Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

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Cobby
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Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #556200

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ptions.txt

Code: Select all

## ALERT LEVELS ###
ALERT_GREEN All threats to the station have passed. Security may not have weapons visible, privacy laws are once again fully enforced.  Searches are permitted only with probable cause.
ALERT_BLUE_UPTO The station has received reliable information about possible hostile activity on the station. Security staff may have weapons visible. Searches are permitted only with probable cause.
ALERT_BLUE_DOWNTO The immediate threat has passed. Security may no longer have weapons drawn at all times, but may continue to have them visible. Searches are permitted only with probable cause.
ALERT_RED_UPTO There is an immediate serious threat to the station. Security may have weapons unholstered at all times. Random searches are allowed and advised.
ALERT_RED_DOWNTO The station's destruction has been averted. There is still however an immediate serious threat to the station. Security may have weapons unholstered at all times, random searches are allowed and advised.
ALERT_DELTA Destruction of the station is imminent. All crew are instructed to obey all instructions given by heads of staff. Any violations of these orders can be punished by death. This is not a drill.
True Random Searching should never be approved and you should feel bad if you invoke this (and I will bwoink you, ask you not to do it again, and note for it).
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Istoprocent1 » #558270

You might be able to understand the point, if you read the posts above. Nobody is moving any goal posts. It just becomes tiresome to regurgitate the same points over and over again.

Random searches are not a problem given that they meet any of the following criteria - code red (if this becomes a problem, then it is more of a "people going on red alert one" rather than "security one") or confirmed conversion antags (mostly cult, because revolution is a silly gamemode where the antags have no distinguishable gear).

Should anybody just go nuts on random searches on code red for no reason? Probably not.
Should we remove code red random searches and thus allow antags just automatically succeed? Probably not.
Should anybody use code red random searches to locate missing traitor objectives or try to find further leads why half the station was blown up? Yes.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #558385

You’re not explaining why you can’t just use what CAUSED the reason to red alert to also be your reason to all out search and then proceed to say I’m wanting to “just let the antags win”.

I have to keep regurgitating my argument because you continually conflate it after me saying several times that it is not what I want. Literally read my last post.

I’m just going to ignore your future responses as it doesn’t appear you’re discussing in good faith.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Istoprocent1 » #558393

Cobby wrote:You’re not explaining why you can’t just use what CAUSED the reason to red alert to also be your reason to all out search and then proceed to say I’m wanting to “just let the antags win”.

I have to keep regurgitating my argument because you continually conflate it after me saying several times that it is not what I want. Literally read my last post.

I’m just going to ignore your future responses as it doesn’t appear you’re discussing in good faith.
Yup. If I don't agree with you, then my posts are in bad faith. Got it.

You want to change something that doesn't need changing and is not a problem based on "one new guy did a random search on code blue".
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by CDranzer » #558396

I'm of two minds
One, this is such a dumb change because all it does is it makes something that was essentially never used illegal
Two, this change is so inconsequential you might as well implement it because the thing it makes illegal was essentially never used
Was this based on a specific case? Like Cobby did you get redcode randomed while running around with traitor gear? And are you absolutely sure it was random and not that you did something mildly suspicious?
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Jack7D1 » #558399

I often hang out in dorms cabins at roundstart, usually I'm afk or something but didn't want to latejoin. Just for a few minutes. And almost every single time I find myself completely stripped naked and my PDA and earpiece stolen. I know it's some member of security, since it shows their name in chat logs. It's unpleasant. And should not be allowed.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Istoprocent1 » #558400

Jack7D1 wrote:I often hang out in dorms cabins at roundstart, usually I'm afk or something but didn't want to latejoin. Just for a few minutes. And almost every single time I find myself completely stripped naked and my PDA and earpiece stolen. I know it's some member of security, since it shows their name in chat logs. It's unpleasant. And should not be allowed.
If this happens to you, then just press F1. Security is not allowed to search you on code blue without a probable cause - "he had a PDA in hands in cabin 4" is not probable cause, while "he had blood on him" would be. The change proposed here has nothing to do with the situation you are describing.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #559455

CDranzer wrote: Was this based on a specific case? Like Cobby did you get redcode randomed while running around with traitor gear? And are you absolutely sure it was random and not that you did something mildly suspicious?
No but nice try. This was based on a discord conversation but as people have described here random searching already happens when it ISNT allowed. If you see it being acted when it's NOT allowed you can believe it happens when it is.

I agree it's pretty minor though, especially when (brrt broken record time) if you're in red alert I imagine you can probably all-out search anyways. This will just ensure you do it because of whatever the situation is that put you in to red alert (what I have ZERO issue with), not because "the alert says I can" (what I have issue with). Thankfully, that just means it's a simple change.

Not every policy has to be a sweeping controversial issue (although people in here obviously try to make it one), and not every policy issue has to be born out of ided.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #559457

Istoprocent1 wrote: Yup. If I don't agree with you, then my posts are in bad faith. Got it.

You want to change something that doesn't need changing and is not a problem based on "one new guy did a random search on code blue".
I know I said I wouldn't but if you want to pretend to discuss in good faith just elaborate on the below statement:
You’re not explaining why you can’t just use what CAUSED the reason to red alert to also be your reason to all out search.
I look forward to your good-intentioned response!
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by CDranzer » #559463

Cobby wrote:
CDranzer wrote: Was this based on a specific case? Like Cobby did you get redcode randomed while running around with traitor gear? And are you absolutely sure it was random and not that you did something mildly suspicious?
No but nice try. This was based on a discord conversation but as people have described here random searching already happens when it ISNT allowed. If you see it being acted when it's NOT allowed you can believe it happens when it is.
How do the people who got searched know for a fact that it was random, though? This sounds like we're getting into the territory of what constitutes "just cause"
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #559470

They might not, in which case they ahelp and admins would look into it.

It seemingly works for blue alert according to previous posts.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by bandit » #559604

ITT: people who don't understand the difference between probable cause, reasonable suspicion, and random searches
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admin feedback pls
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by pugie » #562137

Is this gonna get a conclusion from headmins or?
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Skillywatt » #562157

op is a terrible idea and kinda implies "ided" from a rev round.

the primary way you actually win revs as a head of staff is ordering a bunch of implants and randomly dropping people and implanting them against their will.


a better suggestion is to actually enforce the alert levels, at least on manuel.

punish people for randomly dropping crew and implanting them if someone hasn't swiped red yet.

edit: also adding yet another layer of "wut" for the admins to have to use judgement is poor seeing as how we have an admin ITT actually saying searching someone who met some suspicion from a detective scanner report was "random", lol
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #562167

how convenient you managed to read into some admin's post (not sure what you're even referencing, really) as well as conjure up my motives (I have never lost due to a random search fyi) for this thread yet failed to read the post, from me in less than 10 replies, stating I am perfectly fine with "random searching" DURING BLUE in the case of an antagonist with conversion mechanics.

If your first post on this thread is the assumption i made it in bad faith why bother taking the time to even respond further? My guess is that people who do this knows that it is in fact not in bad faith, and rather a defense mechanism for them to post in bad faith because OP supposedly did it first (he, meaning I, did not). Very tiring really.

See https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 50#p559457

If you can answer that, which seems like no one actually can, then I'd be happy to have a dialogue with you.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Istoprocent1 » #562188

Cobby wrote:If you can answer that, which seems like no one actually can, then I'd be happy to have a dialogue with you.
There is no dialogue, you are just repeating your initial statements and then taking a stance as if you had destroyed them in an argument. People have brought up multiple times that there is no issue with how things are at the moment.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #562308

Please post a direct response to

"You’re not explaining why you can’t just use what CAUSED the reason to red alert to also be your reason to all out search."

so I may stand corrected.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Istoprocent1 » #562317

Cobby wrote:Please post a direct response to

"You’re not explaining why you can’t just use what CAUSED the reason to red alert to also be your reason to all out search."

so I may stand corrected.
I hope you see the irony in your post.

a) If you didn't RED ALERT yourself, then all you need to know is that the station is in a state of an EMERGENCY.

b) If you RED ALERTED yourself, then it becomes an issue of "WHEN CAN YOU RED ALERT?" policy rather than the one you are presenting here. If somebody RED ALERTED for shits and giggles, then it becomes their problem.

From the policy thread one might think that there is this huge issue of security running amok randomly searching everybody, whenever anybody swipes RED, which is not the case at all.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #562459

It hardly ever happens, I don't think there is anything to suggest that it happens with frequency in this thread. This is policy discussion, frequency is wholely irrelevant to the thread unless you're going to put it into context of your point, such as "it should be allowed because it hardly ever happens".

Thank you for finally responding to the question. I disagree,I think if the implication is you only know that it's red alert, you should have an obligation to find out what is going on so you know what to look for. If for instance it's red alert because of nuke ops and you start randomly searching people because lol red alert then you might negatively impact stopping them, for instance. I don't think krok or any other sec player who understands mechanics would actively avoid trying to find this information anyways, at which point you'd supplement your search reason with that which would be what I want.

I don't think latejoins get instantly told its red alert either, so if you're random searching in this scenario I imagine you're not taking alert level into consideration (which is more/less already against the rules since the default is green/blue).
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Flatulent » #562484

I think we should specify situations where searches are acceptable. Randomly checking a man that doesn’t look suspicious in the slightest and whose prints or fibers haven’t been detected anywhere doesn’t make sense. Randomly searching a man with hidden face and no ID should be given a green light though.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #562493

there is no need for any policy change, rando searching 4 no reason is against the current rules, if you feel like you got rando'd just an ahelp and the dude responding "x man was all bloody and near a corpse when i came" is enough to confirm as ic issue fuck op and fuck you
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #562508

during blue/green, yes. seek help.

@flat I literally already have defined it for the purpose of this thread what constitutes random, If you want to have a discussion on what should be considered probable cause for searching this is probably not a good outlet to do so.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by saprasam » #563041

hot take: this is a problem with security players and how dumbfounding they are and not with things that have been in the game for years
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by BONERMASTER » #563149

You roll antag for the first time in a while, you get your gear and hang around in the bar, thinking what to do next, when a cat in a red jumpsuit pounces you with a flash, exclaiming "Bazoooo!~ Random search!" and then fucks you.

And now tell me how anyone, both security and antags, would want this.
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by teepeepee » #563150

BONERMASTER wrote:You roll antag for the first time in a while, you get your gear and hang around in the bar, thinking what to do next, when a cat in a red jumpsuit pounces you with a flash, exclaiming "Bazoooo!~ Random search!" and then fucks you.

And now tell me how anyone, both security and antags, would want this.
you're either hanging in the bar during code red or the security officer is breaking the rules (implying you did nothing to give away your antag status/weren't franed by someone else) so you got dunked or the sec man gets banned, working as intended
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by BONERMASTER » #563192

Oh it's against the rules already? Since when?
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by teepeepee » #563197

"random" searches are not allowed in code blue/green, so the situation you describe could only happen in code red or in a rule-breaking way
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Cobby » #564627

nearly 2 months now for something that will rarely happen anyways, can I get some sort of resolve here?
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Re: Remove Random Searching in Alert Levels

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #566820

References to random searching have been removed from game_options.txt. The only acceptable time for it is during crisis situations, such as late into a cult round, where choosing not to stun and search someone is likely to lead to your quick death.
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