Increase Manuel's Popcap

[Sheodir]

Not as much of an issue with the server being constantly too full anymore, and instead what happens is that 50 ends up causing the server to be understaffed even when full in certain departments. Raising to 60 (70) should be safe, right?

[Space Panda]

i agree

i play as head of personnel a lot on manuel and i see we always have understaffing problems, even in rounds where the server is full

edit:

yesterday i played a round that had over 40 people, but had only 1 person working in science

[Agux909]

Agree x2. We need higher cap since a lot of people joins to observe (I do sometimes when I dont feel like playing) and often when I join a supossedly full pop (or near) round, all heads of staff are missing, theres only 1 medic, theres no sec officers, etc.

I think the dust has settled finally (as in the crazy influx we had at the beginning) and it is time.

[RaveRadbury]

Here's the link to last time this came up.

[cacogen]

Agree x2. We need higher cap since a lot of people joins to observe (I do sometimes when I dont feel like playing) and often when I join a supossedly full pop (or near) round, all heads of staff are missing, theres only 1 medic, theres no sec officers, etc.

observers and maybe even dead shouldn't count

[Sheodir]

Here's the link to last time this came up.

I bought a BYOND membership but not everyone can do that specially with the way

*peeks through the blinds*

Things currently are

10 slots wouldn't hurt eyyy

[Cimika]

Instead of adding more slots, what about limiting assistant slots ? I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec. And I know that people will look at the manifest and won't join because of it. At least I tend to do that.

[Flatulent]

I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec.

thats because all sec got banned

[PKPenguin321]

Instead of adding more slots, what about limiting assistant slots ? I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec. And I know that people will look at the manifest and won't join because of it. At least I tend to do that.

Are you sure you want assistant players to be forced into playing security?

[Space Panda]

Instead of adding more slots, what about limiting assistant slots ? I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec. And I know that people will look at the manifest and won't join because of it. At least I tend to do that.

Are you sure you want assistant players to be forced into playing security?

assistants will not be switching to sec necessarily you dofus

they'll be competing for other jobs too, and people who originally played those other jobs might try playing as security because somebody else took their slot

[PKPenguin321]

Instead of adding more slots, what about limiting assistant slots ? I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec. And I know that people will look at the manifest and won't join because of it. At least I tend to do that.

Are you sure you want assistant players to be forced into playing security?

assistants will not be switching to sec necessarily you dofus

they'll be competing for other jobs too, and people who originally played those other jobs might try playing as security because somebody else took their slot

Are you sure you want assistant players playing other jobs that have any semblance of value or importance?

[RaveRadbury]

I think that it would be worth bumping the popcaps by 10, maybe bump the extreme cap by 20 so we can support a larger ghost pool.

[cybersaber101]

I think that it would be worth bumping the popcaps by 10, maybe bump the extreme cap by 20 so we can support a larger ghost pool.

I'd rather keep the extreme cap it at 10. and just increase the popcap by 10 instead. Manuel has too many ghosts already.

[carshalash]

Please no more pop chasers.

[Cobby]

Just get someone to code the popcaps to ignore people who select observe from the getgo.

Our population numbers currently are based on that notion anyways.

[Stickymayhem]

Instead of adding more slots, what about limiting assistant slots ? I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec. And I know that people will look at the manifest and won't join because of it. At least I tend to do that.

Are you sure you want assistant players to be forced into playing security?

assistants will not be switching to sec necessarily you dofus

they'll be competing for other jobs too, and people who originally played those other jobs might try playing as security because somebody else took their slot

Are you sure you want assistant players playing other jobs that have any semblance of value or importance?

On manuel they can't get away with the same greytiding bullshit. They're obligated to follow authority and their job description to a greater extent than the other servers.

So they get banned and the pop issue is solved anyway

[PKPenguin321]

Instead of adding more slots, what about limiting assistant slots ? I'm tired of shifts with 8+ assistants with zero sec. And I know that people will look at the manifest and won't join because of it. At least I tend to do that.

Are you sure you want assistant players to be forced into playing security?

assistants will not be switching to sec necessarily you dofus

they'll be competing for other jobs too, and people who originally played those other jobs might try playing as security because somebody else took their slot

Are you sure you want assistant players playing other jobs that have any semblance of value or importance?

On manuel they can't get away with the same greytiding bullshit. They're obligated to follow authority and their job description to a greater extent than the other servers.

So they get banned and the pop issue is solved anyway

Riiight... You see engineers that don't set up power get banned all the time for greytiding, so of course...

[Tarchonvaagh]

Just get someone to code the popcaps to ignore people who select observe from the getgo.

Our population numbers currently are based on that notion anyways.

Finally a good idea

[Coconutwarrior97]

Originally I wanted to increase the popcap for Manuel a bit but now I want to wait on this since Campbell is being tested. Lets see how that goes.

[remanseptim]

Originally I wanted to increase the popcap for Manuel a bit but now I want to wait on this since Campbell is being tested. Lets see how that goes.

how's it going so far coconut?

[cybersaber101]

Why not raise it anyway regardless of Campbells success or not? so you dont have a situation where if campbell doesn't draw people you have the first issue solved.

[MrStonedOne]

Because we want people who bumped up against manual's popcap to go to campbell to help seed it.

[Stickymayhem]

Because we want people who bumped up against manual's popcap to go to campbell to help seed it.

But man it's a real bummer when you see manuel at near maxcap and there's still two heads, no security and like 25 people alive it's rough.

Like I don't think we have enough of an MRP to seed campbell I'd like to have seen manuel grow a bit more before we starting splitting that playerbase.

[Sylphet]

Yeah, I'm really not sure why ghosts count against the population cap. Lots of Manuel players enjoy observing - this shouldn't punish the people who choose to play by leaving them without command and security.

[Agux909]

But man it's a real bummer when you see manuel at near maxcap and there's still two heads, no security and like 25 people alive it's rough.

This.

Yeah, I'm really not sure why ghosts count against the population cap. Lots of Manuel players enjoy observing - this shouldn't punish the people who choose to play by leaving them without command and security.

Also this. While theyre fixing bugs and modifying the layout of perma, maybe it's time for coders to sit down and change how these kind of spaghetti things work?
Imagine ocuppying a play slot in any game just because you're spectating it. Sorry for my extreme insolence against the allmighty coding masters or whatever

And no, I'm not gonna code it myself because i'm not interested in coding, just playing a chill space sim when I come back from work. And yes, coders work for free like admins, but they could've also just decided not to be coders for TG nor hold the title in their names if they were gonna be so annoyed at the idea of coding something beneficial to someone other than themselves.

Just a preemptive lil rant here. Has nothing to do with the foot I used to get outta bed today.

But seriously either raise the cap or make ghosts to not count towards popcap. Both would be desirable but only one really needed.

[Sheodir]

Fixing ghosts counting towards popcap would work, as long as obviously there's some limiter still applying to ghost roles. I'm just tired of joining a bursting pop round of Manuel as a Sec Guard with my BYOND membership and be greeted with my colleagues - a warden and sometimes a single other Sec officer.

[remanseptim]

i doubt it has to do with pop, and moreso with security and command (security especially) being absolutely boring on manuel
and as command you don't have much to do because you don't have to herd your retards since everybody already does their job

[Sheodir]

i doubt it has to do with pop, and moreso with security and command (security especially) being absolutely boring on manuel
and as command you don't have much to do because you don't have to herd your retards since everybody already does their job

Not to turn this into another reeee argument but Assistant break-ins and the like still happen enough to keep you occupied outside of antag spam hour. I've rarely got shifts where I have nothing to do, and those would be boring in most other jobs (Engi, Med, etc) as well. There is an absurd number of Assistants in Manuel, I'll give you that.

[Agux909]

i doubt it has to do with pop, and moreso with security and command (security especially) being absolutely boring on manuel
and as command you don't have much to do because you don't have to herd your retards since everybody already does their job

You've already made crystal clear with previous posts that your definition of "fun" is completely tunelvisioned and reduced to specific gimmicks you like. Stop putting the rest of the playerbase on the same bag you are, people do have fun in an entire spectrum of ways that escape your awareness.

You yourself make your own posts irrelevant retroactively. I can be HoP in a greenshift with a pacific character and still get a lot of fun from it, as a counterpoint (which isn't even necessary at this point).

[MrStonedOne]

there are 2 popcaps, ghosts only count against 1.

The amount of people allowed in the round, and the amount of people allowed connected to the server.

Ghost count against the second because the whole point of it is is to avoid overloading the server.

[remanseptim]

You've already made crystal clear with previous posts that your definition of "fun" is completely tunelvisioned and reduced to specific gimmicks you like. Stop putting the rest of the playerbase on the same bag you are, people do have fun in an entire spectrum of ways that escape your awareness.

You yourself make your own posts irrelevant retroactively. I can be HoP in a greenshift with a pacific character and still get a lot of fun from it, as a counterpoint (which isn't even necessary at this point).

my definition of fun is a lot broader than you think. typically I am content if I am doing something.
wandering around the station for 2 and a half hours while literally (and I cannot stress this enough: literally) nothing happens save for people silently grinding away at their job does not fall under that broad definition.
literally, and I mean literally, without any exaggeration, 150 minutes with confirmed traitors, where nothing of note happens. and this is over 40 pop.
security just has nothing to do. the other jobs can actually fulfill their duties, but security hardly has any duties, since half the shit you'd normally arrest for is against the rules, and the other half,, people are too scared to do for fear of getting bwoinked anyways.

[Agux909]

It's still your opinion and not the way everyone thinks, so get out of your bubble.

Also, don't come up again with the whole "everyone's afraid of bwoinks", people just has different playstyles and if they prefer to do things other than boning it doesnt immediately mean that. We're here trying to solve things while you come in and start following your tail like a dog about to lie on their bed, not offering any solution and just bringing the same popular trendy phrases people likes to throw around.

I'm still waiting for you to bullet point me where the MRP rules are vague in the other thread, and your ideal complete revamp of them, which, to noones surprise, seems you couldn't do, and without which your posts in that threat are just as useless and irrelevant as the ones in this one. Please just stop.


Currently the "true" pop is really low, a lot of people likes observing on Manuel (which is fine) so at times, 60 will mean 30-40 connections, of which 20-30 are ghosts, and maybe 5 or 10 are fiddling around in their character creator, and only 20-30 are actually on the station, leaving a seemingly high-pop round with more than half the roles vacant.

MSO, if the hard limit is there to prevent the server from shitting it's pants, then the sensible solution is to simply raise the highpop as Sheodir suggested in his OP. Unless coders find a way to make a separate popcap for active players and "connections", but it could get very overcomplicated, as people still join the server as "connections".

I think 70(80) would be ideal.

[remanseptim]

It's still your opinion and not the way everyone thinks, so get out of your bubble.

Also, don't come up again with the whole "everyone's afraid of bwoinks", people just has different playstyles and if they prefer to do things other than boning it doesnt immediately mean that. We're here trying to solve things while you come in and start following your tail like a dog about to lie on their bed, not offering any solution and just bringing the same popular trendy phrases people likes to throw around.

I'm still waiting for you to bullet point me where the MRP rules are vague in the other thread, and your ideal complete revamp of them, which, to noones surprise, seems you couldn't do, and without which your posts in that threat are just as useless and irrelevant as the ones in this one. Please just stop.

"different playstyles" ideally shouldn't mean "literally nothing".
and yes, it is my opinion. yes, other people disagree. we are on the forum where people tend to disagree with each other.
just because it's an opinion you don't like, however, doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
what's literally irrelevant is you bringing up a different thread on a different topic entirely.

[Agux909]

Not irrelevant as it shows precedent for the same shared user, which is you. And just as the precedent you're still not offering any solution to this topic either.

I respect your opinion but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Yes people can disagree but usually will bring constructive perspectives about a topic and the way to solve a problem, which you aren't doing here. If you want me to leave you with the last word I'll gladly do it, I've already posted in here my ideas for solving this.

Just please don't make this more about you than you have done until now, I'd still like to read useful opinions and posts of people that actually care about solving this, and more importantly, who actually have something to say.

[remanseptim]

you want my thoughts? treat more things as IC issues.

there's a lack of conflict, controlled or otherwise, on manuel. you can't tell me not to bring up people being scared of bwoinks when you get bwoinked and noted for things as simple as breaking into cargo to steal a multitool.
without admin intervention it's very, very rare to see a round on manuel evolve beyond 'shift on space station 13'. now this is fine if you're playing a service job or science or engineering where your role, both mechanically and ICly, is to provide something to the rest of the crew: jannies always have mess to clean, cooks are always required to make more food, and engineers have all the time in the world for autism projects.

the issue comes with roles in command and, definitely more severely, security. i'll focus on the latter for now. unlike the other roles, security exists solely as a reactionary force to actions made by other players. usually this has to do with antagonists, but widespread antagonism is rare on manuel to begin with. otherwise they primarily serve as a peacekeeping/anti-tide brigade, a wall there to stop escalation from killing people.

the issue with that is that committing crimes that security is there to prevent is in violation of the rules. you can get bwoinked and noted for breaking into cargo to grab a multitool, for example. on LRP, things like that are allowed, but that doesn't really matter because security's got Urist McGreyshirt slaughtering people en masse with a desword to deal with, but on manuel, distractions of that scale usually do not occur. manuel is the ideal environment where security is able to, and should be able to, deal with non-destructive, but still illegal activity like theft, vandalism, and general ne'er-do-wellism.

making minor tiding like break-ins, theft, and vandalism entirely, unambiguously allowed by the rules, but still ICly illegal, would give security something active to do. there's always spacemen willing to cause trouble, like there's always a need for minerals, or always hungry crewmembers. it's not like on bagil where sec actually has more important things to worry about than tiding that guy who deconned the wall into tech storage to get insuls; manuel officers, most of the time, do not. it is literally the optimal server to have non-murderous conflict between troublemakers and security.

it'd give security a chance to actually play their role.

also leave campbell up as a persistent server and bump manuel to 70 pop.

[Agux909]

Good. Thanks for finally giving something we can work with. You pointed out a couple of things that, after re-reading the MRP rules, have left me a bit unconvinced too. I will post my thoughts later in the corresponding thread.

[Sheodir]

Reman I steal engi gear as a Paramedic often and have never gotten bwoinked or noted for it. I also play a lot of Manuel Sec and B&E is still most of what we deal with. I'm not saying you aren't on the right track, but most of these things are already treated as IC issues. It's very different if you are breaking into engi tools every fucking shift to get the hand teleporter, which will get you noted down as a powerplayer eventually, I suppose.

[remanseptim]

Reman I steal engi gear as a Paramedic often and have never gotten bwoinked or noted for it. I also play a lot of Manuel Sec and B&E is still most of what we deal with. I'm not saying you aren't on the right track, but most of these things are already treated as IC issues. It's very different if you are breaking into engi tools every fucking shift to get the hand teleporter, which will get you noted down as a powerplayer eventually, I suppose.

i have been bwoinked for such simple things as stealing a multitool from cargo, or entering robotics (through an already open door) both as an assistant. given, this was when manuel was newer, and admins hadn't fallen into the general atmosphere of the server.
that being said, i was still bwoinked and noted, and others can be too. it depends on the admin that is on. having to tailor the way you play according to which admin is on is absolutely absurd, and i'd like to see the headmins make a final ruling on whether or not minor tiding like that is allowed.

[Sheodir]

i have been bwoinked for such simple things as stealing a multitool from cargo, or entering robotics (through an already open door) both as an assistant. given, this was when manuel was newer, and admins hadn't fallen into the general atmosphere of the server.
that being said, i was still bwoinked and noted, and others can be too. it depends on the admin that is on. having to tailor the way you play according to which admin is on is absolutely absurd, and i'd like to see the headmins make a final ruling on whether or not minor tiding like that is allowed.

It's true Manuel at its earliest point would be bwoink heavy, but if you have those notes I'd strongly suggest appealing them. Not only for yourself, but because it'd set a clearer precedent for the server at large.

[cybersaber101]

welp. 2 weeks is a good amount of time, looks like its dead in the water!

[Jack7D1]

Still noticing a lot of EU players still go to Manuel despite campbell

[Coconutwarrior97]

Manuel hardcap increased to 60, extreme cap increased to 70.
Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Phuzzylodgik: Yes.
TWATICUS: Yes.