Respawn

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Would you like to see public servers offering respawn mechanic that is not robotics/xenobio?

Yes
5
18%
No
23
82%
Abstain
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 28

Ivuchnu
 
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Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:52 am #571396

I believe this is more about code than half-baked feature for which config option exists. Does "norespawn" even have cooldown on respawn when disabled? It looked like purely testing feature or something you'd enable as admin during sandbox/all traitors badmemery.

Don't you love dying to something at the beginning of round that gonna go for couple of hours (hello Manuel) with no good ghost roles available? I propose if you die, you are given an option to join station using arrival shuttle as new character once some long time passes, something like 30 minutes.

Pros:
  • You are not effectively banned from round if you fall down chasm (can we unbullshit them?) or die similarly stupid death, particularly when involving you losing body, being off sensors or suffering medbay troubles like ethereal failed battery.
  • Doing assassination objective does not automatically make you biggest dick in the world.
  • You don't have to call shuttle for OOC consideration of "ghosts need to play".

Cons:
  • Something something metagame. If that's really a problem, dead could be booted to lobby for those 30 minutes or until revived and observegang ghosts wanting to play would have to yeet self into lobby for 30 minutes. You already can kill self and have medbay revive you for muh metagame.

What are your opinions?
Last edited by Ivuchnu on Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Flatulent
 
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Re: Respawn

Postby Flatulent » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:53 am #571398

it’s not coding feedback
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Re: Respawn

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:55 am #571399

i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:56 am #571400

it’s not coding feedback

It's about changing "OOC - Respawn" feature. Currently we have that disabled and in no way I see it being enabled without code changes.
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PKPenguin321
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Re: Respawn

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:56 am #571406

Ivuchnu wrote:
it’s not coding feedback

It's about changing "OOC - Respawn" feature. Currently we have that disabled and in no way I see it being enabled without code changes.

Educate yourself on what config options are and how they work. The code deliberately leaves the enabling/disabling of certain mechanics up to the server operators.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:54 am #571415

I am aware of what config options are. I am convinced that in current state this "norespawn" will never be disabled on public server. It needs code change to become viable.
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Re: Respawn

Postby trollbreeder » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:26 am #571417

Ivuchnu wrote:I am aware of what config options are. I am convinced that in current state this "norespawn" will never be disabled on public server. It needs code change to become viable.

Then why is this in policy discussion?
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:32 am #571418

Ask fruit.
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oranges
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Re: Respawn

Postby oranges » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:33 am #571419

we won't change it without the admins ever committing to enabling respawn which they will never ever do, so it's a policy discussion and a fruitless one at that.

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Stickymayhem
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Re: Respawn

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:38 am #571421

oranges wrote:we won't change it without the admins ever committing to enabling respawn which they will never ever do, so it's a policy discussion and a fruitless one at that.


but you're here
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:41 am #571422

Created poll to gauge interest in respawn mechanic being there.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Sheodir » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:33 pm #571424



No.

Dying is part of the game. It is part of what makes it dynamic and fun - because when you try something risky or fight for your life, you are literally fighting for your right to affect the shift any further. It's what causes gravitas to rescue operations of spaced bodies, what gives proper context to those rare moments you rez someone 40 minutes after they're dead. If the game has a true respawn, why bother?
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:44 pm #571426

If the game has a true respawn, why bother?

Victim is back to game quicker and may tell details about their death.
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Sheodir
 
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Re: Respawn

Postby Sheodir » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:49 pm #571427

Ivuchnu wrote:
If the game has a true respawn, why bother?

Victim is back to game quicker and may tell details about their death.

>tell details
That's metagaming.
>back to the game quicker
Irrelevant. It still cheapens the experience and gravity of death within the shift.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm #571429

It's not metagaming if you remember your death. We have no "clone memory disorder" type of rules. And I do agree with Space Panda's "It's a roleplaying game, not a competitive one" take on "cheapens death".
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Re: Respawn

Postby Sheodir » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:57 pm #571430

Ivuchnu wrote:It's not metagaming if you remember your death. We have no "clone memory disorder" type of rules. And I do agree with Space Panda's "It's a roleplaying game, not a competitive one" take on "cheapens death".

On the earlier point, it is metagaming in essence. The entire point of metagaming is not using shift information in an unfair way. We don't have clone memory disorder, which means that yes, part of this is making sure the body isn't found and brought back. But a respawn has no fucking counter. I don't understand this argument. How is saying respawn will be abused to make victims talk a good thing?

On the latter, that also makes no sense. Death is supremely cheap on competitive games. You died, you respawn 15 seconds later tops, or in a Battle Royale just roll a new lobby. It's because this is a roleplaying game that death matters so much. It means there is genuine fear when you're about to be taken off the shift, the fear that person you killed might wait God knows how long for a respawn just for a chance to get back at you is real, it causes the entire life of your roleplaying character to have its own weight. It's what makes risking yourself for dumb gimmicks or plays have actual meaning, because if everyone gets a bunch of retries on it, who cares.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:00 pm #571431

But sometimes, you just die. Not in fair way, not in way that enables RP. Stuff like chasms. How you are supposed to roleplay with chasm?
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Re: Respawn

Postby Sheodir » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:04 pm #571432

Ivuchnu wrote:But sometimes, you just die. Not in fair way, not in way that enables RP. Stuff like chasms. How you are supposed to roleplay with chasm?

Sometimes, life itself is unfair. Dying in an unfair manner is a pain, but it can offer an interesting context if you are brought back from those unfair deaths.

On chasms, they're a Miner thing that I'll be frank, I was never that much of a fan of to begin with. I suppose the point was to add a reason to desire floating/flight but lava already does that. I think it'd be cool if Lavaland just had a hellish sub Z-level chasms made you fall down to whilst breaking both your legs (with a safe way down), but that's another policy discussion.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:10 pm #571433

How is saying respawn will be abused to make victims talk a good thing?

No, if you respawn, you are new character. Like posi. Then you are not allowed to know anything not coming from that new life. I see no way respawn actually enables people to metagame their killer without breaking rules.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Agux909 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:17 pm #571436

Ivuchnu wrote:But sometimes, you just die. Not in fair way, not in way that enables RP. Stuff like chasms. How you are supposed to roleplay with chasm?


Literally rule 10 my dude.
I would give my thoughts on why I think it's a bad idea but Sheo has them mostly covered.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:19 pm #571437

I think existence of rule 10 should be brought to scrutiny. What it's purpose, even? You are already not allowed to metagrudge your killer or ick ock "John Doe is traitor" style.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Agux909 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:22 pm #571439

Ok make another thread then.
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Re: Respawn

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:45 pm #571451

Ivuchnu wrote:It's not metagaming if you remember your death. We have no "clone memory disorder" type of rules. And I do agree with Space Panda's "It's a roleplaying game, not a competitive one" take on "cheapens death".
Ivuchnu wrote:
How is saying respawn will be abused to make victims talk a good thing?

No, if you respawn, you are new character. Like posi. Then you are not allowed to know anything not coming from that new life. I see no way respawn actually enables people to metagame their killer without breaking rules.

Jesus christ at least keep the bad position consistent.

Also, this is the most poorly disguised "i ded remove chasms" thread I've seen disguised as a "remove rule 10 and also enable respawns" thread.

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Re: Respawn

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:04 pm #571453

Death is supposed to mean something.

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Re: Respawn

Postby Space Panda » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:24 pm #571454

ITT: \tg16/ dumb-dumbs can't roleplay a new character without metagaming with their previous knowledge

just be a good fucking roleplayer

edit: same principle as pretending not to know how to do surgery stuff when you're playing as a bartender. You HAVE the knowledge, but you choose not to use it, you pretend you don't have it.

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Re: Respawn

Postby Flatulent » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:35 pm #571455

I’m going to spawn camp people so they don’t metagrudge me when I’m antag so it’s ok
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Re: Respawn

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:37 pm #571456

Just because some people are capable doesnt mean everyone is. Oftentimes it will probably just be abused. This has no place on a low rp place like tg.

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Re: Respawn

Postby Space Panda » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:46 pm #571457

wesoda25 wrote:Just because some people are capable doesnt mean everyone is. Oftentimes it will probably just be abused. This has no place on a low rp place like tg.


then that shouldn't be as much of a problem in Manuel, since it's mrp and players usually try to roleplay more

also, it would make even more sense to exist on Manuel, since rounds are way too long.

I do believe there should be a timer though. At least 15~20 minutes before you can return to the game, so living or dying doesn't become less meaningful.

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Re: Respawn

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:50 pm #571458

just server hop if u dont want to be a ghost lol

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Re: Respawn

Postby Space Panda » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:02 pm #571459

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:just server hop if u dont want to be a ghost lol


what if I'm a MRP player who doesn't like playing on LRP servers?

what if I'm european and don't want to play with high ping since there's only Terry on EU?

jesus why do I even respond to this fucking moron

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Re: Respawn

Postby Sheodir » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:11 pm #571460

Space Panda wrote:then that shouldn't be as much of a problem in Manuel, since it's mrp and players usually try to roleplay more

also, it would make even more sense to exist on Manuel, since rounds are way too long.

I do believe there should be a timer though. At least 15~20 minutes before you can return to the game, so living or dying doesn't become less meaningful.


15 or 20 minutes is just a bit over max brig time, and nowhere near enough for death to remain meaningful as it currently is in the game. Whilst manuel rounds are long, they also have by far a lower lethality rate and very dedicated Paramedic teams to bringing people back.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Armhulen » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:34 pm #571462

Space Panda wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:just server hop if u dont want to be a ghost lol


what if I'm a MRP player who doesn't like playing on LRP servers?

what if I'm european and don't want to play with high ping since there's only Terry on EU?

jesus why do I even respond to this fucking moron

We have 6 servers, two are EU, two are MRP. these very harsh restrictions only if you demand both at the same time. On top of that, nothing stops you from doing other things between rounds if you truly feel locked out and breaks are very good for this kind of game.

When I first joined in 2015, there were nearly zero ways beyond cloning to come back so if your body get dumped you were pretty fucked. With only two servers server hopping was the shit and dying on both from antagonists basically meant get fucked and stop playing. We've made massive strides from that point with ghost roles (a bit overdone actually) and now there's never a situation where you cannot do anything while dead AND a crazy amount of servers to hop to just leads me to the conclusion that tlal is right in saying just server hop. TL;DR shouldn't gut our game design so you can let Campbell die.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Screemonster » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:26 pm #571465

Ivuchnu wrote:I am aware of what config options are. I am convinced that in current state this "norespawn" will never be disabled on public server. It needs code change to become viable.

so basically what you want is for the coders to override the headmins by turning a config option into a hardcoded value, forcing everyone who runs a tg codebase to play it that way on all servers, because that's the option you personally want

fuck, and I cannot express this enough, off

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Re: Respawn

Postby Armhulen » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:29 pm #571466

yeah i guess what this comes down to is that nobody else wants it else admins would tick it
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Re: Respawn

Postby Ivuchnu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:00 pm #571469

config option into a hardcoded value

NO. Our current implementation of respawn does not seem to even enforce wait time. It's trash. I am not talking about forcing server admins having abandon_mob() feature enabled at all. Once idea explained in starting post is implemented in code, it still should be a config option.

Timer definitely must be there. I never proposed using existing respawn implementation at all.
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Re: Respawn

Postby Screemonster » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:25 pm #571478

Ivuchnu wrote:
config option into a hardcoded value

NO. Our current implementation of respawn does not seem to even enforce wait time. It's trash. I am not talking about forcing server admins having abandon_mob() feature enabled at all. Once idea explained in starting post is implemented in code, it still should be a config option.

Timer definitely must be there. I never proposed using existing respawn implementation at all.

then code it yourself lmao just rip the code out of a hrp server that has it enabled

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Re: Respawn

Postby Armhulen » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:45 pm #571481

Screemonster wrote:
Ivuchnu wrote:
config option into a hardcoded value

NO. Our current implementation of respawn does not seem to even enforce wait time. It's trash. I am not talking about forcing server admins having abandon_mob() feature enabled at all. Once idea explained in starting post is implemented in code, it still should be a config option.

Timer definitely must be there. I never proposed using existing respawn implementation at all.

then code it yourself lmao just rip the code out of a hrp server that has it enabled

Don't give bad advice, oranges will not allow random config changes/additions unless head admins Express that they're interested in using that option
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Re: Respawn

Postby cacogen » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:29 pm #571875

You should be able to respawn using a different character slot after ten minutes. Job slots shouldn't remain occupied by permanently dead characters. Good luck convincing people of this though. I wrote an explanation of my reasons but I'm not good enough at writing to post it without taking the time to edit it.

Suffice to say it'd either fix or ease the following problems:
- Inability to reach job goals despite lengthy attempts over multiple rounds
- Uneventful rounds due to large amounts of dead players
- Large amounts of server population dead for large parts of rounds
- Uneventful rounds due to lack of antag willingness to kill because of player reaction
- Uneventful rounds due to lack of deadliness from nerfs motivated by present consequences of death
I'll probably clean this post up a bit later
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Re: Respawn

Postby Flatulent » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:27 pm #571932

how can you murderbone if people respawn
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Re: Respawn

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:44 am #571943

Why does everyone assume every bad take has a place on Manuel. Like, seriously, the game runs pretty okay for LRP and MRP, we really don't need drastic differences in config or code for either server. I'm actually more annoyed Manuels config is used to push badly designed game modes under the rug rather than acknowledge they are bad game modes.

Shit like this is the last thing you'd want to see.

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Re: Respawn

Postby Zybwivcz » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:02 am #572333

Give some way for ghosts to register their interest in being spawned in as something and a mildly IC way for people on the station to tell, like a crystal ball in the chapel that glows with an intensity proportional to the number of non-AFK ghosts who have activated it. Or maybe something in science would be more useful.

There's a notification that informs the station when someone wants to be a pAI, there should be some way for roboticists and xenobiologists to know if making borg shells and posibrains or sentient xenobio stuff is going to be a waste of time or if there are ghosts sitting around who want to take the role.

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Re: Respawn

Postby Screemonster » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:35 am #572345

add a freely-joinable ghostrole at centcom where you set up tower defence to prepare for when the shuttle arrives

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Re: Respawn

Postby cacogen » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:59 am #572445

Flatulent wrote:how can you murderbone if people respawn

you can kill more ppl

NecromancerAnne wrote:Shit like this is the last thing you'd want to see.

Why is it?

Screemonster wrote:add a freely-joinable ghostrole at centcom where you set up tower defence to prepare for when the shuttle arrives

A tower defence ghost role to fuck people up sounds fun so you will have to make it have zero relevancy to the actual round

Zybwivcz wrote:There's a notification that informs the station when someone wants to be a pAI, there should be some way for roboticists and xenobiologists to know if making borg shells and posibrains or sentient xenobio stuff is going to be a waste of time or if there are ghosts sitting around who want to take the role.

This is a good idea but it sidesteps the actual issue
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Re: Respawn

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:09 am #574902

We have no interest in implementing respawning.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: No, dying is part of the game and it has meaning because you can't respawn, this is not something I want to see at all.
Phuzzylodgik: No.
TWATICUS: No.


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