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Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:29 am
by FloranOtten
A voluntary conversion mode to full antag is, shockingly, a terrible idea. It just means that every round devolves into bombing and plasmaflooding because hey, free antag! This means that instead of fighting among each other while trying to keep the stars down and then defeat the cops, you end up with a situation where the cops just arrive in a warzone and walk about trying to kill the last members so the shuttle can leave.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:25 am
by Thunder11
Since this change was made I've seen a distinct change in behaviour during families rounds, with security moving more and more towards extreme crackdowns, permabrigging every family member and hunting down undercover cops to steal their gang huds. Previously family members' semi antag status meant admins could protect them from these kinds of measures, but making them full antags allows security to freely treat them as valid, and as long as gangsters are allowed to go off and murderbone there's no way to justify telling security not to act like it's a rev round without flashes.

This isn't fun for security, because it's just rev with a fresh coat of paint and every single antag is a revhead, and it isn't fun for family members because if you even try to play the mode like you're a gangster and not a revolutionary you'll just be arrested and permabrigged because sec can't know your intentions.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:36 am
by trollbreeder
To clarify, goof's intention was, and i quote from the original PR description:
Iamgoofball wrote:Gangster VS Gangster: Valid. All times. Even if it's same-team. These crime families aren't exactly known for their stability or rigid code of honor.
Gangster VS Civvie: Don't start shit for no good reason. Standard escalation rules apply.
Civvie VS Gangster: Same as above.
Security: Security IS civvies for all intents and purposes. Unless they join up with a gang.


However this was changed due to headmins not wanting to enforce "specialty valid rules"

Screenshots on discord:
Spoiler:
Image
Image


e: lol I accidentally edited this post instead of replying to it. My bad. -phuzz

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:34 pm
by Cobby
Gangs are still team antagonists, I’m not sure what point of reference people are using to justify mass sabotage and murderboning.

If the idea that murderboning is ok because you can’t discern who is and who isn’t your team instead of you cannot murderbone for this reason then we should stop running it on LRP as they are beyond help.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:09 am
by saprasam
reminder that you can stop all antags by being good at the game

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:13 am
by cacogen
remove families
You can't be half a gangster

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:37 pm
by SkeletalElite
Remove families members's full antag status

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:55 pm
by NecromancerAnne
And thus the cycle continues.

I look forward to sniper rifle jousting enemy gangsters. It's comin'. Just you wait.

(we should never have let gangs have antag status and just let them identify enemy gangs and each other)

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:07 pm
by Cobby
what are people pointing to that thinks they get full murderbone abilities as a team antagonist

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:21 pm
by FloranOtten
Another issue is the unga factor. This mode is just TDM. People wear their team's suit, and security just runs around killing or arresting family members. For good reason, mind you. They would probably end up killing the sec, too. This means that this mode is just revs++.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:18 pm
by pugie
revs but +++ sounds like a good gamemode thats the philosophy with cult

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:10 am
by Tlaltecuhtli
wait it was full antag all along?

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:06 pm
by NecromancerAnne
I don't even think anyone has a clue at this point. I feel like we need a headmin to come in pretty soon to clarify this since there is an obviously catastrophic amount of misinformation about this.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:25 pm
by Cobby
Literally on join it says explicitly you’re a team antag.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:05 am
by remanseptim
before it was known that family members were real antags, a huge portion of the server suicided whenever the gamemode rolled around.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:54 pm
by cacogen
remanseptim wrote:before it was known that family members were real antags, a huge portion of the server suicided whenever the gamemode rolled around.

sounds like a dynamic and exciting gamemode

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:05 pm
by NecromancerAnne
Was it really so hard to just say 'fight the other gangs, not normal crew unless they take the fight too you'? Voluntary full antag is not only ridiculous, but seems entirely contrary to previous policy. Cobby can keep saying they can't bone but what actually stops a solo gangster from going to town, or just two of them to limit friendly casualties? To stop them at this point is to actually break precedent.

If your gang is onboard with it, presumably they can do whatever they want, since they have all the permissions of a normal antag. The only thing we have done is tell people to not be actively harmful towards your teams efforts. If that is 'kill anyone who isn't us', as far as I can tell they can do that.

More importantly so can the fucking cops, since I asked goof and he said they were full antags as well. They have high powered weapons for fucks sake, and their only objective is to kill gangsters, who they can't identify anymore, so it might as well be a deathsquad. We do have antagonistic roles that exist in grey areas, and if the only reason it isn't like this is because it's too confusing for the NPCs that gravitate from the hub, that's tough shit for them?

I'm all for a game mode which lets your choose whether you wish to participate or not in the violence and dumb shit, since forced antag is a pretty bad feel moment in the middle of a project. I am not onboard with unironic free antag with an automated deathsquad to end the round forcefully. If our policy for LRP isn't adequate for a higher standard, why the fuck did we ever enable the game mode there in the first place?

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:55 pm
by Cobby
to clarify, I dont care if you bone so long as you can come to the conclusion that each individual either posed an immediate, legitimate threat to you (self defense) or they were not on your gang.

If you just casually bone and "uh oh i ended up owning my gang" im going to ban you for it. Same as rev with the understanding that not being able to see if they are on your gang is not good enough to excuse instakilling people over.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:13 pm
by capn_monkeypaw
trollbreeder wrote:To clarify, goof's intention was, and i quote from the original PR description:
Iamgoofball wrote:Gangster VS Gangster: Valid. All times. Even if it's same-team. These crime families aren't exactly known for their stability or rigid code of honor.
Gangster VS Civvie: Don't start shit for no good reason. Standard escalation rules apply.
Civvie VS Gangster: Same as above.
Security: Security IS civvies for all intents and purposes. Unless they join up with a gang.


However this was changed due to headmins not wanting to enforce "specialty valid rules"

Screenshots on discord:
Spoiler:
Image
Image




We never said anything about "specialty valid rules." The last time someone asked for clarification regarding the antag status of undercover cops, we literally pasted goof's response into the thread.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26909&p=566200#p566198

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:59 am
by trollbreeder
capn_monkeypaw wrote:We never said anything about "specialty valid rules." The last time someone asked for clarification regarding the antag status of undercover cops, we literally pasted goof's response into the thread.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26909&p=566200#p566198

That's odd and contradictory to what i found, but i guess goof changed it (probably due to unga factor from players.)

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:52 pm
by Cobby
neither should be considered official if they arent relayed to https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings or the policy json

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:26 pm
by CrazyClown12
Can we clarify whether family members are allowed to kill people in their own families if they aren't wearing uniforms?

Wearing a uniform is normally pretty stupid is it identifies to the entire crew that you are an antag and that they are allowed to kill you. For this reason a lot of family members don't identify themselves at such. It's pretty clear that killing your teammates breaks the 'don't harm your team' rule, but is this enforced in families when plain clothes family members die? I've yet to hear any ban and from chatting to some admins they interpret the rule as you not killing anyone who is obviously in your family (clothes, tagging walls etc). In my opinion if you aren't sure whether someone is in your gang or not, you shouldn't kill them. If you do kill someone who turns out to be in your family you should be open to punishment (provided you didn't have reason to believe they weren't in your family, such as wearing another family's outfit.

With all that said, I find the most enjoyable way to play families is not to join one and to pick up a recruitment book. This way you can still kill the police officers who are obvious antags yet are less likely to slaughter random crew members that aren't in families (until more of them realise that they have full antag status anyway, I witnessed a police officer murderboning for the first time today). You also have a light antagHUD by throwing the recruitment book at people. If they read it, you witness them become valid and can kill them. If they tell you they are already in a family, they become valid and you can kill them. I find it a lot more fun than being in a family, where you have to toe the line between being obvious to other family members but not to security or validhunters and then being instantly recognisable by the police.

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:09 am
by Flatulent
pugie wrote:revs but +++ sounds like a good gamemode thats the philosophy with cult


t. edgar "i dont like cult time to succumb and dnr" pope

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:15 am
by Flatulent
Cobby wrote:Gangs are still team antagonists, I’m not sure what point of reference people are using to justify mass sabotage and murderboning.

direct quote from rule page: Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team.
If your team is too full and you cant get more members you can just go apeshit on the crew.
as long as you end up getting that EPIC GREENTEXT THAT IS VERY COOL WE LIKE GETTING GREENTEXT YES YES you can do whatever the fuck you want

Re: Remove family members's full antag status

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:59 am
by Cobby
See my second to last post