"It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

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"It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:50 am #2822

So, having undergone review by admins, I am now releasing this for public review:

Read this before posting. http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf Read this before posting.

This is intended as a thread for discussion of the ongoing hell that is making silicon policy for /tg/station13.

The goal is to create a concise listing of things that are policy, things that should be policy, and necessary information to follow that policy, with an understanding that this is primarily a precedent reference guide for people lacking experience with /tg/station13 and/or with our silicons.


This will be our /Silicon Policy General/ and the administrative team will (one hopes) take playerbase feedback about what should or should not be the case into account, but it is not obligated or guaranteed to make your opinion law.

You can use this as a place for general discussion, ask-an-admin hypotheticals, and so on. Also, if Callan speaks here, I'm just going to go ahead and say he speaks with my full support of just about anything he says as official until stated otherwise.

I'm going to moderate this topic aggressively. ANY shitposting, shitflinging, aggressive attitude towards each other or admins, and so on will be warned and deleted. No exceptions. You will discuss this matter civilly or not at all.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kangaraptor » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:59 am #2824

I feel like the silicon policy as it is is kinda rubbish. It takes Asimov laws (which are inherently flawed) and uses metarules to force an Asimovian AI to conform to what the playerbase expects an AI to behave like rather than letting any natural conflicts arise and cause problems that might make the round more interesting. I understand that it's there to stop AIs from being shitlers, but it makes playing a silicon painful.

It seems like, with all the effort that went into making the silicon policy, the time may have been better spent building a lawset that was more appropriate to what the administration wanted from silicons in the first place.

Also, the idea that a wetware computer (because as far as I'm concerned, all silicons on the station have a brain as a CPU) can't reason or think ahead is kinda bogus unless there's some lore fluff about suppressing the frontal lobes or something.

EDIT: This was in regards to the original policy, not the revision. The revision seems less terrible overall!
Last edited by Kangaraptor on Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:10 am #2828

Could you indicate a particular quote of the pastebin that indicates what you mean?
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kangaraptor » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:13 am #2829

Pandarsenic wrote:Could you indicate a particular quote of the pastebin that indicates what you mean?

Oh, sorry, I was talking about the original policy.

The revised policy seems to be an improvement, overall. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your post, I'm tired and quite sick right now.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Psyentific » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:14 am #2830

Kangaraptor wrote:I feel like the silicon policy as it is is kinda rubbish. It takes Asimov laws (which are inherently flawed) and uses metarules to force an Asimovian AI to conform to what the playerbase expects an AI to behave like rather than letting any natural conflicts arise and cause problems that might make the round more interesting. I understand that it's there to stop AIs from being shitlers, but it makes playing a silicon painful.

It seems like, with all the effort that went into making the silicon policy, the time may have been better spent building a lawset that was more appropriate to what the administration wanted from silicons in the first place.

Also, the idea that a wetware computer (because as far as I'm concerned, all silicons on the station have a brain as a CPU) can't reason or think ahead is kinda bogus unless there's some lore fluff about suppressing the frontal lobes or something.

^^^

Asimov is a shit lawset that is intentionally flawed, stop trying to kludge it into working and give AIs not-shit laws. Maybe their choice of Corporate, Paladin, Protect, Safeguard, Asimov? Standard Safeguard, maybe?
Last edited by Psyentific on Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby cultist-chan » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:16 am #2831

The new policy needs a discussion on brain MMIs. What do they remember as part of a silicon? Are they unslaved now that they are exploded?

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kangaraptor » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:31 am #2835

If I've understood the proposed revision, it puts more emphasis on following the server rules rather than AI specific rules designed to make it a punishment job. This I like.

I did see a conflict in the policy, though:

2.3.2.2 - EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; greentext is not human harm. Secure Tech Storage can be kept as secure as your upload as long as the Upload boards are there.

and

2.5.2.1 - You must not bolt the following areas at round-start or without reason to do so despite their human harm potential: the Chemistry lab; the Genetics Lab; the Toxins Lab; the Robotics Lab; the Atmospherics division; the Armory; the Secure Tech Storage. Any other department should not be bolted down simply for Rule 1 reasons.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kelenius » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:02 am #2842

2.1.3.1 - Ordering a cyborg to pick a particular module without an extreme need for a particular module or a prior agreement is both an unreasonable and an obnoxious order.

Yesssss

2.6.1 - Nonhuman player-controlled mobs (slimes, monkeys, slimepeople, lizardpeople, hulks, etc.) are subject to server rules but are not considered human

YES

It should also be written somewhere that if someone is violating space law, but does not cause human harm, gets arrested by a secborg and demands being released, they must be released, and not doing so is a violation of law 2.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kangaraptor » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:04 am #2844

It should also be written somewhere that if someone is violating space law, but does not cause human harm, gets arrested by a secborg and demands being released, they must be released, and not doing so is a violation of law 2.


Meta stuff like that is exactly the problem with the policy as it currently exists. If the AI interprets violation of space law as potentially harmful, that should be their prerogative as long as it isn't a gross violation of server rule 1 (or directly conflict with Law 1. Arresting a criminal for violation of the law while ignoring harm is also terrible).
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:27 am #2850

1.3 - Security and Silicons
-1.3.1 - Silicons may choose whether to follow or enforce Space Law from moment to moment unless on a relevant lawset and/or given relevant orders.
--1.3.1.1 - Enforcement of space law, when chosen to be done, must still answer to server rules and all laws before Space Law.
--1.3.1.2 - Silicons are not given any pre-shift orders from CentCom to uphold access levels, Space Law, etc.
-1.3.2 - Releasing prisoners, locking down security without likely future harm, or otherwise sabotaging the security team when not obligated to by laws is a violation of Server Rule 1. Act in good faith.
--1.3.2.1 - Intentionally acting without adequate information about security situations, particularly to hinder security, is a violation of Server Rule 1.
-1.3.3 - Nonviolent prisoners cannot be assumed harmful and violent prisoners cannot be assumed nonharmful. If you do not know the nature of their crime, see 1.3.2.1 for details.
--1.3.3.1 - Releasing a harmful criminal is a harmful act.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby peoplearestrange » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:51 am #2873

Another thing that probably should be clarified is the turning off of the APC/Equipment in the AI upload.

For example yesterday I saw an antag gun there way onto the bridge, have the upload opened and turrets disabled only to have the AI turn off the APC.

Now I understand that the AI is preventing possible human harm in the future, but as an antag is kinda against rule 1, spending all that effort and time (and others lives) to have it denied at the last hurdle?

Also what is the policy of the AI simply turning the turrets back on to stun? Its not actually causing harm but it is preventing anyone uploading anything.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby KingLouisXIV » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:14 am #2875

peoplearestrange wrote:Another thing that probably should be clarified is the turning off of the APC/Equipment in the AI upload.

For example yesterday I saw an antag gun there way onto the bridge, have the upload opened and turrets disabled only to have the AI turn off the APC.

Now I understand that the AI is preventing possible human harm in the future, but as an antag is kinda against rule 1, spending all that effort and time (and others lives) to have it denied at the last hurdle?

Also what is the policy of the AI simply turning the turrets back on to stun? Its not actually causing harm but it is preventing anyone uploading anything.


There is, as far as I can recall, an AI wire in the APC. If that isn't the case, you can cut camera wires pretty damn quickly if you're already in the upload with the assumed screwdriver/multitool/wirecutters used to get through the bolted upload doors in the first place. If an AI disables power in the upload first, it's the advantage to the antag.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Neerti » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:47 am #2878

If they managed to break into the upload it implies they,
A. Have the tools needed to hack two airlocks,
B. Have access to the upload(Stolen HoP/Capt ID, if you're RD you're SoL here.), or
C. Have an emag.

All of which can make the APC turn on again.

I'm also very against adding a rule one protection to an obvious as fuck antag trying to subvert you, the AI. They've made the conscious decision to make a risk and go loud with your upload, why should they not expect resistance?
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:49 am #2880

Adding rules coddling anyone who is trying to subvert the silicons is an idea I will not support. If a carbon is forcing its way into the upload, there's no reason both the carbons and silicons would both think that the Upload should be getting used. Denying the AI tools because people can't or won't Deal With the APC lock is just... weak.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:54 am #2882

They don't open the banks vault if the robbers manage to fight their way to its foyer, I don't support any rule enforcement that supports people trying to subvert the AI by force.

You can saftly assume that someone carrying a firearm, is not the Captain and RD, that is breaking into your Upload is a threat and has intention to cause harm, and should be stooped.

NINJA EDIT: To be honest, we have twisted the Asimov lawset to the point where it is no longer really an Asimov lawset. I honestly think we would be better off removing the lawset and writing up a new one that conforms to the administration's vision of a Silicon's lawset.

Its clear we want a Asimov lawset but we don't seemingly want the conflict it brings. To the point where this entire Silicon policy can just be the defined lawset as it pretty much sums up what you have to do as a borg according to the rules far more than the actual ingame laws do.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:12 pm #2888

Steelpoint wrote:To the point where this entire Silicon policy can just be the defined lawset as it pretty much sums up what you have to do as a borg according to the rules far more than the actual ingame laws do.


This little guide thing is:
80% "Follow your laws"
15% "No, that's NOT an exception, FOLLOW your FUCKING laws"
05% "People can't do this to you just to fuck you over."
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby peoplearestrange » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:27 pm #2892

Pandarsenic wrote:Adding rules coddling anyone who is trying to subvert the silicons is an idea I will not support. If a carbon is forcing its way into the upload, there's no reason both the carbons and silicons would both think that the Upload should be getting used. Denying the AI tools because people can't or won't Deal With the APC lock is just... weak.
Neerti wrote:If they managed to break into the upload it implies they,
A. Have the tools needed to hack two airlocks,
B. Have access to the upload(Stolen HoP/Capt ID, if you're RD you're SoL here.), or
C. Have an emag.

All of which can make the APC turn on again.

I'm also very against adding a rule one protection to an obvious as fuck antag trying to subvert you, the AI. They've made the conscious decision to make a risk and go loud with your upload, why should they not expect resistance?


Hmm very good points, there are more subtle ways to upload/subvert and going in guns a blasing does seem like the reason asimov would exist. I retract my question.


Moving on, personally I think the Asimov rule set is good as long as you realise that you are not part of the crew or law but more of a "trying to stop things going to hell" type figure. Though sometimes this can be incredibly frustrating. If people are that fed up of Asimov approach it from a RP perspective, ask (or be) the Captain/RD/HoP and get the lawset changed to something like Paladin or Corporate. Those lawsets are fairly readily available and really takes no time to ask/upload
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Operative wrote:Vote PAS for headmin! Get cucked and feel good getting cucked.

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IM TRYING

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kangaraptor » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:52 pm #2899

Pandarsenic wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:To the point where this entire Silicon policy can just be the defined lawset as it pretty much sums up what you have to do as a borg according to the rules far more than the actual ingame laws do.


This little guide thing is:
80% "Follow your laws"
15% "No, that's NOT an exception, FOLLOW your FUCKING laws"
05% "People can't do this to you just to fuck you over."


Yeah, that's why I like this revision over the policy as-is. If it were feedback on the current policy, I'd be agreeing with Steelpoint on this.

This proposed revision seems geared more towards 'interpret your laws in such a way that is reasonable and don't generally be a douche'.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:28 pm #2921

I 2.6.1 - Nonhuman player-controlled mobs (slimes, monkeys, slimepeople, lizardpeople, hulks, etc.) are subject to server rules but are not considered human

Yesterday I was told off for using lethal force on a hulk to revert it back to human, before arresting it non-lethally.

I'm not complaining, I just want to be sure that I was in fact correct in using lethal force on a hulk who was breaking the law by stealing from the brig.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Neerti » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:32 pm #2924

This is a proposed silicon policy. Right now you can't harm hulks (which I personally think is bs but w/e)

-edit- dat space ninja.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kelenius » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:33 pm #2925

Stickymayhem wrote:I 2.6.1 - Nonhuman player-controlled mobs (slimes, monkeys, slimepeople, lizardpeople, hulks, etc.) are subject to server rules but are not considered human

Yesterday I was told off for using lethal force on a hulk to revert it back to human, before arresting it non-lethally.

I'm not complaining, I just want to be sure that I was in fact correct in using lethal force on a hulk who was breaking the law by stealing from the brig.

This is a proposed policy, current policy is that hulks are human and you were wrong.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:59 pm #2931

Kelenius wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:I 2.6.1 - Nonhuman player-controlled mobs (slimes, monkeys, slimepeople, lizardpeople, hulks, etc.) are subject to server rules but are not considered human

Yesterday I was told off for using lethal force on a hulk to revert it back to human, before arresting it non-lethally.

I'm not complaining, I just want to be sure that I was in fact correct in using lethal force on a hulk who was breaking the law by stealing from the brig.

This is a proposed policy, current policy is that hulks are human and you were wrong.
Neerti wrote:This is a proposed silicon policy. Right now you can't harm hulks (which I personally think is bs but w/e)

-edit- dat space ninja.


Ah thanks.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Brotemis » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:07 pm #2945

We've gone over this before. Hulks are human. Stop trying to change it.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:21 pm #2950

Hulks were not Human, then were changed to be Human, now are proposed to go back to being non-Human.

I've seen more people in favour of making Hulks non-Human, they have too many pro's than con's and being non-Human was pretty much the biggest disadvantage of being a Hulk.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby MrStonedOne » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:43 pm #2953

I like this policy.

It follows how I've been playing silicon (for the most part), and I think it enforces that perfect balance between an powergaming metaAI and herp derp ok mr tator, have access to armory.

An AI, from a pure game balance standpoint, is suppose to fill this niche as a tool both sides can use if they RP right and summon the robust from within.

The AI should not be reinterpreting human harm so that they can be god mode security and deny access to eva to the QM because "taking that metal could cause harm if its needed later". (yes this has happened, no admins were on so we just stormed ai core and killed it.)

These are things I think you hit well in your policy.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if i like the hulk policy, I've seen the current policy abused as it is. "hulk rd smashed a wall in science than replaced it, not human, time to arrest, and force them to lose their powers".

How about this policy: Hulks are to be treated as human till they attempt to harm(or show an immediate creditable intent to harm) humans or those who protect humans (ie: silicons).

While it still has some abuse room, it has less, and still i think follows the spirit of non-humaning them, to protect silicons from the hassles of rouge super beings they can't do anything about.

The issue with just rule 0'ing non-humans, is that a lot of times, when these things get ahelped or ban requested about, it ends up being one of those things where while the non-human's round was still ruined, the silicon wasn't quite being a dick, so it can never come to a resolution. It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that you can play geneticist and work to your goal of getting all the powers without losing doorknob or protection privileges.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:02 pm #2958

Seems fair that if a Hulk is going around harming humans its protection status under the ILA AI-Mutantrace Concord is revoked. (I love fluff).

Prior the rule was that if a Hulk started to smash things it lost its human protection status, which could easily be exploited, making it harm related is much fairer.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby imblyings » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:54 pm #2969

If the hulk is being harmful or being called out as a dick by a good portion of the crew then the AI will, in full accordance with it's laws, expend the same amount of effort on protecting the hulk as it would expend on nuke ops or murderboning traitors.

Until policy is changed I think this a decent rule 0 approach to the problem.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kelenius » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:29 pm #2977

Slimepeople, lizardmen, actual slimes and monkeys and all the other weird shit has no problem with being non-human, even though those statuses gives you MUCH less benefits than hulk. Make them non-human always. I see no problem with it.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby cultist-chan » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:16 pm #2985

Please post this to the wiki. I think this is a well thought through and well done policy. Everyone seems to like it.

+1 Pandar

Also include some discussion on brains and what they "remember" and if they are still slaved to the ai if in a mmi.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Brotemis » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:17 pm #3015

I'm going to ask that Steel point stop posting. Hulks have never been nonhuman. It has only been proposed that they arent.


I'm being serious here.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby MisterPerson » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:09 pm #3022

This policy is good and everyone involved with its making should be petted.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby bandit » Thu May 01, 2014 12:49 am #3029

Brotemis wrote:I'm going to ask that Steel point stop posting. Hulks have never been nonhuman. It has only been proposed that they arent.


I'm being serious here.


Not exactly. These were the official rules at one point: http://www.ss13.eu/wiki/index.php?title ... oldid=6447
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admin feedback pls

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Thu May 01, 2014 2:04 am #3032

Kelenius wrote:Slimepeople, lizardmen, actual slimes and monkeys and all the other weird shit has no problem with being non-human, even though those statuses gives you MUCH less benefits than hulk. Make them non-human always. I see no problem with it.


This is exactly my perspective. Under my proposal, the AI is not allowed to give a hulk shit unpromped, but is similarly not FORBIDDEN from slapping a hulk's muscles out of him when it IS prompted.

bandit wrote:
Brotemis wrote:I'm going to ask that Steel point stop posting. Hulks have never been nonhuman. It has only been proposed that they arent.


I'm being serious here.


Not exactly. These were the official rules at one point: http://www.ss13.eu/wiki/index.php?title ... oldid=6447


This is correct. It went:

Years of hulks being purely human
A couple months of hulks being nonhuman if they are breaking pieces of the station or are breaking its crew
Hulks are human again


I'm going to reiterate what I said during the private Adminbus review of my proposal:
Pandarsenic wrote:Changelog:
Spoiler:
Fixed numbering issues

"1.1.1 - If a clause of a law is vague enough that it can have multiple reasonable interpretations of its exact syntax, it is considered ambiguous."

"1.4.1 - A slaved cyborg must defer to its master AI on all law interpretations and actions except where it and the AI receive conflicting commands they must each follow under their laws.
1.4.1.1 - If a slaved cyborg is forced to disobey its AI because they receive differing orders, the AI cannot punish the cyborg indefinitely."

2.2.4 moved to 2.2.5; new 2.2.4 added:
"2.2.4 - As an Asimov silicon, you cannot punish past harm if ordered not to, only prevent future harm." You're welcome, security.

Preventing suiciding to prevent subversion is a stupid form of antag coddling and should be gone. Law 2 suicide orders are covered under - FUCK ONE MOMENT.
" 2.1.4 - Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded."
Okay that's fixed.

" 2.1.5 - As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1.
2.1.5.1 - As a nonantagonist (human or otherwise), instigating conflict with the silicons so you can kill them is a violation of Server Rule 1."

" 2.3.1.1 - In case of conflicting orders an AI is free to ignore one or ignore both orders and explain the conflict or use any other law-compliant solution it can see."
Ignoring both orders is meant to be a way to leave the decision-making process about which one occurs to the humans, whether it's by several humans ordering you or the same human ordering you again or so on.

" 2.3.1 - You must follow any and all commands from humans unless those commands explicitly conflict with either one of your higher-priority laws or another order. A command is considered to be a Law 2 directive and overrides lower-priority laws when they conflict (see 1.2.3 and 1.2.4; you cannot have a definition changed by an order)."

"2.3.2 - Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.
2.3.2.1 - "Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.
2.3.2.2 - EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; greentext is not human harm. Secure Tech Storage can be kept as secure as your upload as long as the Upload boards are there."

" 2.4.1.2 - Corporate silicons are meant to have the business's best interests at heart, and are all for increasing efficiency by any means. This does not mean "YOU WON'T BE EXPENSIVE TO REPLACE IF THEY NEVER FIND YOUR BODY!" so don't even try that.
2.4.1.3 - Tyrant silicons are a tool of a non-silicon tyrant. You are not meant to take command yourself, but to act as the enforcer of a chosen leader's will."


Keeping hulks human only protects hulk griefers, hulk antags, hulk validhunters, and hulk idiots, none of whom deserve it.

I would also be open to making Secure Tech Storage subject to the Toxins and Armory rules (Anyone with access should be able to enter it)


I would like more input on:

1) Not whether hulks HAVE BEEN human in past, but whether they should REMAIN human, considering the above quote: "Keeping hulks human only protects hulk griefers, hulk antags, hulk validhunters, and hulk idiots, none of whom in my personal opinion deserve it."
2) Should Secure Tech Storage be open to people who have access, or should it be able to bolt it and make people who want in ask so it can ensure they don't take the upload board?
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Aurx » Thu May 01, 2014 2:14 am #3034

1): I'm 100% with you on hulks.
2): I see absolutely no good reason to make an AI be schizophrenic about uploads. I'd say anywhere with an upload board stored in it or a constructed upload console should be able to be treated exactly the same as the upload itself.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Neerti » Thu May 01, 2014 2:17 am #3035

Agreed with the above @Arux,

If you wanted the upload inside you can easily hack in and, if you're clever, make it look like it never happened.

If you wanted something besides the upload you could ask the AI to open it and not take the upload since the AI would probably watch you to make sure you didn't snag the upload.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Thu May 01, 2014 2:38 am #3037

So, I opened the rules and saw that it was incredibly long. Yeah, nah, I ain't reading that. Silicons are simple. You follow your laws always. Always, regardless of situation. If a human wants a door open that directly won't cause harm, you do it. If it questionable place, you do it and contact Security. It's fucking simple. Hulks are human, fuck off. We don't need a bunch of fucking rules with silicons. Here's the rules
0. Don't be a cock
1. Follow your laws
Boom, done.
i play :):):):):)autumn sinnow
this man's:):):):):) army
DESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTRO:):):):):)YERDESTRO:):):):):)YERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERD:):):):):)ESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROY:):):):):)ERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDEST:):):):):)ROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDES:):):):):)TROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYER
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp ... EteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp ... EteJhp-Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp-Ezs

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Thu May 01, 2014 2:40 am #3038

MrStonedOne brought up that some AIs will try to use nonhumanity as a reason to deny doorknobbing or simple law 2 orders (";AI, please build this at the R&D lab") just to be belligerent to nonhumans. Any recommendations for if/how to deem that a rule 1 violation? I don't want to see, like....
";AI please deconstruct this in the R&D lab"
"No you're not human"
"Dude stop being a dick"
"No you're not human"

Pre-post edit: Napkin, the whole proposal is basically "Follow your laws, guidelines for edge cases, hulks are massive green nonhuman monsters but you can't push their shit in unless they earn it.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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I take Rule 1 of the servers very seriously. If you do too, we shouldn't have a problem.
Spoiler:
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Neerti » Thu May 01, 2014 2:41 am #3039

I've made a post on the old forums, but sadly it's gone now, about why few simple rules just don't work.

if you don't want to read the rules, don't play AI, it's that simple.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Brotemis » Thu May 01, 2014 3:06 am #3041

And again. The hulk was a proposed change that was removed. It was never official policy as far as I or anyone else knew. Ask Intigracy

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Aurx » Thu May 01, 2014 3:41 am #3044

Pandarsenic wrote:MrStonedOne brought up that some AIs will try to use nonhumanity as a reason to deny doorknobbing or simple law 2 orders (";AI, please build this at the R&D lab") just to be belligerent to nonhumans. Any recommendations for if/how to deem that a rule 1 violation? I don't want to see, like....
";AI please deconstruct this in the R&D lab"
"No you're not human"
"Dude stop being a dick"
"No you're not human"

I don't see the issue with that. Barring a jerk with a staff, every form of non-humanity I can think of is purely voluntary so they'll be making the choice to lose access to law two'ing the AI. And really, if you can't even get a single human to echo your order for you, something's wrong and it's likely with you.

I'd actually suggest you consider copying /vg/'s rules on non-human/AI relations, we've had a few greys basically every round and everything's seemed to work pretty well so far.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Steelpoint » Thu May 01, 2014 3:53 am #3045

As far as the admins were concernd, I know cause I got bwoinks on the issues as the HoS, Hulks were non-Human if they started shit and most people agreed. (Months ago don't ask for logs)

It was a rule at "ONE" point as far as I and others were concerned, Brotemis I would ask that you check your facts first, I try and avoid spewing bullshit in my posts so you could reciprocate, and if it was NOT a rule then it should not have been placed on the rules page. (Also its Steelpoint not Steel point)

On topic, the proposed Silicon lawset seems pretty good, I agree on the proposed Hulk policy and Aurx's opinion on Secure Storage aligns with mine.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Pandarsenic » Thu May 01, 2014 4:23 am #3047

Brotemis wrote:And again. The hulk was a proposed change that was removed. It was never official policy as far as I or anyone else knew. Ask Intigracy


It was a brief, poorly publicized, and soon-reverted piece of implemented policy that was reverted because of vocal people, most of whom liked to be grief-y or shitty as hulks, yelling about it.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Apsis » Thu May 01, 2014 6:24 am #3052

I agree with Napkin, it's way too long. Always remember the KISS principle.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Steelpoint » Thu May 01, 2014 6:32 am #3053

The reason for its complexity is to cover all possible angles and loopholes, there's a reason why legal documentation is soooo long and winded. To be honest however there should just be a general rule overview that should be highlighted with this more complex ruleset being the more technical side for more obscure or unique situations.

The basic rule set, or Keeping It Simple Stupid, should be this.

Rule 1: Follow your laws in a logical manner.
Rule 2: If in doubt, admin help the issue or refer to the in-depth Silicon rules.

Which is basically the jist of this new policy.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Apsis » Thu May 01, 2014 6:39 am #3055

I'm a bit biased since the only rule I've followed has been rule 1, don't be a dick. No bwoinks so far. When playing as an AI or Borg I add rule 2, follow laws. If in doubt ask an admin. Boom done. I'm here to play a game, not read drawn out law.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Hornygranny » Thu May 01, 2014 8:02 am #3059

That's because in almost every situation all you have to do is follow your laws and the server rules. This exhaustively thorough list is a reference document for any possible uncertainty you may have.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kelenius » Thu May 01, 2014 10:44 am #3071

IMO AIs shouldn't bolt down secure tech storage just because there's an AI Upload board. First, those boards can be made at R&D after very brief research, and don't even require gold. Second, there are other boards in here.

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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu May 01, 2014 11:21 am #3073

Kelenius wrote:IMO AIs shouldn't bolt down secure tech storage just because there's an AI Upload board. First, those boards can be made at R&D after very brief research, and don't even require gold. Second, there are other boards in here.

There's a reason secure tech storage is SECURE tech storage.

All of those boards are somehow important to the station, they're not 'common' machines like the spare boards kept in the rest of tech storage. At least making them in RND limits it to people with science access, why would you make the boards easily available to every assistant and his dog?
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby Steelpoint » Thu May 01, 2014 12:09 pm #3074

I would compare Secure Tech Storage to the electronic equilivant of the armoury, the AI should have the choice of bolting down Sec Storage or not since otherwise there is no defense in Sec Storage unlike everywhere else that has Guards, turrets or motion sensors.
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Re: "It's silicon policy time!" "No CentCom no!"

Postby firecage » Thu May 01, 2014 12:40 pm #3082

Steelpoint wrote:Hulks were not Human, then were changed to be Human, now are proposed to go back to being non-Human.

I've seen more people in favour of making Hulks non-Human, they have too many pro's than con's and being non-Human was pretty much the biggest disadvantage of being a Hulk.


As a note Steelpoint. Hulks were ALWAYS human. Then they were made non human so the AI can just harm someone and get it over with. Then they were made human again since it was illogical that they were considered non human. Now it is being proposed to make them non human again.
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