/tg/Station 13

In my opinion admins should hold people with jobs of great conseqence to a certain standard eg sec shouldn't be allowed break into places (with their tided tools coff coff), engineers shouldn't be allowed fuck off to do random stuff without AT LEAST setting up solaris etc etc
E: argh bedposting

you forgot the [MRP] tag in your post sir

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:you forgot the [MRP] tag in your post sir

Piss off

Do that on Manuel. Most normal people already do their job on other servers.

if that was the case then it wouldnt be a problem if the rule was implemented on all servers?

"we dont need that rule we already abide by it on integrity" is definitely a "yeah okay" moment, although rumor has it you use paramedic's access for validhunting so i could see why you personally might not want the rule .

Tarchonvaagh wrote:In my opinion admins should hold people with jobs of great conseqence to a certain standard eg sec shouldn't be allowed break into places (with their tided tools coff coff), engineers shouldn't be allowed fuck off to do random stuff without AT LEAST setting up solaris etc etc
E: argh bedposting

No. People failing/being unfit at their job is part of the game. Let it be handled IC, with demotes, escalation, etc. Trying to police this will cause people to not even want to try certain roles fearing a bwoink for not doing their job "efficiently enough".

Dumb dumb dumb idea, get outta here.

Agux909 wrote:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:In my opinion admins should hold people with jobs of great conseqence to a certain standard eg sec shouldn't be allowed break into places (with their tided tools coff coff), engineers shouldn't be allowed fuck off to do random stuff without AT LEAST setting up solaris etc etc
E: argh bedposting

No. People failing/being unfit at their job is part of the game. Let it be handled IC, with demotes, escalation, etc. Trying to police this will cause people to not even want to try certain roles fearing a bwoink for not doing their job "efficiently enough".

Dumb dumb dumb idea, get outta here.

I don't think he meant doing their job poorly, but rather choosing the job just for the tools it gives you and ignoring its role completely. Like someone that gets engineering just for easier access to hacking tools and who doesn't even try to help the station by doing engineering stuff.

People being incompetent is one thing, but picking a role and not playing it should indeed be punished in MRP.

That would already fall under the rules of MRP. If you're an engineer that only uses the job to hack doors around and stir shit as non-antag, you will get bwoinked for it. There's no need for more specificity in the rules about this, because it still falls under "being a dick". Now, for example, if you're an engineer that only stays at the bar without contributing anything to the round, I don't think that should be bwoinked, but solved ICly.

Agux909 wrote:That would already fall under the rules of MRP. If you're an engineer that only uses the job to hack doors around and stir shit as non-antag, you will get bwoinked for it. There's no need for more specifity in the rules about this, because it still falls under "being a dick".

I have had contrary experiences with things of this nature on Manuel to the point that I eventually quit playing there, trying to get the crew held to the spirit or even letter of the RP rules was like pulling teeth.

Then this has more to do with the rules not being enforced/ enforced incorrectly than with the lack of more specific rules. The rules are there, and new rules like this will start making Manuel to lean towards HRP, which considering the other servers, will be an even harder standard to be achieved and held up.

However notice how the OP of this thread refers to adding this new policy on ALL SERVERS, and not only in MRP servers. Tarchonvaagh might want to enlight us more about their reasoning behind the ominous OP, since they obviously weren't considering only Manuel on this.

That also is already in the rules, for all the servers, just almost never enforced, lol.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Rule_5_Precedents.

4. Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed. Deliberate incompetence or malice can result in warnings or bans, depending on severity. Example would be a chemist constantly abusing the position to make space lube and lubing hallways, they may be warned and then jobbanned if further abuse happens.

Yeah, these rules might not be enforced as they should be. And things in a round might not be reported as often as you would think. But that doesn't deny the fact that the rules exist.

Maybe open a new thread here bashing the admin team on how poorly they are doing their job? Or become an admin yourself? Dunno.

Nah.

Just want to point out that we already do ban engineers who make a habit of ignoring power and fucking off, especially if they fuck off to space, without making any effort to do their job, if it's something they do repeatedly

However most of the time a simple talking to about the engineers in question will stop the problem hence you don't see many bans for it (but there are a few)

Tarchon you missed the MRP tag I know you don't like Manuel and want to turn Terry into MRP but seriously just robust tiding sec on LRP servers and bully them like anyone else???

Now that I think about it the only "consequential" jobs are engineering most heads and security
Actually, this post inspired the thread, it basically made me realize how common it already is

If we're talking about people just not doing their job, it's a IC issue. Sure, it's annoying to have one immediate dead weight member of the team who isn't interested in doing the bare minimum work required to progress the department but the very existence of a work shy shitter provides sources of conflict and opportunity for others. It provides ample reason for a Head of Staff to demote a worker, or if the station is effected could drag the entire department into dispute with the rest of the station. Engineering hasn't set up the power and the station is starting to black out? Might want to brig all the engineers until you can understand why they aren't doing the bare minimum to maintain the station. HoP can recruit people into these departments to resolve issues and in turn open opportunities for antagonists to achieve their goals. Chaos for the most part is good, so long as it's not outright malicious grief. That's where the rule came from:

4. Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed. Deliberate incompetence or malice can result in warnings or bans, depending on severity. Example would be a chemist constantly abusing the position to make space lube and lubing hallways, they may be warned and then jobbanned if further abuse happens.

In my understanding this rule isn't designed to punish people who aren't doing their job, heads of staff not doing their bare minimum is already covered in another rule. This rule is more about people who aren't antagonists who pick a role to proactively make things worse for others. The example used is a chemist shitting up the station, to fit the thread another example would be a engineer deliberately fucking up the SM cooling or the power grid. Same can be said for engineers who just go around spamming constructions to block sections of the station to grief. I wouldn't use this rule against people simply not doing their job in favor of some other project, rather use it against people who are abusing the role to the detriment of others. The minor inconvenience of a worker not doing work is something the department can and should deal with however they see fit. A player rolling just to grief should be warned then banned if they don't shape up.

rule 4 should cover the case of someone using a job to greytide with greater access, and it likely does, admins just need to use it to enforce it a couple of times.

I mean if you tide hard enough it's basically griff so you're not wrong.

Cobby wrote:if that was the case then it wouldnt be a problem if the rule was implemented on all servers?

"we dont need that rule we already abide by it on integrity" is definitely a "yeah okay" moment, although rumor has it you use paramedic's access for validhunting so i could see why you personally might not want the rule .

The role is centered around helping the crew and roaming the maint. If people aren't dying, then you have time for other things.

I think you might be thinking of a green haired catgirl.

The only paramain is Nilla Steele who rushes gamer gear etc to validhunt. Maybe the hair is blue not green. Hopefully Uomo91 doesn't beef with me.

Job standards are already in effect for security, but those are measured with a compromise towards their safety as a metaprotection in escalation. This same metaprotection is also flawed as hell and makes for some very fucked escalation situations, resulting in a lot of meta level shoehorned problems that detract from the game (antag sec being maybe the biggest one and that saw a revival recently with bugs in dynamic, but also antags becoming security in some way).

Standards for other jobs are a lot harder to police since what constitutes negligence to just poor decision making should be entirely a player level handled problem. Obviously allowing the players to decided how best to handle this only feeds further into valid/not valid scenarios where heads of staff are murdered for disciplinary action, among other lovely elements of escalation, but at least it avoids hovering over players for being ineptitude in an unfun manner. Unless, of course, they do it excessively, which as oranges already pointed out, we do actually punish for.

Really, any current concerns for player level policing of ability could be easily handled by alterations to escalation policy.

Complimenting Anne's Paramedic comment from above, spoilering because not all that relevant to the main discussion.

NecromancerAnne wrote:Standards for other jobs are a lot harder to police since what constitutes negligence to just poor decision making should be entirely a player level handled problem. Obviously allowing the players to decided how best to handle this only feeds further into valid/not valid scenarios where heads of staff are murdered for disciplinary action, among other lovely elements of escalation, but at least it avoids hovering over players for being ineptitude in an unfun manner. Unless, of course, they do it excessively, which as oranges already pointed out, we do actually punish for.

Really, any current concerns for player level policing of ability could be easily handled by alterations to escalation policy.

It escapes me how "don't take a useful, limited job slot (which is most things outside of assistant and the majority of service) to be an idiot" would be profoundly heavyhanded or subjective policy, doesn't seem like rocket science.

Amount of times I've seen atmos techs doing atmos things, compared to the amount of time I see them just take it for the access and the fire axe... Mysterious.

It's also mysterious how you missed or deliberately excluded the bit immediately after where I agreed with oranges and acknowledged anyone who is taking a role to tide is not going to be safe from repercussion.

What I'm also saying is that ineptitude is an equally valid element of the game experience. If you want a head role to be handled with skill, and you have that skill, you only have yourself to blame when it is handled poorly if you yourself do not take the role.

I'ma be real with y'all if everyone was really good at their jobs this game would get boring fast.

pugie wrote:I'ma be real with y'all if everyone was really good at their jobs this game would get boring fast.

There's a sweetspot of competence where you're adequate enough to get a task done if you work at it, but not perfectly optimal at it. In an ideal world everyone is here and it allows for the station to function whilst also allowing for shenanigans. Unfortunately you cannot enforce players to be exactly good enough at a job, but that's not what this thread is asking anyways. This thread is more "at least try to do your job."
But again, people slacking off can also be a good thing in the long run. Too many variables to know for sure

We don't think there should be any rule changes related to this and when issues relating to this do pop up they tend to be handled in a case by case basis, primarily by Rule 4.
Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: No action, I think any outlying cases should just be handled by the rules we already have in place.
Domitius: No action.
Naloac: No action.