Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

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feem
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Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551870

EDITED TO ADD BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO BE READING THE TOPIC: This happened on Manuel and the thread is about Manuel

In round 133314, a traitor with the syndicate bee kit threw a beesease bottle and buzzkill grenade in medbay about 20 minutes after shift start. The bees which spawned contained chemicals which caused instant heart attacks in at least two people, and ended up with I believe 4 people dead, including most medbay staff by about 00:25-30 shift time.

The admin who was on at the time stated that Manuel's MRP rules do not prevent this behavior. Should they? Personally, I feel that killing an entire department early in the round without saying a word to them is pretty murderboney. To my knowledge, the person in question didn't do any "bee RP" or really bring anything to the round prior to this. AFTERWARDS, apparently he began roleplaying as an "ecoterrorist," espousing the virtues of bees. But medbay was still dead at that point, and never really got back off the ground to any level of efficacy.

I've included the contents of the bee syndicate kit below, and the buzzkill def. You'll notice it picks random items from the toxin datum, which includes a bunch of nasty chemicals. The admin in question said I should submit a PR rather than discuss policy, but I feel like this merits further discussion.

I'm really not saying "let's get rid of the package" or "random toxin bees are op," and I don't even think the person in question should be banned: that is not what this is about. This is about whether or not silently dropping spawner grenades which kill a whole department within 20 minutes of roundstart is the type of story intended to be told on Manuel.

Edit: maybe this should really be about bombing medbay roundstart.

Code: Select all

		if("bee")
			new /obj/item/paper/fluff/bee_objectives(src) // 0 tc (motivation)
			new /obj/item/clothing/suit/hooded/bee_costume(src) // 0 tc
			new /obj/item/clothing/mask/rat/bee(src) // 0 tc
			new /obj/item/storage/belt/fannypack/yellow(src) // 0 tc
			new /obj/item/grenade/spawnergrenade/buzzkill(src)
			new /obj/item/grenade/spawnergrenade/buzzkill(src)
			new /obj/item/reagent_containers/glass/bottle/beesease(src) // 10 tc?
			new /obj/item/melee/beesword(src) //priceless

Code: Select all

/obj/item/grenade/spawnergrenade/buzzkill
	name = "Buzzkill grenade"
	desc = "The label reads: \"WARNING: DEVICE WILL RELEASE LIVE SPECIMENS UPON ACTIVATION. SEAL SUIT BEFORE USE.\" It is warm to the touch and vibrates faintly."
	icon_state = "holy_grenade"
	spawner_type = /mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/poison/bees/toxin
	deliveryamt = 10

Code: Select all

/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/poison/bees/toxin/Initialize()
	. = ..()
	var/datum/reagent/R = pick(typesof(/datum/reagent/toxin))
	assign_reagent(GLOB.chemical_reagents_list[R])
Last edited by feem on Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wesoda25
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by wesoda25 » #551883

bro run away like what. At most one or two people get mobbed and the rest escape, did the entire department really die?
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Stickymayhem
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551885

Gobsmacking amount of detail left out of this particular situation considering we just talked about it five minutes ago.
The admin who was on at the time stated that Manuel's MRP rules do not prevent this behavior.
That's me. The rule in question:
Antagonism and murderboning.
You're an antag, great! Treat your role as an interesting challenge and not an excuse to destroy other people’s game experience. Your actions should make the game more fun, more exciting and more enjoyable for everyone; you can treat your objectives as suggestions on what you should attempt to achieve but you are also encouraged to ignore them if you've got a better idea. You do NOT have to act in a nefarious or evil way, but you are not allowed to just go on a silent rampage and eliminate all the players in a power trip. We're all here to have a good time, after all.
This was not a systematic murderboning power trip, which is what is covered by the rules. The antag in question rolled the bee kit, then stealthily dosed several bar drinks with beesease, while dressed as a bee, exactly the kind of shit we want to see from antags on manuel. They found their target, a paramedic, in medbay, and used their one offensive option from the kit to attempt to kill them. Several heartstopper bees spawned which resulted in the four deaths. When arrested, they claimed they were from the bee liberation front, resulting in several minutes of interviews and fun roleplay as the warden tried to grill the bee activist.
The admin in question said I should submit a PR rather than discuss policy, but I feel like this merits further discussion.
I must have told you to make this thread like 8 times. What I did say was an admin complaint was probably a dumb place to put this.
Edit: maybe this should really be about bombing medbay roundstart.
Anyone would agree that roundstart bombing medbay is not appropriate. This is not bombing medbay at roundstart. This was an antag RPing after using the offensive tools given to them to kill 4 people.

If this thread is to have any value whatsoever, the question should be: Should there be a mandatory RP build up to destructive antagonism? How much RP for how much destruction? Is this even definable?

My answer is we continue to deal with this case by case. I think this situation was fine, feem does not.
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551886

wesoda25 wrote:bro run away like what. At most one or two people get mobbed and the rest escape, did the entire department really die?
The RNG bee spawns created some of the more lethal bees that kill you with one sting, so they probably got hit once and their hearts stopped.

This is why I suggested it was a code issue rather than a policy one.
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551887

You are defending dropping a toxin bee spawner at medbay at roundstart that killed four people, i.e. almost the whole department, on Manuel.

Edit: which killed them nearly instantly.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by angelstarri » #551888

FEEM MAKING IM DEAD POST LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

just fucking run away from the bees idiot
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Code: Select all

I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551889

On reflection this should have been posted in NTR Hut
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551890

This is not actually about me at all, but if you want to see "medbay out of commission for a whole round because someone killed everyone there at roundstart" as being IMDED then okay.

Edit: if this had had any semblance of "I AM KILLING FOR THE BEES!!" as he rushed in, or if it hadn't been on Manuel, obviously this would not be a thread.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Flatulent » #551894

wear space suit
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551904

feem wrote:This is not actually about me at all, but if you want to see "medbay out of commission for a whole round because someone killed everyone there at roundstart" as being IMDED then okay.

Edit: if this had had any semblance of "I AM KILLING FOR THE BEES!!" as he rushed in, or if it hadn't been on Manuel, obviously this would not be a thread.
So the difference between this one act being ok or not is saying something before throwing the nade.

This is the standard then? One phrase for one nade? 10 minutes of RP after the event is worthless, but one sentence before the event and it's completely valid?
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551906

The fact would remain that they attacked medbay at roundstart, but at least they would have done something other than run in silently and drop instakill bees. It's good that they roleplayed after that, but you were already saying this was fine before they did.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by EagleWiz » #551909

So, the antag had a target, the target was generally in a moderately populated area, and the antag used a area of effect traitor item to kill his target and 3 bystanders? That seems like exactly the reason those items exist.

Would this have been a problem even if the antag did use a bomb, assuming they waited to do it later in the round? Does MRP really mean you can't, for example, bomb someones office to kill them?

As for this specific act taking medbay out of commission, that seems like a gross overreaction - It's not hard to clear out bees with firearms or just bee proof suits, and once that's done there's a few medical staff dead inside the department that has the equipment designed for revival surgery. And computers that instruct people on how revival surgery works. An enterprising captain or head of personnel could probably promote someone with a basic knowledge of medical science to fix this. Even assuming a over-tuned fear of staying in your lane robotics already has experience with surgery.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by skoglol » #551912

feem wrote:buzzkill grenade in medbay about 20 minutes after shift start.
feem wrote:at roundstart that killed four people
feem wrote:at roundstart
feem wrote:they attacked medbay at roundstart
>20 minutes
>roundstart

Okay retard.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551914

fuck feem i totally remember you now based on your discord profile my bad

you're still wrong but im sorry i rudely forgot you earlier
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551919

skoglol wrote: Okay retard.
good post

Manuel rounds regularly run into two+ hours. Twenty minutes is basically roundstart.

I get the feeling that most of the people commenting in this thread don't play there very often. This thread isn't about the other servers.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551920

I get the feeling that most of the people commenting in this thread don't play there very often. This thread isn't about the other servers.
no one on the server really agreed with you after the actual context was clear either though

just because you think something should be one way and everyone else thinks it should be another way doesnt mean you're wrong you just want something different and can't get it without convincing everyone

in regards to the current ruleset, you are wrong though
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by wesoda25 » #551922

Roundstart is like the first 10 minutes, tops. Just because rounds last longer does not mean roundstart does too

I know I’m just latching onto a small part of your argument, but still
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551923

while it isn't directly relevant to this thread, several of the people in the server actually did agree that attacking medbay that early on Manuel is shitty.

And that's basically what this thread is about: how gamebreaking do we want Manuel antags to be that early in the shift? Which is why the thread is titled diseases and spawners, and why I explicitly stated in the beginning that I wanted to see more discussion about what kind of games are meant to be played, because as a regular recent Manuel player this round stood out to me as very different.

edit: and incidentally, while in an ideal situation medbay would bounce back pretty quickly, that is not what happened in this round. mostly due to other reasons, but it was heavily compounded by the fairly early gutting of the department. the reason the fact that medbay did not recover was relevant is because medbay actually requires players to get people back into the game now rather than just chucking a rando into a cloner, so taking out the people is more impactful than it used to be. and again: this is about Manuel.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #551924

feem wrote:this round stood out to me as very different.
nothing was different about this round except that you died unfairly

ss13 isn't fair and shouldn't be. Sometimes you're the patsy that gets their ass kicked for other people to have a fun story.
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551928

Stickymayhem wrote:nothing was different about this round except that you died unfairly
I mean

my byond regdate is 2010, my first play in tg was 2014, I was an admin for two years, and I've been playing Manuel heavily for over a month since I came back.

I'm pretty used to unfair deaths. in this case however, even the person who used the weapon said in ooc after the round that they didn't know how much damage it would do and apologized for it.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to deflect from the question I'm raising here, which is: how much early (and yes, I mean first thirty minutes, because Manuel rounds are longer and that's one of the chief distinguishing characteristics from the other servers) damage is desired wrt things like spawners and diseases? this really would still be an issue for me even if I hadn't been involved. this round killed medbay early on which heavily impacted the rest of the round in a way which normally does not happen on Manuel, and the person who actually did it apologized for not realizing how much impact it had.

hence the policy thread. I didn't even name you to begin with in this thread because I wanted it to be about that question.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #551942

Traitor bombed his target which happened to kill bystanders.

This isn't "murderbone".

This also isn't fucking yogstation - you don't get punished because "oh honey you killed someone that wasn't on your list you're a bad widdle boi yousa in big doodoo dis time!"
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Farquaar » #551945

The Bee Liberation terrorist sounds based. I'd rather not see antags become too afraid to be interesting because anything less precise than a 1v1 melee battle might be "murderbone". Friendly antags are boring enough as it is, and stealthy approaches sometimes fail without ever contributing to the round.

Antags drive round conflict, and a part of that is killing important crewmembers, damaging important equipment and inconveniencing other players. MRP just means you have to put in a bit of effort to not be silent and/or personality-free. If someone can do that while terrorizing the station with grenades, all the power to them.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by RaveRadbury » #551946

oranges is already looking into gating mass destruction traitor items behind a wall; this of course doesn't prevent someone from making their own WMD's, but it's a good start.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by feem » #551951

Farquaar wrote:not be silent
while it's already addressed earlier in the thread and AFTER the medbay attack they did bring some story to the game, at the time of that attack it was exactly that: silent.

again I don't think this was the intent of the player in question, but while diseases or spawners have been released in similar fashion a few times recently on manuel (an ayy zombie round comes to mind), silently dunking medbay is a whole lot less common than it is on, say, bagil or event hall.

in no way am I suggesting a hugbox or a nerf of content that drives the round. my issue here is that before they were engaged in that rp they killed the department, and the immediate admin (and rules, apparently) response -- the later rp not yet having occurred -- was that we should expect that.

and that, even after the rp, the player who did it apologized for the impact and stated they wouldn't have done it if they knew it'd cause such an issue.

also in no way am I suggesting HRP. but I would love to have been able to recognize that there was a lunatic in a bee costume promoting bee rights before I had a heart attack, and I'm fairly sure the other people in medbay would have too. and that's basically what I'm asking for here: is there a middle ground between "silently knocking out a whole department while they're still trying to set up operating computers and defibs" and whatever hyperbolic response it is you think I'm asking for?

yes, a modicum of effort in the room before killing the whole med staff would've been great.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Farquaar » #551952

feem wrote:
Farquaar wrote:not be silent
while it's already addressed earlier in the thread and AFTER the medbay attack they did bring some story to the game,
Farquaar wrote:not be silent and/or personality-free
You may disagree, but I think that a crazy man dressed as a bee barging into a crowded room and throwing a bee grenade is not personality-free.

Do you expect mime antags to shout Allahu Akbar before they throw grenades too? Does every attack have to be preceded with "some of you guys are alright, don't go into medbay tomorrow"?
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Stickymayhem » #552021

"silently knocking out a whole department while they're still trying to set up operating computers and defibs"
I think even your fixation on this aspect doesn't make much sense. As has been said multiple times in the thread, antags should drive conflict. A medbay being interrupted is an interesting source of conflict since now people have to get that shit off the ground in unideal circumstances.

If this happened every single round then it'd be a problem, but in hundreds of normal medbay set ups, 20 minutes into a round medbay is full of bees. It's the kind of spice that keeps ss13 playable after a decade as you've done.
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Jack7D1 » #552029

The G virus was more griefy than bee man.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Cobby » #552212

If an antag has to "build up" before they can kill non-targets, how are they suppose to ensure their actual target doesn't use this advantageously (not even considering non-targets might use it in a way that now has the antag sitting out for 1.5+ hours)?

If you knew the man was going to bomb medbay with beenades for his target would you have done anything different? The answer is of course you would, so it's not fair to ask the antag to play bond villain and lay out the plan in such a way imo.
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #552215

if people walk into colorful bees instead of using anti bee gear (spacesuits,borgs, other common suits that have tick flag like firesuit/biosuit?/radsuit?) it can be considered as RP induced suicide, they acted as human attracted to flying skittles and died, this is rp not an issue
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Re: Are disease and spawner grenades okay on Manuel?

Post by confused rock » #552234

The bee grenade didn't heavily disrupt the round to anywhere near the extent that going around killing the entire station or maxcapping every department could. if four people died I'd be astonished if people were so stupid they couldn't fully save at least 3 of them, let alone borg them. It wasn't without purpose either.
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