[MRP] Memory loss on death

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Sylphet
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[MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Sylphet » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:54 pm #573643

When people die right now, they remember every detail of it, and can immediately run to security and tell them how they died and who did it. I feel like this isn't really believable - death is traumatic for the brain, so memory loss is really likely. Not only that, but it encourages hard round removal like cremation or gibbing by antags, because they know that if their victim is ever found, they will magically remember every detail and sec will hunt them for the rest of the shift. Changing this would allow antags to use less force against their victims and allow security the opportunity to spend more time hunting an antag through detective work and evidence gathering, rather than just getting a name and validing the antag. Should this be changed at all ? How extreme should the memory loss be, and when should it begin and end ?
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby confused rock » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:02 pm #573645

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Flatulent » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:04 pm #573646

you should ask yourself, mr admin, do you really want to deal with administrative mess that is this proposal?
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby confused rock » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:07 pm #573647

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:18 pm #573649

I don't think demanding players pretend they don't remember things prior to their character's death is a fun or compelling experience for most, and we are already pushing the fragility of meta info with ghost observation and ghost roles and the like. I myself personally loathe playing on servers that do this stuff, and like mentioned above, it would be an administrative nightmare here. I don't think this would be practically enforceable at all, and it'd be a huge task to put upon the admins.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Misdoubtful » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:25 pm #573664

I've personally tried putting this in place on servers in the past, and its rarely gone smoothly.

Does it have its benefits? Absolutely, as you described, which I agree with from experience.

Let me put the potential negatives this way though, with a really simple sounding case: someone knows about their killer and gets revenge. Now for just a few of the questions that could come up depending on the approach to this.

Spoiler:
Does this involve information after death; information regarding actual death (How they died, where they died, why they died, and who killed them), a grace window of time before/during/after death to 'forget', or some other approach?
How did they know about their killer? Were they told about their killer? Did they hear about their killer unintentionally?
Once dead did they still know about their killer outside a window of death forgetfulness?
What happens if they find their gear in a hidden location? What if they stumble on the scene of death? What if someone has an item of theirs and they take it back?
Did they come to a rational conclusion on their killer when they woke up in medical from previous experiences in the round? What does this mean for escalation from those experiences? Does escalation need to 'reset' once dead?
Let alone the question of: does it affect being placed in an MMI, a reconstructed AI, pod-people, revival surgery, or even a staff of healing?


There are so many questions, ways things could play out, and so many possible conclusions to be considered. As confused rock said, things just become incredibly plausible and things could slip up incidentally very easily. With that said couldn't this just easily become a huge hassle for everyone involved to keep up with, becoming something that is just plain not fun to deal with? How does that get prevented?
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:47 am #573683

Deleting chat log on death sounds like a decent idea, but it'd immediately get overshadowed by "oh I'm a ghost so I'm just gonna take note of that guy running away from my corpse".

It wouldn't really work without overhauling the ghost system.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:04 am #573684

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Deleting chat log on death sounds like a decent idea,
This does not sound like a decent idea, at all.
Contemplate how this would affect ahelping, for one.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:05 am #573685

I don't think many of our players are quite good enough at roleplaying to expect them to be able to pull this off.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Sylphet » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:35 am #573689

PKPenguin321 wrote:I don't think many of our players are quite good enough at roleplaying to expect them to be able to pull this off.


This is meant to be MRP specific.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Flatulent » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:39 am #573765

Sylphet wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I don't think many of our players are quite good enough at roleplaying to expect them to be able to pull this off.


This is meant to be MRP specific.

The question still stands
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Sarvak » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:52 am #573775

There's both ways to conceal your identity and to make sure a corpse won't be brought back if you really want to make sure your identity is kept secret when doing a murder, this would just remove all the effort.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby XDTM » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:18 am #573777

Flatulent wrote:
Sylphet wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I don't think many of our players are quite good enough at roleplaying to expect them to be able to pull this off.


This is meant to be MRP specific.

The question still stands


It's not all that different from being killed by an Unknown, following them as a ghost and seeing their identity, then pretending you don't know them if you get revived. As far as i know players more or less manage to "forget" stuff they saw while observing.

It's still inevitable that it would still warp the reactions of the revived players. I don't know how much it will enhance mystery gameplay, but it might be worth a try at least.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Sylphet » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:01 am #573781

Flatulent wrote:
Sylphet wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I don't think many of our players are quite good enough at roleplaying to expect them to be able to pull this off.


This is meant to be MRP specific.

The question still stands


If I have to explain it more clearly - I would understand this argument if we were talking about the LRP servers, but this is Manuel, the roleplaying server, and to say that people on the roleplaying server aren't able to understand the concept of ignoring metaknowledge, when we already have metaknowledge rules for golems, posibrains, abductors - It doesn't make much sense. Even on the LRP servers, we have policy of not knowing what happens after your death. What's so different about before ? This does not need to be a difficult policy to understand, and this is why we have a policy thread on it. To find out how far this idea should go. Do you remember how you died, or where, why, when, or who did it ? These are kind of the questions that I want opinions on. I think that you should remember where you died, but not when, how, why, or by who. I think that's pretty easy for players to understand, and I think that it's something that our RP community can definitely handle. Since it was brought up in this thread also - the answers to these questions change how much work it is for admins.Total memory loss is - yeah, honestly unenforceable. Where you died only is perfectly enforceable, it also gives detectives a good starting point for their investigation and avoids the « oh I just happened to find my locker of stuff » problem that Rock mentioned. How and when can be answered by medical with a little investigating, why and who are the goals of sec's investigation. I think that doing things this way makes security create a trail of evidence leading to how they identified the killer, and if there's any question that the metaknowledge rule was broken - the natural gameplay of security itself would make it only a matter of checking the evidence collected. I don't see this being a difficult thing to admin once the MRP community settles into it.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:58 pm #573797

Sylphet while I appreciate the idea, I don't think it's feasible, and I think manuel already has issues in the opposite direction. It's not that people are incapable of roleplaying well enough to execute a system like this, it's that they are already in circumstances, as rock described, where they actually behaving less realistically as a result of having to take into account meta information, which is distracting and ultimately I think less fun.

I think I'd prefer a solution like this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401#p573779

It enables more roleplaying situations across Classic and MRP servers, without the player having to expend extra effort. I know it's not exactly what you intended, but I think it does provide a lot of the things you'd like more of in a more elegant way.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Space Panda » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:49 pm #573809

Stickymayhem wrote:Sylphet while I appreciate the idea, I don't think it's feasible, and I think manuel already has issues in the opposite direction. It's not that people are incapable of roleplaying well enough to execute a system like this, it's that they are already in circumstances, as rock described, where they actually behaving less realistically as a result of having to take into account meta information, which is distracting and ultimately I think less fun.

I think I'd prefer a solution like this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401#p573779

It enables more roleplaying situations across Classic and MRP servers, without the player having to expend extra effort. I know it's not exactly what you intended, but I think it does provide a lot of the things you'd like more of in a more elegant way.


Gotta agree with Sticky here. The best way to tackle these issues is to avoid giving players any metaknowledge at all, instead of trying to force them to act ignorant. Having to rely on player behaviour is always more challenging, and anyone who has played enough tabletop rpgs should know how frustrating it feels to pretend you don't have important knowledge just because your character doesn't.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Misdoubtful » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:59 pm #573816

Stickymayhem wrote:Sylphet while I appreciate the idea, I don't think it's feasible, and I think manuel already has issues in the opposite direction. It's not that people are incapable of roleplaying well enough to execute a system like this, it's that they are already in circumstances, as rock described, where they actually behaving less realistically as a result of having to take into account meta information, which is distracting and ultimately I think less fun.

I think I'd prefer a solution like this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401#p573779

It enables more roleplaying situations across Classic and MRP servers, without the player having to expend extra effort. I know it's not exactly what you intended, but I think it does provide a lot of the things you'd like more of in a more elegant way.


Pitching in my agreement at the concept here. Less meta information to frustratingly juggle and potentially screw up with may just be the route to making this manageable.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Farquaar » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:56 pm #573818

I would support clearing the chatlog after death on MRP. If you suspect a kill was bad, admins will still have access to the log when you ahelp. If a kill was technically against the rules, but no players or admins noticed or cared, is it really a problem? More fun and mystery, I say.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Sylphet » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:23 pm #573822

Misdoubtful wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Sylphet while I appreciate the idea, I don't think it's feasible, and I think manuel already has issues in the opposite direction. It's not that people are incapable of roleplaying well enough to execute a system like this, it's that they are already in circumstances, as rock described, where they actually behaving less realistically as a result of having to take into account meta information, which is distracting and ultimately I think less fun.

I think I'd prefer a solution like this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401#p573779

It enables more roleplaying situations across Classic and MRP servers, without the player having to expend extra effort. I know it's not exactly what you intended, but I think it does provide a lot of the things you'd like more of in a more elegant way.


Pitching in my agreement at the concept here. Less meta information to frustratingly juggle and potentially screw up with may just be the route to making this manageable.


Yeah, I also like this. It doesn't entirely solve the problems that I mentioned, but it's in the right direction.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Zack » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:38 pm #573850

If you are worried about your victim ratting you out, there are many many many methods for almost any antag to negate this in an IC way, from things as simple as changing your clothes, wearing a mask and generic grey jumpsuit, the underutilized chameleon kit, changeling's form changing, or even as complex as wearing someone ELSE'S ID, methods of changing your appearance like genetics or xenobiology, the list goes on and on.

My whole point is, I don't think the victim needs to forget anything. The antagonist has plenty of opportunities to take the stealthy approach if that's what they wanted. On the flip side, I don't think very lazy antags round-removing their victims is, or should be, an administrative issue. It is very lame, though.

I feel like, if this were enforced, this wouldn't stop antagonists from round-removing people, anyways.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 pm #573852

Would probably work better as some sort of mechanic which tells you what you forgot (if anything) upon revival. Ex: “You feel confused. You can’t seem to remember who killed you!” or where/how/by what etc. Maybe the longer time dead (outside of stasis), the more severe memory loss?

Still will be a bitch to administrate though.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:53 am #573866

Sylphet wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I don't think many of our players are quite good enough at roleplaying to expect them to be able to pull this off.


This is meant to be MRP specific.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Cobby » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:57 am #573869

have people realistically been in a situation where they just got "randomly killed" because someoen ghost info'd?
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:05 pm #573924

Absolutely not, fuck off.
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Gamarr » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:50 pm #573928

With cloning and easy revival? This is an absolute nightmare that would not work. While rocks examples and points were good, tg is different in that 'death' is not final. Losing memories just from head trauma is one thing but full on allowing people to be ghosts before joining the living again? Not going to work in the slightest and will be a bureaucratic hell.

It is perhaps a MRP issue but the game mechanics do not support it. As mentioned, ghost would need reworking, or death in general, to be able to really be enjoyed or trusted.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby NecromancerAnne » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:05 pm #573972

I remember discussion from actionninja suggesting a ghost cafe that puts you in it when you die so you can't metagame while dead. You need to be in this cafe in order to rejoin the round. Leaving it is a joint DNR and bars you from ghost roles, but lets you observe. It isn't a particularly new idea and not something I haven't seen suggested elsewhere or experimented with, but one I think I've seen a few maintainers discuss previously. That's pretty much also the only method to preventing metagame information leaking out from observe.

I felt the concept would be more detrimental to player retention and involvement than solving problems with players bringing ooc info into their next life. For one, ghost roles mandating you be in the Alt-Tab Dungeon uninvolved in anything and having nothing to discuss makes me think most of our players will just end up server hopping.

Few people just observe and alt-tab. They usually come to watch at least for a bit and shoot the shit as a ghost before alt-tabbing. Additionally, some game elements that draw from the ghost pool will likely not work roundstart if there is an active deterence from observing a round. We basically need to kiss holoparas, reinforcements and the like goodbye.

The reason I say this is because for a good while Manuel had a lot of trouble getting a reasonable amount of ghosts in a round to begin with due to a massive disincentive to observing thanks to it's 50 pop cap at the time. Observing eats up valuable play slots, and keeps you from guaranteeing a round on Manuel.

I feel this isn't worth the effort. We have no cloning to worry about, or handwave how you lose memories as cloning memory loss. So it is just better to allow retained memory. The real way to solve this is blacking out the screen while unconscious, as already suggested.

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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby RaveRadbury » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:52 pm #573980

NecromancerAnne wrote:I remember discussion from actionninja suggesting a ghost cafe that puts you in it when you die.

If we could make it anything like the peyote trip scene from the Civil War on Drugs that would be incredibly dank
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby EOBGames » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:44 pm #574055

if absolutely nothing else the ghost cafe is fun as an idea regardless of whether or not it's required for respawns
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Re: [MRP] Memory loss on death

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:22 am #574137

I'll say personally that this isn't something Im interested in implementing.


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