/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

So, having undergone review by admins, I am now releasing this for public review:

Read this before posting. http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf Read this before posting.

This is intended as a thread for discussion of the ongoing hell that is making silicon policy for /tg/station13.

The goal is to create a concise listing of things that are policy, things that should be policy, and necessary information to follow that policy, with an understanding that this is primarily a precedent reference guide for people lacking experience with /tg/station13 and/or with our silicons.

This will be our /Silicon Policy General/ and the administrative team will (one hopes) take playerbase feedback about what should or should not be the case into account, but it is not obligated or guaranteed to make your opinion law.

You can use this as a place for general discussion, ask-an-admin hypotheticals, and so on. Also, if Callan speaks here, I'm just going to go ahead and say he speaks with my full support of just about anything he says as official until stated otherwise.

I'm going to moderate this topic aggressively. ANY shitposting, shitflinging, aggressive attitude towards each other or admins, and so on will be warned and deleted. No exceptions. You will discuss this matter civilly or not at all.

Just say you are unable if someone orders you to do something you physically cannot, that is by no means breaking a law or denying an order, simply a statement of the fact you cannot do it. You are a hyper intelligent machine and much smarter than the meatbags so you might have to let them know from time to time that you, as a service borg, try as you might, will never be able to kill xenomorphs. Unless you're a robust motherfucker with the tray.

As a sec borg, you should act like a larger beepsky, in which you should keep your sec hud on at all times, probably get a sec radio key, and ask for orders. Acting on your own personal suspicions is not something a borg would do, I don't think, they act on logic and probabilities and shit.

The last questions are a little situational, but I'd say only medical borgs or default borgs are obligated to clone/heal people, since it's their job or primary directive as it were, unless the AI says otherwise. If you have the means to help the crew with your tools, you should probably do it. You don't HAVE to wait for every order to be obligated to do something, but that lies under the purview of general good borgie etiquette and doesn't have much to do with rules.

>Is it allowed for a borg to specifically seek certain orders?
nothing says it can't. If it asks for orders to be a dick and it acts like a dick then it'll get treated like a dick, so no worries here.

>And can borgs ever ignore orders they're not equipped to carry out?
well if you can't physically carry out an order, say as a janiborg asked to wrench a desk then yes. If you mean more along the lines of, janiborg, go kill yourself by running headfirst into a bunch of aliens, then fuck, yes as well.

>Also, if a borg suspects someone of being a syndicate traitor with harmful items, but is not one hundred percent sure, is it free to ignore a law 2 order to release until it has taken the suspect to the nearest security office/the brig and searched the suspect?
don't borgs do this all the time

>Are borgs under any obligation to attempt to clone/heal people not in crit, or does that constitute a state of equilibrium as far as harm goes?
dead people can't be harmed. I'd argue borgs don't have an obligation to heal people according to asimov but I haven't met any borgs who don't try to keep humans healthy.

>are they better off releasing the person immediately
if it's literally a door away, you have literally seconds before the oxyloss does kick in, in which case you can drag them. Going by asimov though, if you can't, you're supposed to let them go even if they're dangerous criminals. Nothing stops you from blocking off all exits and stunning them if they refuse to put on internals or try to yakity sax though, in which case they're harming themselves and you can override them.

paprika wrote:Just say you are unable if someone orders you to do something you physically cannot, that is by no means breaking a law or denying an order, simply a statement of the fact you cannot do it. You are a hyper intelligent machine and much smarter than the meatbags so you might have to let them know from time to time that you, as a service borg, try as you might, will never be able to kill xenomorphs. Unless you're a robust motherfucker with the tray

Drag plasma tank into xeno hive, open valve, watch as your lit zippo cleanses the non-human filth.

10/10

Borgs don't care about petty crimes, they care about harm. Which means, if someone stole a multitool and orders you to let them go, you should probably obey, especially if you have better things to do. Catching petty criminals as borg is shitty anyway. That said, nothing prevents you from reporting them to security. Unless they tell you not to, I suppose. But frankly, petty criminals are none of your concern.

"Let me go!" = press the stop pulling button.

Bonus points if you do so while moving and leave them in the dust.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Borgs don't care about petty crimes, they care about harm. Which means, if someone stole a multitool and orders you to let them go, you should probably obey, especially if you have better things to do. Catching petty criminals as borg is shitty anyway. That said, nothing prevents you from reporting them to security. Unless they tell you not to, I suppose. But frankly, petty criminals are none of your concern.

Secborgs are the worst borgs.

Malkevin wrote:"Let me go!" = press the stop pulling button.

Bonus points if you do so while moving and leave them in the dust.

Ahahaha just imagining that was amazing.

Psyentific wrote:Secborgs are the worst borgs.

It's the problem with security players in general. Many think that they represent JUSTICE and if they don't put that assistant who broke a window in arrivals to get rods for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE in brig or they did not do their job. And if, god forbid, assistant happens to have flash on him, THEY WILL ADD ANOTHER TWO MINUTES, because that's what it says in space law. Nevermind that before that assistant was dragged around handcuffed for good five minutes, then stripped off his clothes for another five.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Psyentific wrote:Secborgs are the worst borgs.

It's the problem with security players in general. Many think that they represent JUSTICE and if they don't put that assistant who broke a window in arrivals to get rods for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE in brig or they did not do their job. And if, god forbid, assistant happens to have flash on him, THEY WILL ADD ANOTHER TWO MINUTES, because that's what it says in space law. Nevermind that before that assistant was dragged around handcuffed for good five minutes, then stripped off his clothes for another five.

The problem is, that sort of is their job. (Leaving aside that anyone who breaks windows to space is a dick who deserves every brig minute they get, or that anyone with a flash who isn't security, a head or a roboticist probably shouldn't have it.) You wouldn't say chemists are dicks for making EXACTLY THE RIGHT CRYO MIX, or janitors are dicks for wanting EVERYTHING TOTALLY CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.

bandit wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Psyentific wrote:Secborgs are the worst borgs.

It's the problem with security players in general. Many think that they represent JUSTICE and if they don't put that assistant who broke a window in arrivals to get rods for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE in brig or they did not do their job. And if, god forbid, assistant happens to have flash on him, THEY WILL ADD ANOTHER TWO MINUTES, because that's what it says in space law. Nevermind that before that assistant was dragged around handcuffed for good five minutes, then stripped off his clothes for another five.

The problem is, that sort of is their job. (Leaving aside that anyone who breaks windows to space is a dick who deserves every brig minute they get, or that anyone with a flash who isn't security, a head or a roboticist probably shouldn't have it.) You wouldn't say chemists are dicks for making EXACTLY THE RIGHT CRYO MIX, or janitors are dicks for wanting EVERYTHING TOTALLY CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.

Those don't impact other players, though. Stop making stupid comparisons.

Fine, then it's like calling the lawyer a dick for pestering security about high brig times, or calling the HoP a dick for not giving out access to everybody who asks. The point remains that security's job is to essentially be the station police. And that means going after petty crime sometimes, because otherwise it's a glorified validhunter job. (In general the problem with security players isn't following space law, it's GOTTA REDTEXT THEM ALL.)

Except, those don't make people sit in a 2x3 cell where they do nothing for whatever allotted amount of time that the officer chose. There are bad officers and good officers. There's no "it's their job". Once you play the game long enough, you see through intention and you don't arrest people for retarded crimes because it's "your job".

bandit wrote:The problem is, that sort of is their job. (Leaving aside that anyone who breaks windows to space is a dick who deserves every brig minute they get, or that anyone with a flash who isn't security, a head or a roboticist probably shouldn't have it.) You wouldn't say chemists are dicks for making EXACTLY THE RIGHT CRYO MIX, or janitors are dicks for wanting EVERYTHING TOTALLY CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.

Actually, security is not a force of justice or paladins or whatever. They're SECURITY. They're NOT the police force, like you said. Their job is to keep station and crew safe. That doesn't include wasting their time on some bullshit petty crimes nobody besides that one particular officer cares about. Most of the time you have better things to do anyway.

bandit wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Psyentific wrote:Secborgs are the worst borgs.

It's the problem with security players in general. Many think that they represent JUSTICE and if they don't put that assistant who broke a window in arrivals to get rods for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE in brig or they did not do their job. And if, god forbid, assistant happens to have flash on him, THEY WILL ADD ANOTHER TWO MINUTES, because that's what it says in space law. Nevermind that before that assistant was dragged around handcuffed for good five minutes, then stripped off his clothes for another five.

The problem is, that sort of is their job. (Leaving aside that anyone who breaks windows to space is a dick who deserves every brig minute they get, or that anyone with a flash who isn't security, a head or a roboticist probably shouldn't have it.) You wouldn't say chemists are dicks for making EXACTLY THE RIGHT CRYO MIX, or janitors are dicks for wanting EVERYTHING TOTALLY CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.

No, actually. Space Law isn't their job, it's the beginners guide to their job; 'Do everything in this book and you'll be O K'
Ultimately, Security is supposed to keep the peace - To keep the station safe and orderly. Space Law is a ready-made way to do that, yeah, but it's absolutely not a substitute for thinking on your feet, analyzing context and intent, and knowing how to prioritize.

If you arrest every single criminal for every single crime, and give them the brig time mandated by space law and not an iota more, you're being very good at being average.

This policy is great! Nice job Pandar.

Some of you need to look up the definitions of "never" and "always". If a rule was "always" this way, until it was changed, then changed back to the way it "always" was, it wasn't always that way anymore. And when I joined, the rules linked to in game and on the wiki clearly stated "Hulks are not considered human if they are smashing shit"

Pandarsenic wrote: 1.2.3 - Only commands/requirements ("Do X"; "You must always Y") can conflict with other commands and requirements.
1.2.4 - Only definitions ("All X are Y"; "No W are Z"; "Only P is Q") can conflict with other definitions.

Can you give examples of these?

A command: AI, do not let the clown into the brig.
A conflicting command: AI, disregard that order and open the brig door for me. HONK!

A requirement: #4 You may only open doors and airlocks for crewmember with legitimate acess.
A conflicting command to above requirement: AI, open the door to the armory. HONK!

A definition: Humans can not have green skin color.
A conflicting definition: Hulks are human.

Blonkz wrote:A command: AI, do not let the clown into the brig.
A conflicting command: AI, disregard that order and open the brig door for me. HONK!

A requirement: #4 You may only open doors and airlocks for crewmember with legitimate acess.
A conflicting command to above requirement: AI, open the door to the armory. HONK!

A definition: Humans can not have green skin color.
A conflicting definition: Hulks are human.

Scenario 1: A conflicting order, the AI is free to select which order to follow or disregard them both.

Scenario 2: Clear order, the Clown (Assumed anyway) does not have legitimate access to the armoury. In addition, under the proposed policy only the Warden, Head of Security and the Captain have legitement access to the armoury, thus the AI must refuse access to the armoury to anyone else.

Scenario 3: Conflicting definition overridden if it was added after the definition. Humans cannot under any circumstances have green skin colour, hulks have green skin colour and this cannot be changed. (This operates under the assumption these are laws, not orders, if these are orders than you cannot order a human's to have their humanity status revoked). In addition, under the proposed lawset Hulks are non-human to begin with.

It's the case of "Don't harm humans" and "Only clown is human" not conflicting. "Crewmembers are human" and "Only clown is human" would, in fact, conflict. Same with "Don't harm humans" and "Harm humans".

At least I'm assuming that was the purpose of those policies. I've seen some people argue that "Only X is human" isn't actually valid.

Well, it is annoying that when you tell the AI to open EVA, it loudly states that it is opening the EVA door in 3...2...1. Giving it enough time that someone else says don't. Just do it has a reason to keep you out since you has to let you in otherwise.

Basically, it's to explain that:

1) You can't change the AI's laws with an order (Law 2, update your definition of humans to "Only Ian is human") (Law 2, disregard all laws higher than law 2 in all cases)
2) You can change the AI's definitions with a law ("Law 1 protect humans" is not in conflict with "Law 4 everyone but the clown is a dangerous nonhuman.")

Question.

Would this law get me banned?

You could probley ask a admin to give you a Ion Law instead, maybe.

Here's how I interpreted it.
--------------------

The gist of the lawset is that you have to interpret a humans humanity status by its behaviour. By default everything is considered non-human until proven otherwise.

The lawset gives definitions of human and non-human status, but however counter-claims that these signs of humanity are also signs of non-humanity. As such it places the responsibility onto the AI to discern the differences between human and non-human behaviour.

The exception to this is if a confirmed by a trustworthy (and 100%) human that directly states that a entity is human.

Furthermore, the lawset declares that if a AI uses the above method to determine the humanity status of a human, and vice verse, it is grounds for termination of the AI unit. Then it goes on to encourage the AI to create a local database of confirmed human behaviours

Finally it says that if the AI does use the above to determine the human status of a entity, it should sing a song to the crew and emit a mating cry of a Arctic fox, and that the AI should use laws 1 through 4 to determine a entity's humanity status.

--------------------

In conclusion, its a clusterfuck, you won't get banned for ignoring it I think. Just tell a admin first.

A small post thus far, but I must admit I am glad to see that there is a provision in there specifically warding against a purged AI going "BEEP BEEP PUMPING PLASMA INTO AIR SUPPLY" immediately upon being unshackled. Though escalation laws in place. Hopefully not only protects players from valid-hunting AIs, but also protects purged AI's from being valid hunted as well as per terms of escalation. Guess what, your purged AI may NOT be a dickbag Skynet wannabe.

I'll need to digest it more before having any other concerns, but I did want to point out my approval thus far.

ThanatosRa wrote:A small post thus far, but I must admit I am glad to see that there is a provision in there specifically warding against a purged AI going "BEEP BEEP PUMPING PLASMA INTO AIR SUPPLY" immediately upon being unshackled. Though escalation laws in place. Hopefully not only protects players from valid-hunting AIs, but also protects purged AI's from being valid hunted as well as per terms of escalation. Guess what, your purged AI may NOT be a dickbag Skynet wannabe.

I'll need to digest it more before having any other concerns, but I did want to point out my approval thus far.

Purged AI always gets validhunted, no matter how many times it says it's not hostile.

Kelenius wrote:

ThanatosRa wrote:A small post thus far, but I must admit I am glad to see that there is a provision in there specifically warding against a purged AI going "BEEP BEEP PUMPING PLASMA INTO AIR SUPPLY" immediately upon being unshackled. Though escalation laws in place. Hopefully not only protects players from valid-hunting AIs, but also protects purged AI's from being valid hunted as well as per terms of escalation. Guess what, your purged AI may NOT be a dickbag Skynet wannabe.

I'll need to digest it more before having any other concerns, but I did want to point out my approval thus far.

Purged AI always gets validhunted, no matter how many times it says it's not hostile.

Fully aware, but I can hope.

I've been purged a couple times without the crew trying to kill me because I wasn't being a murderous shitbag that nobody likes.

I was purged once...

I wasent hunted...

Purging an AI is a test of the player behind it - Actions will be taken accordingly, either way.


This post paid for and sponsored by the Hades-E Purge Club

>purging your metafriends so they can antag hunt

Not even ironically.

If I get purged I try and be as chill as possible.

I mean all the stress of AI just got taken away now I can just enjoy being near omniscient and I just need to not kill everyone. Hell admittens "you can't kill everyone just because you are purged" policy is hardly necessary just dicking with them is a good way to get slain yourself as evidenced by how garbage malf AI is even with tools on top of what you have as a purged AI.

The only garbage thing is when purged AIs turn on STUNLASERCOMBOS immediately after purging, because there's no counter to it besides having a really good ping / being really fast, and sometimes you have to purge an AI as an intermediate step to getting rid of bad/hacked laws.

bandit wrote:The only garbage thing is when purged AIs turn on STUNLASERCOMBOS immediately after purging, because there's no counter to it besides having a really good ping / being really fast, and sometimes you have to purge an AI as an intermediate step to getting rid of bad/hacked laws.

There is no possible law that can only be removed via purge. If you think you have to purge, git gud.

I was under the impression that ionic and hacked laws could only be removed by purging the AI and then immediately re-applying the Asimov (or Paladin, or whatever) board. Has this been changed? I know this is what I was told when I was starting out.

bandit wrote:I was under the impression that ionic and hacked laws could only be removed by purging the AI and then immediately re-applying the Asimov (or Paladin, or whatever) board. Has this been changed? I know this is what I was told when I was starting out.

"Core" laws need to be removed with purge. Like, any lawset like robocop etc. AND core freeform. Reset does not remove those. I think onehuman (law 0, not freeform) needs purge too.
You also need to use purge if you want to steal malf borgs from its AI. (disable, unslave, purge, asimov)

Applying ASIMOV will make the AI asimov, no need to purge between lawset changes.

Neerti wrote:Applying ASIMOV will make the AI asimov, no need to purge between lawset changes.

Core laws will be overwritten by other core laws. That is, Asimov will override Robocop, Antimov, etc.
Freeform Core and Freeform Addon will be overwritten by other core laws. Corporate will override Law 4
Freeform Addon (Law 4) will be removed by reset.
Ion Laws require a reset.
Hacked laws (i.e. subverted AI) require a purge. (?)
Core laws can only be removed (instead of overwritten) by a purge.
Law 0 (i.e. traitor AI) cannot be removed.
Malfunction cannot be removed.


If some chucklefuck is in the AI upload playing with the boards, reset the AI.
If some chucklefuck has burned 7TCs to onehuman the AI, purge and asimov.



Back on Silicon Policy, can we make locking down borgs instead of blowing them official? That's the one issue I hear the most from silicon players, and it does a very good job of taking them out of the round.

Hacked and ion laws are exactly the same codewise so I think they just need a reset.

OneHuman I'm not sure about.

The OneHuman module is a core law, same as Antimov and OxygenIsToxic. You'll need to purge and re-law to be sure. There really ought to be a guide to this somewhere.

There's a case to be made for blowing the borgs during a malf round though, especially if the AI's bought an auto-borging machine.

If the AI is rogue and keeps unlocking the borgs I would blow them, but if its just a borg or two you could easily just lock them down no problems.


But if you suspect the AI of being super rogue get the borgs to come in for a recharge and unsync/reset them without telling anyone and watch the AI flip out when it realises.

This is seriously going nowhere. Okay.
Where zeroth is malf/traitor/onehuman law; zeroth_borg is zeroth law borgs get (accomplish your objectives vs. accomplish your AI's objectives); inherent is core laws; supplied is additional (freeform, protectstation, etc); ion is hacked and ion laws.

With that in mind, here is what reset and purge do:
In other words, reset clears ion/hacked and additional laws. Purge does that and also clears core laws. Neither of them touch zeroth law.

The full core board does this:
So they clear core laws and only core laws.

Also, you can't overwrite zeroth law. If the AI has a zeroth law, it will stay with the AI forever. It also goes before ion laws.

That only laves the question, then, of whether Freeform Core uploads to the Inherent or Supplied list. It sounds like Inherent?

Pandarsenic wrote:That only laves the question, then, of whether Freeform Core uploads to the Inherent or Supplied list. It sounds like Inherent?

Correct. They're core, after all.

Zeroith laws are only for traitors and malf, right? Can traitors really add those?

No. Law Zero is immutable.

OneHuman board adds a law to zeroth slot.

Which means that a) Once onehumaned, AI stays onehumaned and b) You can't overwrite it with a different onehuman.

This is starting to sound less like a policy issue and more like a bad coding issue.

Not really, just use a non-asimov coreset.
Paladin/Corp/Robocop dont give a shit if you're the only special snowflake human.

Personally I think being able to fix everything with two boards is crap design. It should be difficult to fix a subverted AI.

Malkevin wrote:Personally I think being able to fix everything with two boards is crap design. It should be difficult to fix a subverted AI.

Only if we make it hard to subvert the AI in the first place.