Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

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Timonk
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Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by Timonk » #552567

Let me further elaborate:
I. E. In the current ban appeal of the RD getting killed by the milo dude, he says that RD had a bad reputation from the previous round as grounds for him being denied captainship. I personally think that this would be okay because you can't just be a massive dick in the previous round then pretend you did nothing wrong.
Would that part alone be considered metagrudging?

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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by wesoda25 » #552571

Honestly would like an answer to this as well. Reminds me of spyrosharks insuls ban
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by Cobby » #552602

Per the rules,

If they are antag and you're grudging them over their actions: Yes it's metagrudge.

If not: No it's not.
characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used.
People who play statics run the risk of having patterns about their character being gamed in either a positive or negative light. So long as the person isn't going out of their way to harass you due to past instances (rule 1), they should be free to treat you unfavorably. Random name/body if you don't want people to treat you off of previous rounds imo, especially if you do dickish stuff.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #552622

so long as it's limited to a bad impression sure and direct actions require some kind of impetus from the current round to act on. It wouldn't be reasonable to immediately demote a security officer because the officer was shit in a previous round, but it's fine to remember someone as competent or incompetent and base your trust on that.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by SkeletalElite » #552656

Considering someone's reputation should only impact your decision making so much. In the relevant ban appeal, they killed this guy seemingly even before he did anything dumb that round. RDs can take the role of acting captain in the event that one is lacking. I think opposing this dude becoming captain was reasonable but killing him was not. Obviously the victim in question was a moron and definitely would have given the crew a reason to valid him given enough time and the smart choice would have been to acquire some gamer gear so you are capable of actually killing him when the time comes.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by HommandoSA » #552660

I think to a degree you should be able to base your response to someones behavior on the actions they have consistently taken in previous rounds. For example, if someone has rolled botanist 10 times in a row and grew super deathnettle or some other dangerous plant and distributed it, then it makes sense for security to drop in on them unannounced and take their stuff if it could be dangerous even if they hadn't done anything bad that round.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by Screemonster » #552700

SkeletalElite wrote:Considering someone's reputation should only impact your decision making so much. In the relevant ban appeal, they killed this guy seemingly even before he did anything dumb that round. RDs can take the role of acting captain in the event that one is lacking. I think opposing this dude becoming captain was reasonable but killing him was not. Obviously the victim in question was a moron and definitely would have given the crew a reason to valid him given enough time and the smart choice would have been to acquire some gamer gear so you are capable of actually killing him when the time comes.
Either way, if the reason he's upset with the guy is because he ickocked in the previous round, then grudging someone IC for something they did OOC is by definition metagrudge

ahelp it if you give that much of a shit but you don't get to be vigilante admin

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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by cacogen » #552705

no
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by pubby » #552706

I had a similar thing happen to me when I started playing. I was captain and a non-antag broke into my office. I arrested him and took him to security, but his friend broke him out and the two came back and killed me. I didn't ahelp it because I was new and didn't realize they were non-antags until after the game ended.

The round after that, I'm the captain and catch the two of them inside security breaking into the warden's office. I pull out my gun and lethal them. Trialmin bwoinks me. Tells me that kill was against the rules and that I'm on a path to getting banned. I tell the admin I was upset from how these two played last round. Admin then hits me with a metagrudging note.

Metagrudging is a stupid rule to have spelled-out. We obviously don't want people griefing the same person every round, but the "don't be a dick" rule covers that case and more. Holding a reputation in this game is unavoidable. Everyone judges each other based on past actions, but only the naive players that talk to admins get banned for it. You end up banning decent players and letting shitters off the hook, all in the name of some idealized isolated round that doesn't exist. Because really, metagrudging rules benefits no one but shitters and attention whores.

Bad ban BTW.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by SkeletalElite » #552724

Screemonster wrote:
SkeletalElite wrote:Considering someone's reputation should only impact your decision making so much. In the relevant ban appeal, they killed this guy seemingly even before he did anything dumb that round. RDs can take the role of acting captain in the event that one is lacking. I think opposing this dude becoming captain was reasonable but killing him was not. Obviously the victim in question was a moron and definitely would have given the crew a reason to valid him given enough time and the smart choice would have been to acquire some gamer gear so you are capable of actually killing him when the time comes.
Either way, if the reason he's upset with the guy is because he ickocked in the previous round, then grudging someone IC for something they did OOC is by definition metagrudge

ahelp it if you give that much of a shit but you don't get to be vigilante admin

you know what's worse than a jannie? a wannabe jannie
Technically yes, but if all you do is get some weapons ahead of time (not against the rules) and wait for someone to give you a sufficient reason to kill them (not against the rules as long as you're not kill baiting) then it is completely unenforceable to ban for a meta grudge in that scenario. Obviously not everyone will give you a reason to kill them, but from the description of what the dude was up to in the previous round, it seemed like only a matter of a time before he provoked someone for escalation.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by CDranzer » #552817

You are Smith Robertson. You are a space man on a space station. You do your job quietly and with moderate efficiency. You have never taken a command role in your life. At the bar, you order water. Your favourite food is uncooked donk pockets. You could get away with murder by sole virtue of nobody ever recognizing you. Fortunately for the station, you have never had a desire to cause trouble. Or cause anything, really.

On this space station, you have co-workers.

Heals-the-Kittens, the friendly neighborhood lizard. When she's not working herself to death in medbay, she enjoys setting up story times as curator, creating color-coordinated tray arrangements in botany, and PDAing people with encouraging messages. Her favourite drink is anything virgin, and she's not picky about what she eats, but she prefers to do it in private as to not upset anybody. Generally pacifist, but on rare occasion has been known to gravely wound to save a life. Rolled antag once. Tearfully turned in her unlocked 20-tc PDA to security 3 minutes into the round. Required 20 minutes of consoling in the bar from the local Moth. Her objectives were to steal the prototype hardsuit and a tank of plasma. She was the RD.

Johny Fucknuts. Johny enjoys Chemistry and Xenobiology. When he's not blowing up dispensers or going braindead ten minutes in, he likes to scream incoherent insults and space random heads of staff. When playing as Captain, he orders either the meteor or the SM shuttle exclusively. As security, he enjoys clubbing people to death for stealing the pot plants from outside cargo. As an antag, murders large swaths of the station with horrifying wordless brutality. Was once caught without bloodied clothes. Turns out it was actually a changeling.

You wake up on the arrivals shuttle. You walk down the hallway to find Heals and Johny locked in a brutal fight to the death. In front of you is a bloody stun baton. It has enough charge for exactly one hit.

Make your choice.


The fact is, it doesn't matter what the rules say, people are people. You're expected to be able to draw a distinction between the character and the job, but you will make decisions based on reputations. If those decisions become blatant enough, you may get bwoinked for it, but this strikes me as one of those inevitable facts of life that come from being a space man on a space station. I don't think you're ever going to find a hard line on this, and honestly, that may be for the best.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by bandit » #553358

I think a key factor here is metagrudging on OOC vs. IC character.

VERY BAD, DON'T DO THIS: "I killed you because you're bandit, my least favorite admin who banned me once."
BAD, BUT NOT AS BAD: "You're Fortune Ray and you arrested me once so I'm going to punch you whenever I see you."
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by confused rock » #554187

The most vital point of the metagrudge rule is just to clarify that people who were antag last round aren't valid the next round for stupid people. The rest is what we just add on top of it. If for example you hate a guy so you kill them fnr one round then that's just a kill fnr. There's no "metagrudge" component to it that makes it a worse crime. If something is okay to do to someone you've never seen before, it's okay to do it to someone you hate.

Ps CD the lawful good action in that scenario is to not baton either of them you fucking idiot
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by annoyinggreencatgirl » #554190

confused rock wrote:The most vital point of the metagrudge rule is just to clarify that people who were antag last round aren't valid the next round for stupid people. The rest is what we just add on top of it. If for example you hate a guy so you kill them fnr one round then that's just a kill fnr. There's no "metagrudge" component to it that makes it a worse crime. If something is okay to do to someone you've never seen before, it's okay to do it to someone you hate.

Ps CD the lawful good action in that scenario is to not baton either of them you fucking idiot
I know scrolling down or using Ctrl+F is really hard and complicated, so I found this for you.
Rule 1 Precedents.

...

4. Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.
The precedent pertaining to metagrudging literally does not mention it being tied to somebody being an antag last round or whatever, and makes it clear it is a separate offense in general.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by confused rock » #554192

it says unprovoked grief and unprovoked grief of specific targets are bad (aka the exact same fucking thing)
which is what I am saying
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by Reeeee » #554193

i play static and expect to get metagrudged every once a week.
That's just the reality of it, latest was some CE man thinking he was immune to grieffing me on the following round after i stole his CE suit on the shuttle as captain.
Next round he shows up, attacks me 4 no raisins and gets killed for being shitler. Even if i had died i wouldn't have ahelped.
It's literally the same person you run into 5 minutes later. Fact is you are still the same cunt who did that thing you did. People are going to be angry.
Don't play static if you can't deal.

If the grief goes beyond "related events" then yeah, maybe ask admin to talk to the guy but don't act entitled and expect you to not get griffed.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by annoyinggreencatgirl » #554203

confused rock wrote:it says unprovoked grief and unprovoked grief of specific targets are bad (aka the exact same fucking thing)
which is what I am saying
...Why do think they're mentioned separately if they're the same thing? Maybe the people who wrote the rules meant to intimate that they're NOT!? Gee...
Stealing an ID randomly because you want to make general trouble or tide with the access is probably fine, not great if it's something you do constantly every single round, definitely not OK if you do it to the same person constantly because you hate them. Likewise you probably won't get a metagrudge note for giving somebody you hate a single unprovoked punch once a round.

Ergo:
confused rock wrote:If something is okay to do to someone you've never seen before, it's okay to do it to someone you hate.
Isn't correct.
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by confused rock » #554211

they're mentioned separately to clarify for idiots that the latter is as bad as the former
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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by BeeSting12 » #554266

Timonk wrote:Let me further elaborate:
I. E. In the current ban appeal of the RD getting killed by the milo dude, he says that RD had a bad reputation from the previous round as grounds for him being denied captainship. I personally think that this would be okay because you can't just be a massive dick in the previous round then pretend you did nothing wrong.
Would that part alone be considered metagrudging?

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Re: Is taking someone's bad reputation from previous rounds metagrudging?

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #562219

Yes, while we cannot expect players to ignore the fact John Doe has been a shitty captain the last four shifts, it does not mean that they can run up to them and gun them down shift start. If someone’s been consistently shitty enough where people feel they have to gun them down before they can interfere with the round you should probably have an admin intervene and examine their behavior; because its probably rule-breaking.
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