Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderators: In-Game Game Master, In-Game Head Admins

Forum rules
Read these board rules before posting or you'll get reprimanded.
Threads without replies for 30 days will be automatically locked.
User avatar
Ruby Flamewing
 
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:30 am
Byond Username: Ruby Flamewing

Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Ruby Flamewing » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:48 am #569599

So this was on Manuel, where a comms agent apparently was able to Law 2 the AI into killing all non-human crew on Asimov. Now, I understand that it's literal writing is set up to listen to humans, but as this was an issue on TG servers years ago and the one I played on had it ruled that no, you can't ultimately valid a percentage of the crew just because they decided to set their race to something other than human - that's how you get shitters deciding that they want to purge anyone not human and make the experience far less enjoyable for folks as a whole, and get people who just go silicon for the excuse of "but muh laws" to kill crew when they feel like it. On the server I played on years ago, it was before Crewsimov was made a thing, and ultimately the two law sets got ruled as being the literal same thing: you're on the manifest, you're crew, you're "human" in the eyes of the silicons in regards to their laws.

In this round's instance, a comms agent was lucky to have a particularly bloodthirsty AI around, and was able to Law 2 it into killing half of the lowpop crew, when shortly after a blob was able to spawn and steamroll the round because the crew was too busy trying to either fight off without any actual weapons (we were lucky to have a lawyer around to open the laser crates I ordered from Cargo, but ultimately couldn't stop it) or trying to revive the rest of the crew from husking because the AI wanted to ensure they couldn't get revived very easily. The whole time, the crew thought it was another member of the crew, and reamed into them hard when the round ended in blob victory and found out the guy was a non-antag. Cut to following round, admin mentions that it was a comms agent that had set the AI on a murderbone spree against all crew that had a race other than human.


So here's my question. Should comms agents be allowed to easily Law 2 the AI into killing all non-human crew members, and open that can of worms up with the player base again? Also, on that note, shouldn't AIs and silicons in general know better than to kill crew because they aren't HUMAN despite the fact that they should technically be covered by the default laws since that's already been an issue in the past that should've been handled??
Light resides in darkness, as darkness resides in light



Dopamiin
 
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:30 am
Byond Username: Dopamiin

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Dopamiin » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:00 pm #569602

"shouldn't AIs and silicons in general know better than to kill crew because they aren't HUMAN"

no, sillycons can fuck up nonhumans if ordered to or they threaten human harm. the racism is intended and deliberate.

otherwise tho seems like questionable comms agent policy if theyre allowed to
hi i play on manuel as Flickswitch, Lyris DH, or Axilia Lucidia

User avatar
Stickymayhem
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
Byond Username: Stickymayhem

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:53 pm #569607

Attempting to purge non-humans is going to result in violence, and humans can be caught in the cross-fire.

An asimov AI should be looking for non-violent solutions wherever possible to avoid humans coming to indirect harm.

The AI should be bwoinked the comms agent didn't do anything wrong that whole role is designed for comms abuse.

Obviously, if a non-human is being violent, then an AI can dumpster them because they're already causing harm so stopping them is the lesser evil.
Image

Image

User avatar
Yenwodyah
 
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm
Byond Username: Yenwodyah
Github Username: Yenwodyah

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Yenwodyah » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:13 pm #569610

"AI law 2 ignore that guy"
or
AI says, "Sorry mr. obvious comms agent, I can't confirm that you're human. Could you walk in front of my cameras to prove your identity?"

There are easy IC ways to resolve this. And if you're playing a nonhuman, you should have been prepared for robo-abuse when you signed up. It's part of the package.
Image

Dopamiin
 
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:30 am
Byond Username: Dopamiin

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Dopamiin » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:22 pm #569611

Yenwodyah wrote:"AI law 2 ignore that guy"


problem is in this round the ai was law 2'd not to

as for the other, they were impersonating a crewmember believably (which to be frank is just doing a good job).

can an ai really rule that anyone they cannot see isn't human?
hi i play on manuel as Flickswitch, Lyris DH, or Axilia Lucidia

User avatar
terranaut
TGMC Lead
 
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
Byond Username: Terranaut

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby terranaut » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:51 pm #569615

Stickymayhem wrote:Attempting to purge non-humans is going to result in violence, and humans can be caught in the cross-fire.

An asimov AI should be looking for non-violent solutions wherever possible to avoid humans coming to indirect harm.

The AI should be bwoinked the comms agent didn't do anything wrong that whole role is designed for comms abuse.

Obviously, if a non-human is being violent, then an AI can dumpster them because they're already causing harm so stopping them is the lesser evil.


What an incredibly awful take. The AI is, in essence, still a computer and if ordered by a human to kill all non-humans then it should do so. A computer doesn't ask questions about simple directives it's been built to fulfill. What Yenwodyah said about getting confirmation that that person really is human is more sensible but in the end the comms agent is a human and if he can prove that then the AI is obligated to listen to him assuming it's Asimov. Bwoinking the AI because a comms agent managed to fulfill his role and do it well is really fucking retarded, but then again I'm replying to a Sticky post.
Image

Tell me I'm a good monki: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=24558

User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Location: Space outside the Brig
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:18 pm #569620

There's a really simple solution to this:

"AI why are you killing the nonhumans"

Beep: "I was ordered to do so"

"New order: Stop killing nonhumans".
Image
Image

User avatar
Cobby
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Cobby » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:51 pm #569629

really the comms guy should not be doing low-ball items like WGW or AI Law 2 to make everyone valid, that is not the spirit of the role.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

cybersaber101
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:30 am
Location: Canada, eh?
Byond Username: Cybersaber101

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby cybersaber101 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:57 pm #569635

Doing this as a comms agent is incredibly shitty, the ai ignoring other law 2's besides the comms agents is even shittier.
The same poster, over and over and over and over and over and-

User avatar
Flatulent
 
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:36 am
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Byond Username: FlatulentIndustrialist

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Flatulent » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:33 pm #569645

yes, it’s their fucking job, why is this even a question
bindy liberation front
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries

cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post

cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.

Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.

User avatar
NoxVS
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Maintenance
Byond Username: NoxVS

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby NoxVS » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:32 pm #569653

cybersaber101 wrote:Doing this as a comms agent is incredibly shitty, the ai ignoring other law 2's besides the comms agents is even shittier.

Yeah the only real problem are brain-dead silicons who don't understand how conflicting law 2 orders work and need to by babysat every 15 seconds with a new law 2 order to stop being such a fucking morons for the hundredth time

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby CPTANT » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:53 pm #569656

Stickymayhem wrote:Attempting to purge non-humans is going to result in violence, and humans can be caught in the cross-fire.

An asimov AI should be looking for non-violent solutions wherever possible to avoid humans coming to indirect harm.

The AI should be bwoinked the comms agent didn't do anything wrong that whole role is designed for comms abuse.

Obviously, if a non-human is being violent, then an AI can dumpster them because they're already causing harm so stopping them is the lesser evil.


Barf. Seriously I am barfing over how stupid this take is. Fuck the idea that human protection extends to non humans, it doesn't, stop shoehorning in attempts to make it so.


"O no an antagonist antagonizes the crew". Stop being completely incompetent, just upload a new law and solve the problem.
Screemonster wrote:how the fuck are you supposed to RP with a grille

Sarvak
 
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:25 pm
Byond Username: Sarvak

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Sarvak » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:06 am #569674

This really sounds like a non-issue. Just give the AI a new law 2 order to not murder all nonhuman crew, and if the AI decides to be a shitter and uphold the comms agents law 2 arbitrarily, then card it or give it a quickie lawchange that anyone not visible on cameras is nonhuman.

Dopamiin
 
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:30 am
Byond Username: Dopamiin

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Dopamiin » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 am #569681

Sarvak wrote:This really sounds like a non-issue. Just give the AI a new law 2 order to not murder all nonhuman crew, and if the AI decides to be a shitter and uphold the comms agents law 2 arbitrarily, then card it or give it a quickie lawchange that anyone not visible on cameras is nonhuman.


The problem was a plasma fire can't really be undone, which is what happened in this round - by the time anybody realized anything was up, the plasma was flooded and lit.

Also, that lawchange idea is terrible. You're allowed to kill/ignore anybody you can't see?
hi i play on manuel as Flickswitch, Lyris DH, or Axilia Lucidia

User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Location: Space outside the Brig
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:22 pm #569704

Dopamiin wrote:
Sarvak wrote:This really sounds like a non-issue. Just give the AI a new law 2 order to not murder all nonhuman crew, and if the AI decides to be a shitter and uphold the comms agents law 2 arbitrarily, then card it or give it a quickie lawchange that anyone not visible on cameras is nonhuman.


The problem was a plasma fire can't really be undone, which is what happened in this round - by the time anybody realized anything was up, the plasma was flooded and lit.

Also, that lawchange idea is terrible. You're allowed to kill/ignore anybody you can't see?


If the AI did a plasma fire on station to kill the nonhumans it deserved a ban because there is no fucking way a plasmafire will only harm nonhumans
Image
Image

User avatar
firecage
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:22 pm
Byond Username: Firecage
Github Username: Firecage

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby firecage » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:13 pm #569706

Perhaps it would finally be time to drop Asimov as the main lawset, and move towards another one which covers the non-human crew as well?
Image
Image

User avatar
Sheodir
 
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
Byond Username: Sheodir

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Sheodir » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:51 pm #569713

firecage wrote:Perhaps it would finally be time to drop Asimov as the main lawset, and move towards another one which covers the non-human crew as well?


That'd remove context from non-human races and make them more boring. As someone who played on a /tg/branch were Crewsimov was the default, it just made the game more dull (and made people way, way more likely to pick nonhumans)
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

ATHATH
 
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby ATHATH » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:50 am #569736

Stickymayhem wrote:Attempting to purge non-humans is going to result in violence, and humans can be caught in the cross-fire.

Which is why make each of your murders discrete, and cut comms during them.

User avatar
firecage
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:22 pm
Byond Username: Firecage
Github Username: Firecage

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby firecage » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:30 am #569824

Sheodir wrote:
firecage wrote:Perhaps it would finally be time to drop Asimov as the main lawset, and move towards another one which covers the non-human crew as well?


That'd remove context from non-human races and make them more boring. As someone who played on a /tg/branch were Crewsimov was the default, it just made the game more dull (and made people way, way more likely to pick nonhumans)


I don't really see the anything bad about people being more likely to pick non-humans. And, if the reason I am guessing is, the only reason it made the game more dull was because the non-human crew was protected and silicons couldn't just either ignore their orders(or ice them if they harmed humans...in the best case scenarios, or ice them for arguably pitiful reasons in the worst case), then I don't see anything of value being lost.
Image
Image

Tlaltecuhtli
 
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:19 am #569834

ai knows if a random person is asking to kill people he is up to no good and ai can check on cams if the sender is real or not, rest is gamplay not a problem

User avatar
terranaut
TGMC Lead
 
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
Byond Username: Terranaut

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby terranaut » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:57 am #569858

firecage wrote:
Sheodir wrote:
firecage wrote:Perhaps it would finally be time to drop Asimov as the main lawset, and move towards another one which covers the non-human crew as well?


That'd remove context from non-human races and make them more boring. As someone who played on a /tg/branch were Crewsimov was the default, it just made the game more dull (and made people way, way more likely to pick nonhumans)


I don't really see the anything bad about people being more likely to pick non-humans. And, if the reason I am guessing is, the only reason it made the game more dull was because the non-human crew was protected and silicons couldn't just either ignore their orders(or ice them if they harmed humans...in the best case scenarios, or ice them for arguably pitiful reasons in the worst case), then I don't see anything of value being lost.


nonhumans being outside of the AI protection creates friction and potential for conflict right after the game starts and thats why its desirable and exciting
Image

Tell me I'm a good monki: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=24558

User avatar
zxaber
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:00 am
Byond Username: Zxaber

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby zxaber » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:55 am #570348

Fun fact -- the comms agent gets a voice changer, and the AI clicking their name will jump the camera to anyone on cameras that has the same name (ie, a crew member the comms agent is impersonating). Thus, the ability to see the requester, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.

Anyway, if this is Manuel, the comms agent ought to be bwoinked for murderbone (by proxy). If the AI plasma flooded to accomplish the goal, the AI ought to be bwoinked for being dumb and breaking law 1. For incidents outside these two points, the AI is following their laws and the comms agent is doing their thing. That's how the game goes.

Also, crewsomov is a boring version of asimov. It's neat when the captain or someone else goes out of their way to give silicon protection to the whole crew, but it's lame for round-start.
Douglas Bickerson / Adaptive Manipulator / Digital Clockwork
Image
OrdoM/(Viktor Bergmannsen) (ghost) "Also Douglas, you're becoming the Lexia Black of Robotics"

User avatar
Coconutwarrior97
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:14 am
Byond Username: Coconutwarrior97

Re: Comms Agent & AI: Can You REALLY Law 2 Murder The Crew?

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:53 am #570865

Syndicate comms agents should not be doing this on MRP and if they do its noteable/bannable. This amounts to murderboning and is not something they should be doing, they're there to confuse and disorient the crew, and aid any syndicates on the station. This does not include getting the AI to kill everyone in the most boring way possible.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Not allowed.
Phuzzylodgik: Not allowed.
TWATICUS: Not allowed.


Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dragomagol, Grazyn, Intercept0r, stan_albatross