Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

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Timberpoes
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Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Timberpoes » Sun May 10, 2020 8:01 pm #561320

Discussion and request for a specific ruling on the following point brought up by TheMidnightRose.

TheMidnightRose/(Replica Xion XIV) wrote:"I would like to remind you that having wings removes your humanity!"

TheMidnightRose/(Replica Xion XIV) wrote:"You would show up as Angels on health scanners"


While you don't show up as an angel, as Rose suggested you do, you do show up as a human-derived mutant. This is the same scan that shows up for Hulks.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules under the "Is it Human?" section has a listing for a great many things, however "angels", humans with wings or human-derived mutants (as per health scanners) are not defined here.

So, the discussion topic is simple: Are humans with wings still human under Asimov by the current silicon policy?

In addition, should this be covered in policy or could it be left up to each individual AI as to if they see humans with wings as humans?
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby trollbreeder » Sun May 10, 2020 8:06 pm #561321

As a further generalization of this, are humans who have undergone cat tail and ears surgery late into the round human?
Are they considered felinids as they are catboys/girls, or are they not since the scanner doesn't read felinid?
What about a lizard tail? Or xeno organs?
Would a lizard who has undergone felinidization surgery be considered a lizard under that same logic?
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun May 10, 2020 8:10 pm #561324

I'd put it under human.

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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby SkeletalElite » Sun May 10, 2020 9:57 pm #561339

I think the main reason for hulks being not human is because you HAVE to lethal them in order to detain them in any way so it would be impossible to avoid human harm.

The same doesn't really apply to wings.

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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Sun May 10, 2020 10:04 pm #561340

SkeletalElite wrote:I think the main reason for hulks being not human is because you HAVE to lethal them in order to detain them in any way so it would be impossible to avoid human harm.

The same doesn't really apply to wings.

It doesn't really apply to lizards either, but you can go hogwild on them if you so choose.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby zxaber » Sun May 10, 2020 10:31 pm #561344

I am like 99% certain that the strange potion used to change your displayed species to "angel".

Still, the point is that medical scanners do not show you as human (and instead a human-derived mutant). Getting cat ears sewn on doesn't change this, so you'd still be human.

When in doubt, referring to a medical analyzer is a good method of determining human status.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Timberpoes » Sun May 10, 2020 11:29 pm #561350

zxaber wrote:I am like 99% certain that the strange potion used to change your displayed species to "angel".

Still, the point is that medical scanners do not show you as human (and instead a human-derived mutant). Getting cat ears sewn on doesn't change this, so you'd still be human.

When in doubt, referring to a medical analyzer is a good method of determining human status.


You're the second person to mention Angel species now including Rose.

So I did a bit of code diving. 9 months ago this got changed https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46037 so that strange elixirs no longer change your species.

The part that triggers you to be considered a [species]-derived mutant is S.flying_species != initial(S.flying_species) in the health analzyer code. In other words, because you're able to fly when your species by default is normally not able to, you're now a [species]-derived mutant.

I think this makes "angels"/winged humans deserving of a policy ruling. They've changed from flat out being an Angel species to just humans that have mutated wings. How does this differ from a human that now has antenna from the genetics mutation of the same name? Similarly, the hulk genetics mutation has a unique check dedicated just to them in health analyzers and its own specific policy section ruling them non-human. There are arguments that go both ways.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby wesoda25 » Sun May 10, 2020 11:37 pm #561351

if health analyzer doesn’t specifically say human you aren’t human

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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon May 11, 2020 2:58 am #561377

As a further generalization of this, are humans who have undergone cat tail and ears surgery late into the round human?
The AI couldn't reasonably tell they're human so I'd say treat them as nonhuman even though they're really human. It's unreasonable to demand the AI health analyze every felinid to check if they were round start humans.

Are they considered felinids as they are catboys/girls, or are they not since the scanner doesn't read felinid?
Technically they are still human, but as AIs realistically can't check without a health analyzer, I'd say they should be treated as nonhuman. Don't bring up medical records since admins toggling purrbation on someone makes them nonhuman but medical records wouldn't be changed.

What about a lizard tail? Or xeno organs?
Both human. Easily recognizable as human so the AI shouldn't have trouble with it.

Would a lizard who has undergone felinidization surgery be considered a lizard under that same logic?
Yes, but it's irrelevant because both are nonhuman.

Onto the original question: I'd just call it an organ implant similar to getting a different heart/whatever and rule it as human.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby bandit » Tue May 12, 2020 7:46 am #561537

BeeSting12 wrote:As a further generalization of this, are humans who have undergone cat tail and ears surgery late into the round human?
The AI couldn't reasonably tell they're human so I'd say treat them as nonhuman even though they're really human. It's unreasonable to demand the AI health analyze every felinid to check if they were round start humans.

Are they considered felinids as they are catboys/girls, or are they not since the scanner doesn't read felinid?
Technically they are still human, but as AIs realistically can't check without a health analyzer, I'd say they should be treated as nonhuman. Don't bring up medical records since admins toggling purrbation on someone makes them nonhuman but medical records wouldn't be changed.

What about a lizard tail? Or xeno organs?
Both human. Easily recognizable as human so the AI shouldn't have trouble with it.

Would a lizard who has undergone felinidization surgery be considered a lizard under that same logic?
Yes, but it's irrelevant because both are nonhuman.

Onto the original question: I'd just call it an organ implant similar to getting a different heart/whatever and rule it as human.


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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Actionb » Wed May 13, 2020 1:17 pm #561703

BeeSting12 wrote:are humans who have undergone cat tail and ears surgery late into the round human?
The AI couldn't reasonably tell they're human so I'd say treat them as nonhuman

Onto the original question: I'd just call it an organ implant similar to getting a different heart/whatever and rule it as human.


Imagine having a role centered around the distinction between human/non-human and then blurring the lines so much to the point where it becomes a coin flip kind of decision.

Leave it to the AI to decide whether or not it accepts your snowflake status as human or not.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Davidchan » Fri May 15, 2020 12:03 am #561838

If it's not human, it's no human. Any mutant should be treated as a non-human regardless of how that mutation occured, and if the AI has evidence that someone has non-human characteristics they should treat that person as non-human until that person regains their human status by removal non-human attributes or restoration of their DNA/organs. If you are dead set on maintaining your human protections and privilidges to silicons, don't snowflake your character or have the laws changed/updated to define all crew as human or what ever snowflake mutant you are going for.

There is enough bloat in silicon policy as it is without adding more grey areas and uneven lines for what is and isn't 'human'.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby NoxVS » Fri May 15, 2020 12:48 am #561842

There really needs to be something on the HUD showing if someone is human or not. Since right now you have a lot of problems where its difficult as fuck to tell

Normal human - Human
Human with cat organs - Human
Catperson - Nonhuman
Catperson with human organs - Nonhuman
Augmented human - Human
Android (Nearly identical to augmented humans) - Nonhuman
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri May 15, 2020 6:48 am #561871

cat meow human dont

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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby CPTANT » Fri May 15, 2020 9:30 am #561887

Honestly the majority of problems comes from the fact that we want to shoehorn catpersons into being nonhuman.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Flatulent » Fri May 15, 2020 10:13 pm #561937

CPTANT wrote:Honestly the majority of problems comes from the fact that we want to shoehorn catpersons into being nonhuman.

hulks are not human but are mutant humans and so would be cat people if we stop considering them to be xenoes
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 am #562069

You can't have it both ways on the matter of 'human-derived mutant'. If you take the potion you fall into the same category as felinids and hulks. Totally not human. There is no need for a new policy, this is already an established policy.

If you want to stay human, don't drink the potion.

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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Flatulent » Mon May 18, 2020 8:47 am #562071

felinids aren’t human derived mutants and have no connection to homo sapiens
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Davidchan » Mon May 18, 2020 11:38 am #562079

Flatulent wrote:felinids aren’t human derived mutants and have no connection to homo sapiens


https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Felinids

Genus: Homo Sapiens Felis

Humans spread from arm to arm of the galaxy. But something happened along the way. Mutants, though closer to humanity than other species, are still barred from higher positions in the chain of command.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Flatulent » Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm #562102

> tg lore

no
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Davidchan » Wed May 20, 2020 12:14 am #562194

Flatulent wrote:> tg lore

no


So when presented IC and OOC information that your point of view is wrong you just deny it.Seems legit.

Catgirls have always been human mutants and always declared nonhuman because mutants.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Flatulent » Wed May 20, 2020 9:11 pm #562294

Felinids are, for all intents and purposes, their own species.
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby trollbreeder » Wed May 20, 2020 10:22 pm #562300

there's a line between subhuman and nonhuman and you guys have no idea what it is
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby nianjiilical » Thu May 21, 2020 2:57 am #562329

my personal opinion as an ai player is that unless it's a complete mutation/transformation of the entire body, it should matter more based on what your original species was

if you start the round as a human, it doesnt matter how many things get stapled onto you or swapped out, you stay a human, unless something happens to you that completely changes your entire body and species in one go

that said this is an interesting ship of thesius problem, and with angel wings as they currently are in the game, i don't think that they do enough to really justify calling them a nonhuman species, but then you could probably say the same about felinids

the entire human/nonhuman divide really does feel like a case of meta/policy as opposed to consistent logic; felinids are nonhuman because funny catgirls even though their physiological differences are so minor, but it would be extremely easy to classify them as being human mutants, and hulks kind of feel like they're defined as nonhuman just for gameplay purposes

maybe angel potions should be updated to have more drastic cosmetic effects?
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Re: Silicon policy, strange elixir and humans with wings

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Sun May 31, 2020 8:34 am #563392

You get a cool attribute, but in the process you forfeit your human status.
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