The Greentext [MRP]

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Tiviplus
 
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The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Tiviplus » Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:58 pm #575029

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/53408

Oranges says to take it here so here we are

MRP doesn't work well with greentext because it encourages people to do their objectives the most efficient way instead of actually creating an interesting story.
This goes as well for crew as antags because people play to win on both sides making for bland rounds where nothing happens.



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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Sylphet » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:10 pm #575030

Ehhhh... time to post cringe. This doesn't go far enough, objectives as a whole should probably go on MRP. Completely agree with the problem but I don't think that just removing the greentext is much of a solution.
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:56 pm #575034

Not an issue with greentext, it’s an issue with server culture and the objectives themselves. Making objectives more dynamic and less linear would probably be the best way of going about the issue. I don’t see how the suggestion to remove objectives would do anything but feed the issue, since people wouldn’t even take the basic risks they initially had to.

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Space Panda » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:15 pm #575036

wesoda25 wrote:Not an issue with greentext, it’s an issue with server culture and the objectives themselves. Making objectives more dynamic and less linear would probably be the best way of going about the issue. I don’t see how the suggestion to remove objectives would do anything but feed the issue, since people wouldn’t even take the basic risks they initially had to.


I agree with the first part of your post. Could you give a few examples of "dynamic objectives" you'd like to see in the game?

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Cobby » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:24 pm #575038

What are you suppose to do if you don’t have objectives?

I would heavily reconsider the theory that players will do something other than pick people off or come up with some cute and creative gimmick everytime.

We had people who can’t even make an attempt at creatively approaching die gloriously if they couldn’t murderbone, I don’t think this approach will be a step forward.

The nuance here is that player SHOULD care about their objectives, but prioritize approaching it creatively rather that checking it off in the most optimal way.
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Screemonster » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:46 pm #575042

inb4 someone gets mad fucking salty and posts an admin complaint that the admin IC-issued their ahelp over an antag "murderboning for no reason" because the end of round report didn't reveal that they were in fact that antag's murder objective

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:51 pm #575044

Space Panda wrote:I agree with the first part of your post. Could you give a few examples of "dynamic objectives" you'd like to see in the game?

Basically I mean less straightforward objectives which force the traitor to think/act on their feet. I’m thinking more interactive, real-time objectives that come in parts. Ex: infiltrate [x area] and await further instructions. Once the person is there they get a message in their head from syndicate command and a new objective to do something.

That’s just off the top of my head, basically I just mean something which doesn’t allow a traitor a completely fool proof plan.

Or, just enabling more difficult objectives might be better, such as the stranding one.

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Misdoubtful » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:09 pm #575047

While I myself am someone that would much rather do my own thing and use objectives as an extremely loose guideline - its mostly because I find the objectives as they are, boring unless used as a foundation for creativity.

wesoda25 wrote:Not an issue with greentext, it’s an issue with server culture and the objectives themselves. Making objectives more dynamic and less linear would probably be the best way of going about the issue. I don’t see how the suggestion to remove objectives would do anything but feed the issue, since people wouldn’t even take the basic risks they initially had to.


I like the sound of this. Flavor and real time objectives/antags based on whats going on the round can be a lot of fun.



Can no objectives work? Sure, on some servers it works. Usually it works when opportunities to become an antag later in the round happens and there is fuel to make something interesting happen. It also from experience on those servers means a whole lot less people willing to be antags, and a whole lot more pressure to antag well.

That said, objectives can make being an antag a whole lot easier but MRP seems a bit adverse to the current objective set.

Is the creation of minor antags based on whats going on in a round something to consider?

Or perhaps just more objectives for antags to get? Things like: delam (and explode) the SM, destroy the solars, more possible theft objectives including things like pets, destroy x room, or whatever else someone can come up with.

Maybe part of the issue lies with the low number of antags and the already low impact from them? Due to things like a lot of late joins.

Its also worth noting that if there is an issue of a lack of gimmicks coming up, how would removing objectives remedy the issue? What would prevent it from leading to that situation of high pressure and even less antags?
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Farquaar » Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:11 am #575089

Greentext/objective based gameplay is fine on MRP. Why do people keep talking about MRP like it's HRP?

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:24 am #575090

As I already said in the PR, the objectives system having a success or failure state puts stakes to your efforts and players in a goal-orientated mindset. This is useful for any roleplay, as it helps you facilitate your role and how you should be behaving. Taking this away largely robs players of any good signposting or direction for how they should be acting, and taking away the visible thumbs up for their success also robs them of the merit.

We should focus on how our objectives inform antagonist behaviour by tying them closer to their gameplay, and not something adjacent to it. If it was attached to their gameplay, like a checklist for stuff you can do in the role you're in with the powers you have, or the means to which you obtain more powers, then maybe it'd be more closely adhered too.

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:54 am #575100

NecromancerAnne wrote:As I already said in the PR, the objectives system having a success or failure state puts stakes to your efforts and players in a goal-orientated mindset. This is useful for any roleplay, as it helps you facilitate your role and how you should be behaving. Taking this away largely robs players of any good signposting or direction for how they should be acting, and taking away the visible thumbs up for their success also robs them of the merit.

We should focus on how our objectives inform antagonist behaviour by tying them closer to their gameplay, and not something adjacent to it. If it was attached to their gameplay, like a checklist for stuff you can do in the role you're in with the powers you have, or the means to which you obtain more powers, then maybe it'd be more closely adhered too.
Objectives are so poorly coded right now that it is effortlessly easy to greentext or redtext, by no fault of your own. I'm not sure they can be greatly and easily improved.

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:31 am #575126

Farquaar wrote:Greentext/objective based gameplay is fine on MRP. Why do people keep talking about MRP like it's HRP?
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby BrianBackslide » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:04 pm #575168

I haven't felt the need to speedrun my objectives and secure the greentext. Hell, Manuel's so peaceful most rounds I can get my shit done without much suspicion, then I sit the whole round thinking "Well that was easy, what now?" Honestly I feel compelled to add some chaos to the round even after I've technically already completed my work. Otherwise it just turns into another greenshift where I play along and make nice until people get bored.

Personally I don't give a shit about greentext as long as I made the round more !!fun!! but removing objectives I think would do poorly in informing antags what they're supposed to/can do. What about newer players getting antag? Is just dropping them in a sandbox with no constructive direction is a good design choice? Does that help "move the story forward"? Or will they just get robusted by sec and the round goes into pseudo greenshift?

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Screemonster » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:08 am #575249

BrianBackslide wrote:I haven't felt the need to speedrun my objectives and secure the greentext. Hell, Manuel's so peaceful most rounds I can get my shit done without much suspicion, then I sit the whole round thinking "Well that was easy, what now?" Honestly I feel compelled to add some chaos to the round even after I've technically already completed my work. Otherwise it just turns into another greenshift where I play along and make nice until people get bored.

Personally I don't give a shit about greentext as long as I made the round more !!fun!! but removing objectives I think would do poorly in informing antags what they're supposed to/can do. What about newer players getting antag? Is just dropping them in a sandbox with no constructive direction is a good design choice? Does that help "move the story forward"? Or will they just get robusted by sec and the round goes into pseudo greenshift?

The tried and true method if you can't think of a gimmick is to just play normally and wait for someone to inconvenience you in literally any way then take advantage of the fact that you aren't bound by escalation policy

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby cacogen » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:03 am #575275

We should remove the game mechanics because they get in the way of roleplaying by incentivising people to do what it takes to win. Instead, people should simply roleplay the roles they've been assigned in the fashion that creates the most interesting story instead of performing jobs or achieving objectives. This creates an inclusive space where nobody can lose and nobody has to sit out. There's precedent here with such virtual spaces (herein referred to as "chatrooms") as IMVU, There, The Sims Online, Second Life and Furcadia.
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:20 pm #575358

cacogen wrote:We should remove the game mechanics because they get in the way of roleplaying by incentivising people to do what it takes to win. Instead, people should simply roleplay the roles they've been assigned in the fashion that creates the most interesting story instead of performing jobs or achieving objectives. This creates an inclusive space where nobody can lose and nobody has to sit out. There's precedent here with such virtual spaces (herein referred to as "chatrooms") as IMVU, There, The Sims Online, Second Life and Furcadia.
Underneath the sarcasm here there is an unironically pretty good take.

Putting aside the code mechanics behind greentexting and redtexting being pretty borked, I don't see what'd be so wrong with just listing people's objectives at the end of the round, not (the code's poorly implementation detection of) if they succeeded or failed.

Suppose you have an objective to assassinate somebody. Can't it be up to you on the fly, if succeeding at that objective means "efficiently make them go away forever" or "take them out to send a strong message, ensure they're alive to remember the beating", or anything in between? Just a thought, I dunno.

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby NoxVS » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:41 pm #575728

Objectives work well as a sort of guide. Optional if you want to do it or not.

The issue is mainly on MRP where the rules on what you can do as an antagonist are based on your objectives. If you have to download a tech disk and steal a tank of plasma as a scientist it feels like you aren't allowed to do anything.
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Sylphet » Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:40 pm #575750

NoxVS wrote:The issue is mainly on MRP where the rules on what you can do as an antagonist are based on your objectives. If you have to download a tech disk and steal a tank of plasma as a scientist it feels like you aren't allowed to do anything.


This is a really good point and one that I want to back up - I've heard a lot from players recently that they just don't feel comfortable doing things as antag, even to achieve their objectives. I've given players explicit permission to do certain things IC and they've expressed that they still felt scared of getting bwoinked. I feel like Manuel antags are paralysed by our ruleset, policies, and admin actions against them - and removing objectives and greentext along with what policy we have attached to them could be a good step towards fixing that.
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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:36 pm #575760

Actually now that I think about it, removing greentext wouldn’t be terrible if we used it as a chance to implement more freeform objectives. Stuff that’s difficult to actually judge as a success through code, for example: “Actively sabotage x department”. Or get more specific and simpler if necessary. Without a strict objective, players would probably take more chances and get more creative.

I just don’t get proposing to remove objectives.

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Screemonster » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:52 am #575829

wesoda25 wrote:Actually now that I think about it, removing greentext wouldn’t be terrible if we used it as a chance to implement more freeform objectives. Stuff that’s difficult to actually judge as a success through code, for example: “Actively sabotage x department”. Or get more specific and simpler if necessary. Without a strict objective, players would probably take more chances and get more creative.

I just don’t get proposing to remove objectives.

RP objectives with no green/redtext detection would be interesting and it's similar to how I've seen them done in more roleplay-oriented places. Usually with those they have to be custom done by the admins (usually with a custom objective that the admins immediately set to successful)

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Re: The Greentext [MRP]

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:43 am #576945

We have no interest in implementing this change.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.


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