Early shuttle calls, "AI call it" on Manuel

[Ivuchnu]

Map vote for Donutstation passes. It's relative lowpop with 21 players on manifest. There's complaining on common channel, from you and others. You suggest to call shuttle. Other admin decides to spawn regal rats as part of event that make hostile NPCs, attack players and destroy APCs. You decide that you don't want to play this map AND put up with hostiles on station. You utter "AI, call shuttle when that's possible." on radio. AI does. Shuttle is recalled by CC. You get bwoinked and noted by Vekter. AI calls shuttle anyway on it's own, probably having law 1 on mind or actually hating Multi Z.

This happened during 135501: https://sb.atlantaned.space/rounds/135501 https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... nd-135501/

Should players get notes for asking AI to call shuttle? It takes "law 2, do not" from any other human and Asimov AI is free to not call shuttle just because one "call it".

[BeeSting12]

yes, you should get a note for kicking over all the toys in the sandbox when the children decided to play something you don't like. next time join one of our other servers, which probably has a different map, or sit out of spessmens for an hour or so. i strongly suspect the complaints on the radio were from a loud and vocal minority whilst the rest of the server was indifferent or enjoyed donut.

[Vekter]

Okay, I can't really be candid in my feedback thread, but I'd be happy to here.

Calling the shuttle because you don't like the station you're on is shitty and childish. Sorry you don't like a perfectly functional map just because it's missing a few things. That's not a reason to end the round early for the ~20 to 30 people playing.

[Ivuchnu]

I blame map rotation system and it's interaction with map preferences. If you could order maps from best to worst there, you'd not get sneaky Donut unless people indeed like it and pick it as favorite map via same system.

Map Vote
Box Station: 1
PubbyStation: 6
Delta Station: 2
Donutstation: 7
Vote Result: Donutstation

Was the vote that set next map to Donut. I missed it, definitely would put my vote for non-donut there.

Map Vote
Box Station: 3
MetaStation: 0
PubbyStation: 4
Delta Station: 6
Donutstation: 0
Vote Result: Delta Station

Was vote during that round.

Are we really talking about majority here? I'll abstain from asking AI to call shuttle, will instead never join Donutstation rounds. I guess that won't hurt silent "majority".

[cybersaber101]

You dont have to worry about an early shuttle call, the map breaks apart fast enough on its own.

[CPTANT]

We discussed the code solution of removing the Ai's ability to call the shuttle in the first place.

I think AI shuttle calls add very little except for early evacuations.

[Actionb]

Should players get notes for asking AI to call shuttle? It takes "law 2, do not" from any other human and Asimov AI is free to not call shuttle just because one "call it".

"Yeah I know I shouldn't have bought 30 packs of toilet paper, but nobody stopped me... so..."

We discussed the code solution of removing the Ai's ability to call the shuttle in the first place.

I think AI shuttle calls add very little except for early evacuations.

Don't code bandaid around people being dumb and abusing something.
What if the AI was the only one that could call a shuttle in a dire situation?

[CPTANT]

We discussed the code solution of removing the Ai's ability to call the shuttle in the first place.

I think AI shuttle calls add very little except for early evacuations.

Don't code bandaid around people being dumb and abusing something.
What if the AI was the only one that could call a shuttle in a dire situation?

Then it creates an interesting objective for the crew to call the shuttle and/or deal with that situation.

[Jack7D1]

Pretty silly to note someone for. The shuttle could have been recalled or, you know, solved IC by the admin if it's an admin event.

[CDranzer]

I don't think this is a policy problem, I think this is a Vekter problem.
Also, Donut is a terrible map that shouldn't even be on the rotation.

[Istoprocent1]

You are going to play Donut and you are going to like Donut or else!

[cacogen]

Round time isn't a good measure of whether the shuttle should be called, station integrity and living non-AFK/braindead population are better. Sounds like it wasn't justified based on those metrics in this case.

[cybersaber101]

You know, once an admin spawns hostile mobs or messes with shit I don't see why it's wrong to call the shuttle and noting someone for calling it due to an admin mini event is bait. on another note yes, calling the shuttle is very dumb if its solely over the map.

[Cobby]

Everything can be handled ICly, even metacomms (just kill the commers!). I don't see how that makes calling the shuttle purely because you don't like the map not an admin issue. If you don't like the map (or any situation currently going on in the server) @server notify in discord.

The correct solution would be to put up a PD removing the maps you don't like rather than asking if you can just flip the table when you don't get a favorable hand.

[Shadowflame909]

Is this a ban appeal? Or did the ban appeal get denied so they made a policy discussion thread.

It's weird to me to see a note over going "ai call the shuttle". Maybe because the admin was doing an event.

I'd advocate for the removal of the note, but once more nothing to be done policy wise.

So I'd advocate for headmins to close this thread as well.

[Cobby]

the note is fine, you shouldn't be rolling.

[Ivuchnu]

I created this thread because I felt like getting a note was not fair and I wanted admins to be clear on whenever other people will be noted for asking AI to call shuttle.

>Don't have antags enabled during that round
>"you shouldn't be rolling"

Yeah, right. I am not rolling for antag. I utterly despise combination of Donutstation, empty medbay and rats killing people. Why Box is being removed when Donut won removal vote?

[Arianya]

I think it's worthwhile to stay on topic for this thread - the map vote system or any proposed map removals belong in their own threads (and in the appropriate section).

If the question is "can you get noted for early shuttle calls if you have no good reason" then the answer is yes - among other things the AI can call the shuttle but can't recall it, so there's a lot of momentum that can lead to the shuttle call going through even if other's oppose it, which is to say nothing of others being busy not wrestling for control of the shuttle. These things combine to make it a bad idea to call the shuttle FNR.

That's to say nothing of asking for the shuttle to be called for an OOC consideration ("I don't like donut"). Also being sassy in ahelps when asked not to do something is a pretty good way to turn a no-note warning into a noted warning because we don't think you're going to follow the ruling.

Said in ahelp 'Please do not implement bad vote changes so mememaps win.'

[CDranzer]

That's to say nothing of asking for the shuttle to be called for an OOC consideration ("I don't like donut").

My character canonically holds a distaste for D.O.N.U.T. Class Nanotresen Station Hull Models. He regards them as poorly designed and assembled, and suspects that the only reason that they haven't been discontinued is because of certain high-ranking Central Command leaders who hold the model in high regard for nostalgic reasons. He considers the refactoring of the old hulls with the recent Multi-Z Refurbishment Program to be a desperate salvage attempt which is ultimately doomed to failure. To the best of his knowledge, he is not the only employee of Nanotresen who holds these opinions.

[Arianya]

That's to say nothing of asking for the shuttle to be called for an OOC consideration ("I don't like donut").

My character canonically holds a distaste for D.O.N.U.T. Class Nanotresen Station Hull Models. He regards them as poorly designed and assembled, and suspects that the only reason that they haven't been discontinued is because of certain high-ranking Central Command leaders who hold the model in high regard for nostalgic reasons. He considers the refactoring of the old hulls with the recent Multi-Z Refurbishment Program to be a desperate salvage attempt which is ultimately doomed to failure. To the best of his knowledge, he is not the only employee of Nanotresen who holds these opinions.

Your character canonically works for a despotic megacorp which is quite happy sending you to a hellhole deathtrap, regardless of variety of hellhole deathtrap, and cares little for your opinion on such, especially given they own your soul. Given that, your character would canonically be aware that trying to call an expensive escape shuttle because "I wanted to work on a different station" is liable to have your contract, and subsequently your life, terminated.

[CDranzer]

That's to say nothing of asking for the shuttle to be called for an OOC consideration ("I don't like donut").

My character canonically holds a distaste for D.O.N.U.T. Class Nanotresen Station Hull Models. He regards them as poorly designed and assembled, and suspects that the only reason that they haven't been discontinued is because of certain high-ranking Central Command leaders who hold the model in high regard for nostalgic reasons. He considers the refactoring of the old hulls with the recent Multi-Z Refurbishment Program to be a desperate salvage attempt which is ultimately doomed to failure. To the best of his knowledge, he is not the only employee of Nanotresen who holds these opinions.

Your character canonically works for a despotic megacorp which is quite happy sending you to a hellhole deathtrap, regardless of variety of hellhole deathtrap, and cares little for your opinion on such, especially given they own your soul. Given that, your character would canonically be aware that trying to call an expensive escape shuttle because "I wanted to work on a different station" is liable to have your contract, and subsequently your life, terminated.

My character is aware of his contractual ties to Nanotresen. However, he also appreciates that the front face of Corporate Efficiency is largely a facade. Nanotresen is a power structure, and all power structures are inherently similar. Nanotresen would like its employees to believe that they are completely disposable and that Central has supreme power. This is a farce. Nanotresen is its employees. Managing a group of disgruntled non-compliant employees is a recipe for economic and administrative disaster. Having slaves is great. Having lots of angry slaves with the means to produce Bluespace Artillery is not so great. Central walk that line every day - the delicate balance of threats and appeasement. If they were even half as competent as they would have people believe, their stations wouldn't crumble to dust in the void with such startling frequency.

Every complaint about D.O.N.U.T. stations is backed by an implicit reminder that sometimes appeasement is cheaper than oppression, and failure to comprehend that has been a very expensive lesson that others have had to learn before.

Spoiler:

This is fun but veering kind of off-topic

[Cobby]

I said you "should not be rolling", not "should not be rolling for antag".

Rolling meaning forcibly ending the round because of OOC reasons. You might could argue that your not liking the station is IC, but that is going to be a hard sell considering map rotation is an OOC concept and you are acting for the purpose of manipulating the map rotation (in a negative way).