[MANUEL] Should antags that are exempt from Rule 5 be given Rule 6 protections?

[NoxVS]

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Roleplay_Rules

So you don't have to go look it up,

Rule 5
Antagonism and murderboning.
You're an antag, great! Treat your role as an interesting challenge and not an excuse to destroy other people’s game experience. Your actions should make the game more fun, more exciting and more enjoyable for everyone; you can treat your objectives as suggestions on what you should attempt to achieve but you are also encouraged to ignore them if you've got a better idea. You do NOT have to act in a nefarious or evil way, but you are not allowed to just go on a silent rampage and eliminate all the players in a power trip. We're all here to have a good time, after all.

Rule 6
Be kind to the bad guys.
Because antagonists are often the driving force for most rounds, some amount of goodwill should be extended to them. Basically, try to interact and communicate with antagonists and try to create an exciting narrative, rather than, say, immediately laser them to death when you see them. Communication and dialogue are expected on both ends (although not necessarily required.)

The main point of this discussion is for wizards (who dont have to follow Rule 5 but are protected by Rule 6), specifically, the cancer that is a friendly wizard. The sole driving force of the round but it just sits at the bar and does nothing and the crew feel as if they have no way to respond to them. There is no risk of death for them because of Rule 6 so they just avoid all conflict entirely.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

I asked some questions similar to this and didn't get any replies.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=26184
If things along these lines are even being discussed I gather it'll probably be some time before answers are provided.

[Arianya]

I feel like a certain amount of common sense applies to this.

The nightmarish shadow monster who lurks in maintenance and can turn into mist? It's a pretty natural reaction to want to gun them down if you can.

The human traitor? Not really as much of a fight or flight, rule 6 applies.

As the thread linked to in the first response says though, we generally try to avoid valid/not valid tables or flowcharts, especially given that some antagonists can vary in threat.

As for friendly wizards, I do get the complaint - they've never been my favourite gimmick. Ideally there should be admins online who can help resolve things via roleplay means (spawning a second wizard whose objective is to hunt down the traitor is a favourite, or the CentCom Space Inquisition coming to town) - but in the absence of that I feel there should probably be a certain amount of flexibility given to crew to voice their reservations about wineing and dining the morally bankrupt space wizard and then take action.

[NoxVS]

As for friendly wizards, I do get the complaint - they've never been my favourite gimmick. Ideally there should be admins online who can help resolve things via roleplay means (spawning a second wizard whose objective is to hunt down the traitor is a favourite, or the CentCom Space Inquisition coming to town) - but in the absence of that I feel there should probably be a certain amount of flexibility given to crew to voice their reservations about wineing and dining the morally bankrupt space wizard and then take action.

There shouldn't ever be a regular part of the game that requires admin intervention to make work.

You can't even try to do stuff about it as crew. Captains and security often allow wizards to just join the crew and have occasionally just given them all access and ignored them entirely. Because no one can just dunk them, friendly wizards just avoid conflict entirely and do absolutely nothing.

I once was chaplain and was calling a wizard a heretic, threatening them, repeatedly throwing chairs at them, and they entire time they just sat there and did nothing. These wizards choose to be friendly and don't drive the round forward at all. Any attempts at conflict are completely ignored so the person can just go bar RP

[XivilaiAnaxes]

Oh no poor nox couldn't valid hunt the antagonist

The game is ruined

[Arianya]

As for friendly wizards, I do get the complaint - they've never been my favourite gimmick. Ideally there should be admins online who can help resolve things via roleplay means (spawning a second wizard whose objective is to hunt down the traitor is a favourite, or the CentCom Space Inquisition coming to town) - but in the absence of that I feel there should probably be a certain amount of flexibility given to crew to voice their reservations about wineing and dining the morally bankrupt space wizard and then take action.

There shouldn't ever be a regular part of the game that requires admin intervention to make work.

You can't even try to do stuff about it as crew. Captains and security often allow wizards to just join the crew and have occasionally just given them all access and ignored them entirely. Because no one can just dunk them, friendly wizards just avoid conflict entirely and do absolutely nothing.

I once was chaplain and was calling a wizard a heretic, threatening them, repeatedly throwing chairs at them, and they entire time they just sat there and did nothing. These wizards choose to be friendly and don't drive the round forward at all. Any attempts at conflict are completely ignored so the person can just go bar RP

Ultimately this is a roleplay game and there's only so much we can enforce programatically. There is nothing anyone can do programatically that stops a wizard from playing friendly if the crew decide to go along with it.

Is it boring to have a friendly wizard? In my opinion yes, but there's no set of code restrictions we can set up that preclude the need for an admin to provide oversight to ensure the rules are followed, at some point.

And the point of my post was, that as long as it's not just "lel valids" spams fireaxe, I think there's some leniency to be had in letting people complain about the existence of a wizard and try to appeal to the heads/security before taking matters into their own hands - which to me fits within Rule 6 while allowing conflict to be driven.