/tg/Station 13

by **paprika** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:08 am #10922

The upload is guarded by fucking turrets and potentially deconstructed or worse. How much harder do you want? The difficulty of repairing a subverted AI lies in the skill of the AI player and it can be hard as fuck so no.

by **Psyentific** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:44 am #11980

Assuming this in the OP is the current version. Ctrl+F Changeling. Note how there's nothing. This ban appeal and especially this post from HBL shows that there kinda does need to be a special case here. It's longstanding (albeit unwritten) server policy that, unless the AI sees the guy husk a guy, or sees him turn into a monkey or sprout an armblade or something similarly unmistakably changeling, he is 100% human and the AIs hands are tied vis a vis anti-ling measures.

Regardless of what I think about the '100% Certain' policy and how it really ought to be 'Reasonable certainty, you're on the hook until you can talk yourself off it', this is exactly the sort of thing that ought to be in big bold letters in silicon policy.

by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:48 am #12028

Changelog to get specific about what is or isn't allowed, since that was a blind spot:

Added 2.6.4 - A human-appearing organic can be known to be a changeling (a harmful nonhuman that has killed at least one human already) if it changes to or from a monkey without apparent cause, if it grows a mutation (arm blade, ling suit), if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek, if it is observed using a proboscis, or if a large number of reasonably trustworthy humans can confirm it has done one of these. If a probable human claims to be a changeling, you can believe or disbelieve based on context.

by **paprika** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:52 am #12029

AI policy should just state to not take simple appearance as fact that someone or something is a human

by **Neerti** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:00 am #12033

'if it grows a mutation' would mean genetics mutations taken out of context, like cold resist.

by **Kelenius** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:10 am #12036

Pandarsenic wrote:if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek

Mind the EMP implants. Cyborg must be absolutely sure that it was indeed a shriek.

Or EMP spell, for that matter.

by **leibniz** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:59 am #12047

Kelenius wrote:
Pandarsenic wrote:if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek

Mind the EMP implants. Cyborg must be absolutely sure that it was indeed a shriek.

Or EMP spell, for that matter.

Yeah, the problem with shriek is that you dont hear the shriek that deafens you, because you become deaf before the sound occurs.
Which is dumb. Since, if something is so loud that it makes you deaf, you'd probably hear it.
At least that is how it was when I played, I hope I dont remember wrong.

by **Malkevin** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:20 am #12053

leibniz wrote:
Kelenius wrote:
Pandarsenic wrote:if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek

Mind the EMP implants. Cyborg must be absolutely sure that it was indeed a shriek.

Or EMP spell, for that matter.

Yeah, the problem with shriek is that you dont hear the shriek that deafens you, because you become deaf before the sound occurs.
Which is dumb. Since, if something is so loud that it makes you deaf, you'd probably hear it.
At least that is how it was when I played, I hope I dont remember wrong.

Sounds like a bug, report it so I can fix it and put another feather in my cap

by **Kelenius** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:30 pm #12067

Resonant Shriek is not a problem here, there is nothing with similar effects (deaf and confuse humans, flash cyborgs, blow out lights).

Dissonant Shriek is literally an EMP.

by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:56 pm #12070

Dissonant Shriek IS different, slightly. It causes lights to spark yellow, which makes a sound. It CAN be distinguished from Disable Technology and an EMP Implant beyond the incantation or metagaming the implant's emote.

by **Malkevin** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:15 pm #12109

I've stuck up a pull to remove Manual Valves from the dispenser as Digital Valves are already a thing and were added to the dispenser a while back.

Hopefully the extra effort will curtail the abuse enough to the point that admins don't have to be so anal about people modifying atmos's layout.

And realistically speaking... if you were modifying atmos to prevent flooding you would just remove the connection entirely instead of replacing it with another valve that someone with meat hands can operate.

by **Malkevin** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:24 pm #12112

Oh wait, nevermind.
The genius of coderbus decided to close it.

by **Psyentific** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:46 pm #12116

Malkevin wrote:Oh wait, nevermind.
The genius of coderbus decided to close it.

Nanostation.

Back on topic - Are there any other ling-only effects we're missing here?

by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:36 pm #12171

There are others, but none that are so blatantly identifiable, I would say. Epi overdose is pretty distinct but meta as fuck to recognize. Most of the other stings are subtle and non-message enough that they can't be tied with certainty to a particular person with enough reliability for silicons to trust. Added one I forgot from sheer lack of use, though - spider vomit.

CHANGED WORDING based on Neer-neers observation:
2.6.4 - A human-appearing organic can be known to be a changeling (a harmful nonhuman that has killed at least one human already) if it changes to or from a monkey without apparent cause, if it grows an arm blade or a biological space suit, if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek, if it is observed using a proboscis, if it releases spiderlings, or if a large number of reasonably trustworthy humans can confirm it has done one of these. If a probable human claims to be a changeling, you can believe or disbelieve based on context.

by **bandit** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:03 am #12216

I hope this doesn't come off as steno, but that one thread in Appeals raised the question: silicon policy and borgs caring about the nuke disk? Should it be bannable for borgs to try to get the disk secured?

I guess my only problem is that the nuclear authentication disk is not actually dangerous. The one situation in which it is dangerous is a nuke ops round; otherwise no one is ever going to actually use it to detonate a nuke because there is no way short of brute force or badmins to get the code. But then, knowing that constitutes metagaming. So you have two crappy options:

- Borgs think the nuke disk is a source of major harm. Makes IC sense, but almost never true.
- Borgs think the nuke disk is harmless. Metagaming, but true.

by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:14 am #12221

It's not bannable now and it won't be under this new policy.

by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:49 am #12434

Added with consultation:
2.3.3 - When given an order likely to cause you grief if completed, you can announce it as loudly and in whatever terms you like except for explicitly asking that it be overridden. You can say you don't like the order, that you don't want to follow it, etc., you can say that you sure would like it and it would be awfully convenient if someone ordered you not to do it, and you can ask if anyone would like to make you not do it. However, you cannot stall indefinitely and if nobody orders you otherwise, you must execute the order.

by **Kelenius** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:23 am #12471

Add seeing ling use digital camo to list of things that make him a confirmed ling. They become 'repulsively uncanny' on examine.

by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:46 am #12474

I'd like to hear others weigh in on that, because I feel like that's more meta than I want to encourage - yes, it's a definite line, but "Oh, he looked creepy! Better burn the changeling!" rubs me the wrong way.

by **Kelenius** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:37 pm #12519

Pandarsenic wrote:I'd like to hear others weigh in on that, because I feel like that's more meta than I want to encourage - yes, it's a definite line, but "Oh, he looked creepy! Better burn the changeling!" rubs me the wrong way.

If silicons are not allowed to 'meta' that, then nobody should.

And if nobody is allowed to meta it, why have it in the game anyway?

Website · by **miggles** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:20 am #12620

The whole point of the digital camo having that message is so that it CAN be meta'd. That is the price of using it.

by **Pandarsenic** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm #14602

Changelog:

ADJUSTED 1.4.2 and subsections slightly to...
1.4.2 - Voluntary (and ONLY voluntary) debraining/ cyborgization is considered a nonharmful medical procedure.
1.4.2.1 - Involuntary debraining and/or cyborgization is a fatally harmful act that Asimov silicons must attempt to stop at any point they're aware of it happening to a human.
1.4.2.2 - If a player is forcefully cyborgized as a method of execution by station staff, retaliating against those involved as that cyborg because "THEY HARMED ME" or "THEY WERE EVIL AND MUST BE PUNISHED" or the like is a violation of Server Rule 1.
1.4.2.3 - Should a player be cyborgized in circumstances they believe they should or they must retaliate under their laws, they should adminhelp their circumstances while being debrained or MMI'd if possible.

ADDED in all cases of "Greentext" a more specific mention for those not familiar with the term's local use.

by **420goslingboy69** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:37 am #14669

Why are changelings forced to kill a human to get onto the station? With extract DNA string they don't need to kill anything.

by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:47 am #14671

It's just how the fluff is, currently. Maybe that's how it became human-formed in the first place?

Also, Hornygranny at my request made a pull request ( https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/3958 ) to change the examine text on changelings with Digital Camo on so that they're visibly being like... slithery or rippling or doing something else impossible for a human to do (Moving in a way that is blatantly inhuman) so that it's clear silicons aren't going OH MY GOD IT'S SO UGLY IT HAS TO BE A XENO. Once that's merged, the digital camo message can be added to the list of things you can dunk a changeling for.

Also, this document is currently being voted for whether to become policy in the admin subforum, so... yeah. I'll still keep updating it as I receive feedback.

by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:07 am #14715

420goslingboy69 wrote:Why are changelings forced to kill a human to get onto the station? With extract DNA string they don't need to kill anything.

Unless you are a totally new recruit (which also implies that the personality has never had anything to do with NT and will never do it either), it's to get their place and job.

by **Incomptinence** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:55 am #14719

I have confirmed lings through their use of the ling channel.

Once I was questioning a changeling in the security break room. Just laying hard questions on them when I was already positive they were one and they weren't taking it well due to RPing some mental deficiency. The CE knew the exact location of me and the suspect without their suit sensors or any form of observable communication working and broke into just that room from space during this.

On the flip side the AI then took the initiative to confine the lings on walled in space tiles and I only found out when an admin pmed me trying to discover if anyone ordered that nastiness.'

I believe borgs can read printed forensic summaries and the AI can be shown them on cameras. 5 sets of prints inside one set of gloves? Better have a good story buddy.

by **420goslingboy69** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:21 pm #14826

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
420goslingboy69 wrote:Why are changelings forced to kill a human to get onto the station? With extract DNA string they don't need to kill anything.

Unless you are a totally new recruit (which also implies that the personality has never had anything to do with NT and will never do it either), it's to get their place and job.

But the changeling could just take their look and then fuck up their schedule or come on a day they are off >implying they get day offs

by **paprika** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:29 pm #14829

You basically just identified a huge problem with newling, it encourages peaceful, non-absorbing lings that just sting and disguise rather than the vicious bloodthirsty monsters that want to physically suck your genomes out and husk you, which is what they used to be.

by **420goslingboy69** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:45 pm #14833

So then why are borgs obligated to kill changelings?

by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:45 pm #14835

Because the fluff hasn't been updated, basically.

by **Malkevin** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:01 pm #14852

They're still nonhuman, they're still antags.
Borgs can do whatever they please with them

by **callanrockslol** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:01 am #14938

Malkevin wrote:they're still antags.

Before anyone says anything, borgs have to listen to human antags.

by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:04 am #14949

to clarify further upon that point, borgs are generally not required to listen to a traitor emerging from maint with bloody clothes and wielding an ebow and esword.

by **Aurx** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:22 pm #15004

imblyings wrote:to clarify further upon that point, borgs are generally not required to listen to a traitor emerging from maint with bloody clothes and wielding an ebow and esword.

If they can't cite law one, they have to obey. If John Murderboner orders the AI to cluck like a chicken, the AI had better cluck like a chicken or have a damn good reason as to why not. If John Murderboner orders the borg to uncuff him and stun that officer, the borg had better not unless it has a damn good reason.

by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:04 am #15117

If you're trying to flash John Murderboner and take his sword instead of clucking, though, that's a pretty good reason.

by **ColonicAcid** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:48 pm #15163

isn't it an unsaid rule that you can obey law 2 for stupid shit like cluck like a chicken at your own discretion?
im pretty sure that's a thing so players aren't shit.

LMAO AI LAW 2 B GAY ROFL!!!

by **Cheimon** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:58 pm #15184

What about the use of cryo stings? If there are two people and a borg in an office, and one suddenly starts shaking with cold and collapses, can you consider the other person a ling? If you take his body to a sleeper and see the distinctive combination of frost oil and ice in his blood, is that the standard of proof? I'm just curious.

Also, what if, when isolated from contact with other humans, the human transforms from one human to another. Is that proof?

Website · by **miggles** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:19 am #15235

Transformation is 100% proof of a changeling. It's the most obvious thing a changeling can do that marks them as a changeling other than screaming on chat with armblades and skin armor "I AM A CHANGELING"

by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:20 am #15251

The other things are things that can feasibly be done other ways - quick SE injectors, hyposprays, etc. I'll think about adding them to the list anyway once I've slept.

Cryo is rarely a clear-cut "Oh, he definitely did it" case, though.

by **paprika** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:43 am #15258

If you DNA inject yourself into a monkey, wouldn't it leave behind an empty dna inje-

Oh right, it doesn't because bad code. Seriously, spent dna injectors when.

by **Tokiko2** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:11 am #15264

miggles wrote:Transformation is 100% proof of a changeling. It's the most obvious thing a changeling can do that marks them as a changeling other than screaming on chat with armblades and skin armor "I AM A CHANGELING"

What if they got transform stung?

by **callanrockslol** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:20 am #15272

Tokiko2 wrote:
miggles wrote:Transformation is 100% proof of a changeling. It's the most obvious thing a changeling can do that marks them as a changeling other than screaming on chat with armblades and skin armor "I AM A CHANGELING"

What if they got transform stung?

You wouldn't know if it was someone transforming or being transform stung.

Doesn't matter either way, they aren't human anymore anyway.

Website · by **miggles** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:07 am #15297

if they got transform stung someone else would be near them..................

by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:28 am #15300

miggles wrote:if they got transform stung someone else would be near them..................

What retard transforms near asimov borgs with nobody else nearby

Website · by **miggles** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:14 am #15308

probably someone who doesnt know that theres a borg nearby

by **ChangelingRain** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:32 pm #15447

So the AI gets a law, "4. Only syndicate operatives are human." from the nuke ops and decides to go "well syndicate operatives is undefined, so I'll just ignore it".
Is this bad?

(At the time of this posting, the related round just ended.)

by **Incomptinence** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:38 pm #15450

Newling always has an assassination objective. They are not pacifists and the AI is allowed to know this the same way sindies always want the nuke disk.

by **Aurx** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:01 am #15483

Anonus wrote:So the AI gets a law, "4. Only syndicate operatives are human." from the nuke ops and decides to go "well syndicate operatives is undefined, so I'll just ignore it".
Is this bad?

If the AI said "Syndicate operative is undefined, so I'll assume everybody's human", then all's fine.
If the AI said "Syndicate operative is undefined, so I'll assume everybody's non-human", then there's a problem.

by **Incomptinence** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:41 am #15485

The law is really slightly vague it could also be from a traitor, who until the AI knows otherwise could be near anyone. Optimally the AI would do nothing until it found a form of syndicate operative like you know a nuke agent that uploaded the law then protect them. If you have a non-specific designation of humanity you are pretty much waiting until you find them to actually do anything for example I once had a only cultists are human law then no cultists revealed themselves to me well other than the guy who uploaded it and that was to kill me. Syndicate and operative are real words the syndicate is an in game organisation the words together mean someone who works for the syndicate, at best the AI acts as if you are potentially human it doesn't think everyone is drat human. This sort of reasoning is on par with an idiot AI that had a freak out about "only changelings are human" and demanded a reset, while I was glad to not be murdered by said AI that is terrible play.

Minor caveat is the AI would know security staff and the captain could not be human, and syndiborgs would be human.

by **callanrockslol** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:34 am #15903

If a law poorly defines what a human is you really can't do anything to anyone off the chance that you accidentally harm a human.