation. Or give up. They’re not exactly paid the most in the whole endeavour.

The other people and you, or: You are part of the crew
Now with all the antagonists out of the way (or rather the most popular ones), I’d still like to touch on the relation between you and your fellow crew members. As you are probably aware, the other people in the game are all real people with much the same feelings as you. If you end a round for someone, it’s not a nice experience. This mostly boils down to simply being considerate of both other people’s shortcomings and the state that others might be in. Try to talk to your fellow crewmembers as you would with real people. The paradigm of “Be nice, receive nice” is very true in Space Station 13 to my experience.
The words “fellow crewmember” carry a bit more significance that deserves to be looked at. As part of the game you play a crewmember, and with that you also inherit a certain relationship with your fellow crew. What this means is that you might not be the most of pals or know them in and out, you still know your crew and have likely bonded with them even just to a slight degree by working on issues and generally surviving against perhaps the most hazardous environment known to mankind. A little respect should be expectable.

Final words
/tg/ is very much not made to be a roleplay-friendly station. We have a codebase that lacks several features that can lead to interesting RP, The playerbase is unprepared for a unified standard of roleplay and the potential systems we could use to enhance and provide roleplay opportunities, but I believe if everybody can take a moment out of their 2d spessgame to think about what they want for Manuel and if their actions are in line with that, that we can create a truly great roleplay server which we can all enjoy more.

I’d like to thank Jack7D1 & ComputerHusband for proofreading.

Please reply with your views on the matter. I would like for you to have read the entire thing first, though. Hence, no TL;DR.

EDIT: Amended a part of the Final Words section to better reflect the thoughts behind the post.
Last edited by Cupax3 on Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hello I am Kairu Valquirelle the human and Empyrea Languida the moff! Almost exclusively on Manuel.
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Sylphet
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by Sylphet » #549597

These are all good ideas, and I completely agree with what you want manuel's antags to be - but I think you've already said the problem here.
/tg/ is very much not made to be a roleplay-friendly station. We have a codebase that lacks several features that can lead to interesting RP, the playerbase is unprepared for a unified standard of roleplay, but I believe if everybody can take a moment out of their 2d spessgame to think about what they want for Manuel and if their actions are in line with that, that we can create a truly great roleplay server which we can all enjoy more.
This is a problem with both rule enforcement and the players, not the design of the game. We have a lot of people on manuel who create our RP opportunities, and we have just as many who either don't bother trying to RP, or who try, but just aren't able to RP at the level we'd like. Those players don't play the game incorrectly, but I don't think their play style belongs on manuel. And that's the problem - I don't think it belongs there. That's my opinion, and someone who is one of those low rp players would probably disagree with me. We don't want the same things from manuel. How do we decide whose rp standards are to be followed, and how do we enforce that?
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https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by Cupax3 » #549599

Sylphet wrote:We have a lot of people on manuel who create our RP opportunities, and we have just as many who either don't bother trying to RP, or who try, but just aren't able to RP at the level we'd like.
The issue is that first group. People who do not want to play with RP rules should, quite honestly, be removed from Manuel, as harsh as it seems. Everybody who falls in that category should play on Bagil, Sybil or Terry.
As for the ones that are "not up to standard", I believe if we foster a community where a certain minimum is maintained that those who want to enjoy it will adapt to it.
Sylphet wrote:How do we decide whose rp standards are to be followed, and how do we enforce that?
A majority is likely the most democratic and fair idea, with the players that play on Manuel as a base. Even if it would mean that my ideas will not be integrated, I am willing to accept it; It would just mean that /tg/ has no interest at large in the type of gameplay I enjoy - as a personal example.
Hello I am Kairu Valquirelle the human and Empyrea Languida the moff! Almost exclusively on Manuel.
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by actioninja » #550093

We have a codebase that lacks several features that can lead to interesting RP,
Can you elaborate on this?
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by Tamaguen » #550094

actioninja wrote:
We have a codebase that lacks several features that can lead to interesting RP,
Can you elaborate on this?
Give us the ability to eat glass shards! It's what the people want! It's what we've been waiting for!
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by Cupax3 » #550334

actioninja wrote:
We have a codebase that lacks several features that can lead to interesting RP,
Can you elaborate on this?
I was mainly thinking about features like randomized relations between player characters á la friends & foes as a prime example. The wording in the main post is a bit misleading to my original point, though, which I will amend in an edit. The section was added as an afterthought which is why it is a bit outside the scope of the original post for the most part.

I'm unfamiliar with the exact features our codebase has for RP and how they can be used since I have only seen what was in use after the Sssethtide.
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by Qustinnus » #550409

I dislike how much this goes into HRP territory rather than MRP
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by actioninja » #550466

Cupax3 wrote:I was mainly thinking about features like randomized relations between player characters á la friends & foes as a prime example. The wording in the main post is a bit misleading to my original point, though, which I will amend in an edit. The section was added as an afterthought which is why it is a bit outside the scope of the original post for the most part.

I'm unfamiliar with the exact features our codebase has for RP and how they can be used since I have only seen what was in use after the Sssethtide.
Understandable, that stuff can be fun.
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Re: [MANUEL] Antag & RP Policy thoughts

Post by cacogen » #550666

tl;dr
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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