Valid Demotions are Protected similar to Valid Arrests

[Cobby]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Players should be protected from escalation against valid demotions in the same way that you cannot escalate against a security officer for making a valid arrest on you.

Valid demotion would be common sense actions like "wow you made meth instead of a chems literally the entire round so far!" or doing something the head of staff has asked you not to do (that's a reasonable request).

I think one of the major reasons people don't perform demotions despite the user basically being deadweight for the department is fear of getting hounded for the rest of the round (and consequently seeing no point to go head or actively avoid it).

[cacogen]

"wow you made meth instead of a chems literally the entire round so far!".

that doesn't seem like a valid demotion to me, just demanding a player sacrifice their own fun to work for you (which should be reserved for MRP)
if the meth exploded and they went back to it then you'd have a point because rebuilding after that is a pain in the ass

This isn't going to work when it comes to antags who definitely won't be doing their job. The moment a Head tries to demote them for fucking off the antag will ahelp about how this Head "Pre-preemptively meta them because they left the department roundstart and didn't do their job for 15 minutes"

so what is a valid demotion i think is necessary to agree upon before you can say whether they should be invalidated as a reason for reprisal by non-antags
the antag can attack the head of staff but then it becomes an antag tell and i don't see why antags should be expected to do this just to keep their jobs

[Farquaar]

"wow you made meth instead of a chems literally the entire round so far!".

that doesn't seem like a valid demotion to me, just demanding a player sacrifice their own fun to work for you (which should be reserved for MRP)
if the meth exploded and they went back to it then you'd have a point because rebuilding after that is a pain in the ass

If people are dying because you blew up the pharmacy making meth instead of making useful chems, I'd say that it warrants a demotion. Wasting resources to the point where department is better off without you or ignoring your duties to the extent that people are dying or the station is falling apart are already valid reasons for demotions now; it's just that these demotions aren't protected from escalation like arrests.

Remember, doing something demote-worthy doesn't mean that you HAVE to be demoted, but it's certainly grounds to be. Like most decision-making in SS13, it's context-dependent. Security could technically arrest you for growing shrooms as a botanist according to Space Law, but nobody ever does that because it would be pointless.

This isn't going to work when it comes to antags who definitely won't be doing their job. The moment a Head tries to demote them for fucking off the antag will ahelp about how this Head "Pre-preemptively meta them because they left the department roundstart and didn't do their job for 15 minutes"

I can understand your concern. Some jobs, like miner or scientist, allow people to obtain gamer gear and deadly equipment in the course of their work without anyone batting an eye, while others, like medical doctor or chef, mostly restrict you to a small area where you're expected to help others instead of yourself. Some jobs are simply more antag-friendly than others.

But let's be honest. If you're an antag and you've disappeared at the start of the shift and have been AWOL for 45 minutes, everyone who's paying attention knows that you're either dead or up to no good. I can't really see how protecting valid demotions is going to make anything easier to metagame.

so what is a valid demotion i think is necessary to agree upon before you can say whether they should be invalidated as a reason for reprisal by non-antags
the antag can attack the head of staff but then it becomes an antag tell and i don't see why antags should be expected to do this just to keep their jobs

This is already a thing with security arrests. When you get arrested by security, they're likely to confiscate the gear and weapons you've accumulated. You can choose to defend yourself, guns blazing, and give yourself away as a tot. Or you can cooperate and try to smooth-talk your way out of it.

[Farquaar]

Also, it's not like protecting valid demotions is just going to result in a no-rules free-for-all for all heads to demote everybody who does their job in a sub-optimal fashion. Headmins can easily write guidelines for what constitutes a valid demotion and put it on the wiki. And if the guidelines are insufficient, then they can be modified. Heck, if you're worried about a particular scenario happening like getting demoted for drinking at the bar for 15 minutes, then that could easily be prevented with an "invalid reasons for demotion" list on the rules page.

[Armhulen]

The bar is so low, it's subterranean when I set it at "do literally anything more useful than cooking meth for yourself for the entire shift" like come on guys how is that not a valid demotion here.

You can fuck with the entire department without direct conflict by being a useless sack o' shit

[cacogen]

Well, I'm of the belief that the game is better when people can opt not to do their jobs or pursue whatever goals they have in a job without fear of demotion. I didn't say getting demoted after blowing chemistry up making meth was invalid though, Farquaar. If you're doing something or neglecting a duty such that it interferes with other people's rounds in a significant way that seems like a valid reason for a demotion to me. And I do think heads of staff should be protected by the rules from retaliation in those situations.

[Screemonster]

The bar is so low, it's subterranean when I set it at "do literally anything more useful than cooking meth for yourself for the entire shift" like come on guys how is that not a valid demotion here.

You can fuck with the entire department without direct conflict by being a useless sack o' shit

honestly my bar for demotions is "don't be more a pain in the ass than an empty job slot would be"
if someone fucks off to go drinking or else gets killed at roundstart then shit happens, it's pretty much expected that over the course of the round people are going to be rendered unable to do their jobs anyway
like if I'm CE and someone fucks off to build a fort then I don't give a fuck, but if they take all the department's shit and fuck off with it that's more likely to be a problem.

[WineAllWine]

"don't be more a pain in the ass than an empty job slot would be"

I think this is literally what the policy should be.

Also how haven't the headmins agreed to this already? It so obviously should be policy

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Seems unnecessary, it's poor escalation already to kill someone for a "valid" demotion anyway. I don't really like metaprotection either, seems like a code solution that makes it easier for heads to demote is better.

[Stickymayhem]

Seems unnecessary, it's poor escalation already to kill someone for a "valid" demotion anyway. I don't really like metaprotection either, seems like a code solution that makes it easier for heads to demote is better.

There are far far FAR worse things than killing that are within the rules. One person can cause an entire department massive headaches with repeated break ins, screaming and vendettas. This makes demoting someone worthless most of the time since if they were a shitter in the role they'll sure as shit be a shitter now that they have an excuse to be one

[Jimmius]

Demotions for a good reason are protected in a similar manner to valid arrests. Your boss taking away departmental access because you're using it to tide is no more grounds for IC escalation than a security officer arresting you for smashing windows with a fireaxe. You don't have to meekly hand over your ID card for demotion just because your boss requests it, but you can't do anything to resist a valid demotion that you couldn't do to resist a valid arrest.
Heads of Staff are expected not to abuse this meta protection: if the "demotion" consists of fullstripping you, taking your ID, and tossing you into the hallways nude, they will be treated in the same manner as a security officer doing the same. Command roles are held to a higher standard than other roles, so abusing the privileges of the role is an admin issue-- they've also waived their right to complain when you come back for IC revenge.

Headmin Votes:
Jimmius: Essentially what I said in the post above.
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.