Obsessed - Full antag?

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jackrip
 
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Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby jackrip » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:52 pm #572596

I was playing as a captain and got obsessed midround. I used this opportunity to murder a few people and leak nuclear radiation everywhere. This was after spending a lot of time with my target, taking pictures with them, completing my objs, etc. I got boinked and was told that obsessed aren't full antag and have to stick to their objectives.

In the past I've both murdered people randomly as obsessed and been murdered randomly by obsessed. It has always been "free antag" in my experience and the fact that it no longer is was news to me. I'd like to clarify that obsessed is indeed a "limited" antag like abductors that aren't allowed to murder people.



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Vekter
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Vekter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:57 pm #572597

Yeah, I'm the one that bwoinked Jack over this. The way it was explained to me, Obsessed aren't supposed to be allowed to go apeshit and kill people like a normal antag because it'd be antithetical to how the antag role works. That being said? It's not listed anywhere in the description when you get the brain trauma.
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Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you

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Armhulen
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Armhulen » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:01 pm #572598

I tried to make the downsides of not focusing on your obsession discourage it and on manuel I should hope you aren't killing everyone but otherwise it is the weakest antagonist in the game with multiple crippling downsides until you kill your target with all objectives done, why cant it be allowed to kill
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Vekter
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Vekter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:16 pm #572600

Armhulen wrote:I tried to make the downsides of not focusing on your obsession discourage it and on manuel I should hope you aren't killing everyone but otherwise it is the weakest antagonist in the game with multiple crippling downsides until you kill your target with all objectives done, why cant it be allowed to kill


Because it's against the flavor of the antag (you're not supposed to get caught) and just giving someone a free murderbone ticket when they get a random brain trauma seems in poor form.
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Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you

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Angust
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Angust » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:48 pm #572602

Old policy discussion:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21380

I don't know what the conclusion was. My impression until today was that murderboning as obsessed was allowed.

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Armhulen
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Armhulen » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:56 pm #572603

Vekter wrote:
Armhulen wrote:I tried to make the downsides of not focusing on your obsession discourage it and on manuel I should hope you aren't killing everyone but otherwise it is the weakest antagonist in the game with multiple crippling downsides until you kill your target with all objectives done, why cant it be allowed to kill


Because it's against the flavor of the antag (you're not supposed to get caught) and just giving someone a free murderbone ticket when they get a random brain trauma seems in poor form.

I wont debate that, I'll let you guys come up with whatever ya want
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jackrip
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby jackrip » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:44 pm #572615

we currently give out free murderbone if you pick a book up off the ground with the only downside being cops

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NecromancerAnne
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:16 pm #572656

The antag policy around families is hardly what I would all well done. At least with Obsessed, it has a cohesive theme to it.

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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:31 pm #572658

Vekter wrote:Because it's against the flavor of the antag (you're not supposed to get caught) and just giving someone a free murderbone ticket when they get a random brain trauma seems in poor form.

that's in the 'flavor' of pretty much every antagonist, aside from the ones that are meant to go loud by design, E.G. team antags and wiz.
obviously you don't want to be caught as a traitor, as doing so would lower the chances of you escaping alive, but you are still allowed to.
in the rules it states:

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.


even if it doesn't make particular sense, you are still allowed, by the rules, to do whatever you want. furthermore I'll reference the wiki for obsessed:

Spoiler:
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all the wiki entry says is how to accomplish your objectives better. there's no stating what you can/cannot do. the only solid rule here is rule 4, and 'flavor', especially with how you seem to interpret it, is poor reasoning to bwoink someone.
further solidifying this is how fugitives, another contentious midround 'antagonist', has an actual entry on its page that says:

Please do note that you are not protected by Rule 4 as a Fugitive, as you are not a traditional antagonist. You are not allowed to kill crew members unprovoked, but if you are provoked, you are well within your rights to respond with antagonist behavior. For example, if security is helping you, stabbing them with spears would not be reasonable, and you would eat a bwoink. You are allowed to do anything to avoid capture. If security is cooperating with the Hunters, then you would be free to retaliate with force.
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Jack7D1
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Jack7D1 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:45 pm #572660

why is this thread a thing
Elysius Languida is a pacifist moth who dies every round.

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Agux909
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:26 pm #572667

Jack7D1 wrote:why is this thread a thing


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For if it isn't clear enough, the OP is asking for clarification on a policy status he perceives as vague regarding the "obsessed" antag.

This is because previous experiences in which he was able to murderbone with said antag gave him the impression it was allowed, yet he was bwoinked for it this last time for killing and causing chaos around after completing his objectives, prompting him to make this discussion.

Let me know if you still need me to explain further for you, maybe put it in simpler words.

-edit-

Fucking phone oversized images
Last edited by Agux909 on Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

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Cobby
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Cobby » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:22 pm #572668

obsessed should be treated like a brain trauma and not antagonist status, you wont be bwoinked for following the directives provided by the trauma but you will if you use it to justify culling the crew in a similar aspect to abductors.

Event roles in general should not be seeking to cull the crew at any opportunity unless it is by design that they are just evil like blob and nightmare.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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Shaps-cloud
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:38 am #572691

Yeah I always saw obsessed as letting you antag in a very specific scope of creeping on your target. It's a random event side antag, if there are any roles that we should actually be able to fit some nuance into, its those and ghost spawners.

Maybe it's just time to add an addendum to rule 4 acknowledging that some roles that don't have teammates aren't actually full lone antags, and that their freedoms can depend on their fluff. Like if I send in a Centcom official who goes "oh I have an antag datum and no teammates, clearly I can start murdering everyone" obviously admins would agree "no you cant" because that would make no sense and fucks up the point of the role. By a similar token, abductees get an antag datum and objectives and they still have to follow rules that limit their havoc.

It's not like it's that hard to enforce, if someone is blatantly ignoring their fluff in one of these side roles to bone, just ask them to cut it out, then pancake them if they refuse. Most players can govern themselves on simple restrictions like that just fine, and you don't need to deal with balancing equations on whether every single person they hurt was justified because people who disregard the limits enough to make a real issue of it will have generated a bunch of attention anyway. You don't need to care if they kill one lone dude for questionable reasons, but by the time they've slaughtered 5 people and are running around in the Captain's bloodied hardsuit with a fireaxe, you can safely conclude they've crossed the line.

Like I know no admin likes dealing with gauging the precise amount of BS someone can get away with given their role, and just waving your hands and saying "you can do whatever as a lone antag" is an easy out, but this really isn't a hard distinction to make and act on. Full on murderbone behavior is very systematic and easily recognizable, all you have to do is warn the person via PM when you see them starting to go nuts, then take action if they blow you off.
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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Vekter
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Vekter » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:40 am #572747

I mean if this is for clarification, I can tell you right now straight from the headmins that it's intended to be a role that isn't covered by antag freedom. Whether or not that's going to change is up to them.
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Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you

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Armhulen
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Armhulen » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:56 am #572748

I really like cobby and shap's interpretation, it's pretty solid
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vkalls
 
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby vkalls » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:31 pm #572792

Obsessed should not be a full antag and it's kind of simple to understand they aren't. Just arpee lol
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Coconutwarrior97
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Re: Obsessed - Full antag?

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:44 am #574163

Thanks to Vekter for PRing it so we could set it's flavor text via config, their flavor text has been set to, "Do not use this role as an excuse to murderbone, try to stick within the bounds of your objectives."
So they are not full antags. This applies to all servers.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes, Its been unspoken for a long time that this was the case, but unfortunately it was never actually solidly put in place. This should fix that.
Phuzzylodgik: Yes.
TWATICUS: Yes.


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