On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

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Sheodir
 
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On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Sheodir » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:26 am #571770

Clowns are supposed to be funny. Being minor annoyances is fine, but in Manuel getting synthetic peels spammed everywhere is both not funny and could be classified as just grief against the entire station. It's hellish to deal with, it's not funny, it legit griefs other situations (I lost a patient as a Paramedic due to hallways being nothing but peels) and is just griefing the entire station past usability. This shouldn't be allowed on Manuel, nay, in any fucking server. It's equivalent in my eyes to destroying a section of the station but it's "ok" because nobody died.
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.



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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby remanseptim » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:19 am #571787

go to the coders and ask them to introduce a countermeasure like a banana vacuum the janny can acquire
or just beat the shit out of the clown for being an annoying asshole
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Kryson » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:06 am #571789

remanseptim wrote:go to the coders and ask them to introduce a countermeasure like a banana vacuum the janny can acquire
or just beat the shit out of the clown for being an annoying asshole


The countermeasures exist.

You can either:

Sweep them into a pile / into a disposal bin with the broom.

Spray them with acid.

The broom is perfect for this.

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Jack7D1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:49 am #571790

You can't sweep them easily without slipping.
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:56 am #571792

dont galoshes make u slip proof?

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Jack7D1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:59 am #571793

Not from bananas
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Sheodir » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:11 pm #571798

Kryson wrote:
remanseptim wrote:go to the coders and ask them to introduce a countermeasure like a banana vacuum the janny can acquire
or just beat the shit out of the clown for being an annoying asshole


The countermeasures exist.

You can either:

Sweep them into a pile / into a disposal bin with the broom.

Spray them with acid.

The broom is perfect for this.


Having a counter is largely irrelevant, specially one this specific. There is a counter for siphoning all the air off the station, or flooding it with plasma, or straight up lagging the game out with radio bouncing.

The issue is that synthetic peel spam is on the level of the things above of making the station basically impossible to traverse, has no real benefit to the game, and is basically just plain ol' mass grief that we consider 'ok' because it's a clown and bananas. There's a point where instead of being a clown prank it just becomes annoying grief, and if clowns have been noted for slipping Sec during a chase they should be noted for making the entire station impossible to walk on.

PS: If you think I'm exaggerating and talking about a dozen peels, you haven't seen what i'm talking about. I've legit seen clowns fill every square inch of main hallways and most ofmaint with synth peels due to how easy they are to spam.

remanseptim wrote:go to the coders and ask them to introduce a countermeasure like a banana vacuum the janny can acquire
or just beat the shit out of the clown for being an annoying asshole


As said, counters are notwithstanding to the discussion, hence why I made it Policy Discussion.

I'm not talking haha a few peels here and there, I'm talking "basically fucking unplayable".

The only code change I'd ask for is making synth peels harder to make if not straight up remove them.
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby remanseptim » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:53 pm #571807

Sheodir wrote:The only code change I'd ask for is making synth peels harder to make if not straight up remove them.

i personally think this should go off the golden rule of 'act like an antag get treated like one'. if you murdered the clown for doing this shit there isn't an admin in the world who would ban you.
i think looking for more reasons people can get banned is the wrong approach anyways. chaos can be balanced with chaos, after all, you just gotta give the players the tools to cancel each other out. straight-up banning stuff isn't the way go.
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Sheodir » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:27 pm #571808

remanseptim wrote:
Sheodir wrote:The only code change I'd ask for is making synth peels harder to make if not straight up remove them.

i personally think this should go off the golden rule of 'act like an antag get treated like one'. if you murdered the clown for doing this shit there isn't an admin in the world who would ban you.
i think looking for more reasons people can get banned is the wrong approach anyways. chaos can be balanced with chaos, after all, you just gotta give the players the tools to cancel each other out. straight-up banning stuff isn't the way go.

I agree a lot of the time, but I'm less so outright seeking bans (despite my words) and more wanting to change the perception of what is acceptable behavior. Whilst there are, yes, "IC ways to deal with it", the issue isn't that, or getting banned for dealing with it. It's similar to stealing a key item from another job for no reason - there are plenty of IC ways of dealing with it that won't get you noted or banned, but we chose to tell people off for it anyway because people doing it every shift is boring and the threat of IC retribution isn't enough of a deterrent.

Synthpeel spam isn't funny, it slows the station to a halt, and even if you lynch the clown it doesn't fucking go away or is any easier to deal with. The only thing that can deal with it is a broom, and it'll still take long as hell to do it.
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby ShibaInuLord » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:25 pm #571811

You can literally only get synthpeels from one ruin in lavaland, and they require bananium as fuel. Brooms have a second function when you press use key and they sweep anything in front of you, it shouldnt take longer than like one minute to clear out a hallway
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Sheodir » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:48 pm #571812

ShibaInuLord wrote:You can literally only get synthpeels from one ruin in lavaland, and they require bananium as fuel. Brooms have a second function when you press use key and they sweep anything in front of you, it shouldnt take longer than like one minute to clear out a hallway


Sheodir wrote:Having a counter is largely irrelevant, specially one this specific. There is a counter for siphoning all the air off the station, or flooding it with plasma, or straight up lagging the game out with radio bouncing.

The issue is that synthetic peel spam is on the level of the things above of making the station basically impossible to traverse, has no real benefit to the game, and is basically just plain ol' mass grief that we consider 'ok' because it's a clown and bananas. There's a point where instead of being a clown prank it just becomes annoying grief, and if clowns have been noted for slipping Sec during a chase they should be noted for making the entire station impossible to walk on.


A broom is also not exactly an easily available item everywhere on station, although you CAN make them in autolathes, most people don't know that. As for how hard synthpeels are to obtain, supposedly, you can't go a single fucking night without seeing them spammed everywhere on Manuel by some clown or another, so I'm calling that difficulty into question - however, even if it is that hard to find, it's irrelevant to the discussion, which is moreso "what level of gried is too much as a clown".

In my eyes, this goes past "mild inconvenience" and moreso into "jesus fucking christ I can't play" territory. We called the shuttle on it last night because even with a Jannie with a broom the clown just kept doing rounds around the whole station to the point people just gave up.
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby remanseptim » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:15 pm #571818

Sheodir wrote:A broom is also not exactly an easily available item everywhere on station, although you CAN make them in autolathes, most people don't know that. As for how hard synthpeels are to obtain, supposedly, you can't go a single fucking night without seeing them spammed everywhere on Manuel by some clown or another, so I'm calling that difficulty into question - however, even if it is that hard to find, it's irrelevant to the discussion, which is moreso "what level of gried is too much as a clown".

In my eyes, this goes past "mild inconvenience" and moreso into "jesus fucking christ I can't play" territory. We called the shuttle on it last night because even with a Jannie with a broom the clown just kept doing rounds around the whole station to the point people just gave up.

this seems like your frustration should be more directed at an ignorant playerbase than the person antagonizing said ignorant playerbase
brooms make an excellent counter to whatever shit is spewed all over the floor, so the logical next step is to educate your fellow spacemen on all the shit you can print from lathes.
it's crazy, like 50% of the playerbase has no clue how basic mechanics like autolathes work. even less know about imprinters.
i think this problem, and many others, can be fixed by educating people.
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby FloranOtten » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:07 pm #571825

remanseptim wrote:
Sheodir wrote:A broom is also not exactly an easily available item everywhere on station, although you CAN make them in autolathes, most people don't know that. As for how hard synthpeels are to obtain, supposedly, you can't go a single fucking night without seeing them spammed everywhere on Manuel by some clown or another, so I'm calling that difficulty into question - however, even if it is that hard to find, it's irrelevant to the discussion, which is moreso "what level of gried is too much as a clown".

In my eyes, this goes past "mild inconvenience" and moreso into "jesus fucking christ I can't play" territory. We called the shuttle on it last night because even with a Jannie with a broom the clown just kept doing rounds around the whole station to the point people just gave up.

this seems like your frustration should be more directed at an ignorant playerbase than the person antagonizing said ignorant playerbase
brooms make an excellent counter to whatever shit is spewed all over the floor, so the logical next step is to educate your fellow spacemen on all the shit you can print from lathes.
it's crazy, like 50% of the playerbase has no clue how basic mechanics like autolathes work. even less know about imprinters.
i think this problem, and many others, can be fixed by educating people.


Everyone carries internals at all times. Does that mean an airborne griff virus is fine?
Ignore is a thing. Does that mean OOC spam should be okay?

Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's suddenly okay. The fact that you need to specifically go to an autolathe and do a mass effort to clean it all is bullshit. Never mind the fact that the clown will just walk by again and repopulate the halls.
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby NoxVS » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:56 pm #571827

FloranOtten wrote:
remanseptim wrote:
Sheodir wrote:A broom is also not exactly an easily available item everywhere on station, although you CAN make them in autolathes, most people don't know that. As for how hard synthpeels are to obtain, supposedly, you can't go a single fucking night without seeing them spammed everywhere on Manuel by some clown or another, so I'm calling that difficulty into question - however, even if it is that hard to find, it's irrelevant to the discussion, which is moreso "what level of gried is too much as a clown".

In my eyes, this goes past "mild inconvenience" and moreso into "jesus fucking christ I can't play" territory. We called the shuttle on it last night because even with a Jannie with a broom the clown just kept doing rounds around the whole station to the point people just gave up.

this seems like your frustration should be more directed at an ignorant playerbase than the person antagonizing said ignorant playerbase
brooms make an excellent counter to whatever shit is spewed all over the floor, so the logical next step is to educate your fellow spacemen on all the shit you can print from lathes.
it's crazy, like 50% of the playerbase has no clue how basic mechanics like autolathes work. even less know about imprinters.
i think this problem, and many others, can be fixed by educating people.


Everyone carries internals at all times. Does that mean an airborne griff virus is fine?
Ignore is a thing. Does that mean OOC spam should be okay?

Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's suddenly okay. The fact that you need to specifically go to an autolathe and do a mass effort to clean it all is bullshit. Never mind the fact that the clown will just walk by again and repopulate the halls.

sounds like the crew needs to take matters into their own hands then and beat the clown to death
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:36 am #571851

FloranOtten wrote:Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's suddenly okay. The fact that you need to specifically go to an autolathe and do a mass effort to clean it all is bullshit. Never mind the fact that the clown will just walk by again and repopulate the halls.


the whole point of banarium is to "not" give it to clown, this is core ss13 mechanic and should be kept, if you think you cant handle it then rp a lynch mob on scooters and beat him with baseball bats or something

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby pugie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:56 am #571857

Problems like this don't need policy... just an IC solution. Make geese eat banana peels & not vomit them back up problem solved.
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Kryson » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:08 pm #571861

FloranOtten wrote:Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's suddenly okay. The fact that you need to specifically go to an autolathe and do a mass effort to clean it all is bullshit.


Well if it is too much to ask that you fix it yourself, you could ask the janitor could do his job. He has brooms in the custodial closet.

Or pay an assistant to do it.

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby cacogen » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:11 am #571962

pugie wrote:Problems like this don't need policy... just an IC solution. Make geese eat banana peels & not vomit them back up problem solved.

Exactly
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:54 pm #571978

What's the current precedent about clowns lubing hallways?
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:17 pm #571980

Agux909 wrote:What's the current precedent about clowns lubing hallways?

i did a cursory check of the headmin ruling page and the closest thing is slipping not being human harm, but like i said, just a quick search for keywords.
this seems like one of those issues a no fun allowed admin would rule 1 ban for though.
rule 1 moment
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:37 pm #571982

I feel this should be more of a rule 0 thing. Bluespace peels can be harmless but have a chance of killing someone by teleporting them to a vacuum tile, at which point an admin should intervene. The victim shouldn't hesitate ahelping it or seeking admins in discord if there is none currently on the round.

Of course, from the moment the clown starts being more of a global nuisance and a bane to the crew, they're open for IC consequences, and any ahelp from them for the resulting escalation should be taken as ban-baiting.

I'm against a final ruling for this.
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:51 pm #571986

Agux909 wrote:I feel this should be more of a rule 0 thing. Bluespace peels can be harmless but have a chance of killing someone by teleporting them to a vacuum tile, at which point an admin should intervene. The victim shouldn't hesitate ahelping it or seeking admins in discord if there is none currently on the round.

Of course, from the moment the clown starts being more of a global nuisance and a bane to the crew, they're open for IC consequences, and any ahelp from them for the resulting escalation should be taken as ban-baiting.

I'm against a final ruling for this.

clown should always be working to make themselves valid, otherwise they're a lame clown
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Sheodir » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:05 pm #571988

remanseptim wrote:
Agux909 wrote:I feel this should be more of a rule 0 thing. Bluespace peels can be harmless but have a chance of killing someone by teleporting them to a vacuum tile, at which point an admin should intervene. The victim shouldn't hesitate ahelping it or seeking admins in discord if there is none currently on the round.

Of course, from the moment the clown starts being more of a global nuisance and a bane to the crew, they're open for IC consequences, and any ahelp from them for the resulting escalation should be taken as ban-baiting.

I'm against a final ruling for this.

clown should always be working to make themselves valid, otherwise they're a lame clown

THIS is exactly the standard I fucking detest

we have a huge list on the clown page distinctly saying "your job isn't to be an asshole" but /tg/ culture has steadily made clown the "asshole" role
when it's minor inconveniences this is fine but when it is basically stalling the shift to a half for everyone else it is cancer
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:47 pm #571989

I don't think the clown should always be aiming to become valid, but I feel like the job is purposefully the one that has the most leeway for getting close to the line, and that's the main appeal for it. The station isn't a circus where there is kids and families to entertain. It's a shady, depressive and unsettling place in the middle of nowhere, in which some people sign up to work as clowns, not necessarily to make others laugh.

Don't missunderstand me, I don't want players using the job as an excuse for self-antag. But I think specially on the clown role, you can't expect such a final ruling about not being able to do certain stuff. Banana peels, regardless of their color or anomalous properties, are one of the main clown gimmicks. You can't expect a clown to not abuse them.

Now, non-antag clowns should still act restrained by rule 1, although smartly bending or having one foot at the other side of the line shouldn't be so damning for them. A non-antag clown killbaiting people is breaking rule 1 and should be punished, and so is one flooding the station with harmful or near-permanent disabling gasses.

A clown annoying the entire crew with a borderline antag behavior should be further observed. But if the consequences of their actions don't have serious impact other than being a global pain in the ass with crazy banana peels, would you prefer OOC consequences all the time over IC ones, in which the crew starts a hunt and bullies/lynches them, generating a more hilarious and organic outcome?

Players using the clown all the time only to do the same global gimmick which might end up in someone being harmed are indeed bad actors, and admins should take discretion about warning/noting/banning them for repeated behavior. Other players shouldn't be afraid of repeatedly ahelping a static they always see doing the same bullshit every single round. This has to be a joint effort from both players and admins, and this is speaking in general, for similar cases in which such specific precedent is needed.

I haven't played in a few days but Sheo, I haven't seen a single round in Manuel with a clown filling the station with synth peels the way you describe. Just my 2 cents perspective, maybe they connect all the rounds I don't, who knows?
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby remanseptim » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:15 am #572065

that was mostly in jest
but clown should have a ticket to be an annoying asshole and get beaten to death in response.
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Postby Gigapuddi420 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:41 pm #572108

just kill them, lol

For the classic Kor quote you can apply to a lot of situations:
If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you.


Moving on:
Agux909 wrote:What's the current precedent about clowns lubing hallways?


Not sure about the current admin trend, but I remember a time when lubing up high traffic halls to be a nuisance used to make you valid. It was basically the same idea as above; players who low key grief and get their just deserves are told to fuck off at best, or slapped with ban baiting at worse.
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby cacogen » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:58 pm #572286

If the clown isn't upsetting people, can he really be called a clown?
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Re: On Massive Synthetic Banana Peel Spam and other Senseless Clown Grief

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:23 am #576933

This is one of the inalienable rights of all clowns but they do so knowing full well that IC consequences may result. This is a goofy game, and this is something quite goofy for the round. We have no desire to implement any new ruling regarding preventing this.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Keep policy as is, I personally think its quite charming to see the halls filled with peels sometimes.
Domitius: Keep policy as is.
Naloac: Keep policy as is.


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