[MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

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[MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:57 pm #575525

It's a shitty gamemode. Secret is better. Do some actual polling of the Manuel playerbase before you put Dynamic on it.



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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Misdoubtful » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:10 pm #575527

Dynamic can be fine tuned. Is it not worth testing tuned dynamic to begin with?

Some tuned dynamic happened to run for hours just the other day for a handful rounds — none of them were 'a chaotic mess'. In fact people didn't assume they were dynamic rounds at all from how tuned and tame they were, considering that more often than not, dynamic is directly associated with chaos.

Dynamic does not have to go hand in hand with chaos.

How is this all achieved for the MRP server? A lower curve, longer width, set threat, (all of these based on the server population and experience in what they will mean) and things like the secret mode toggle that essentially just auto traitors throughout the round via mid-round spawning to keep a long round from getting stale.

Dynamics shortcoming are more setup based and partial to the lack of improvements / QOL being ported over from its origin port in my experience.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:26 pm #575532

Additionally, this change would remove Families from Manuel, a gamemode that the players there actually like since it is disabled in Dynamic.

ADDITIONALLY, the codebase has no plans to support Dynamic in the future. It is entirely possible Dynamic will be removed.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Sheodir » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:59 pm #575541

Goof yes this is me manuel man 64

Nobody likes families

There are like 3 players who actually like it because they had one round with actual roleplay as gang members rather than free antag and they don't realize even said roleplay plays out the exact same way every way and assuming good faith doesn't work

Meanwhile almost nobody in the SECRET MANUEL GAMER CHANNELS says "remove dynamic" they usually say "fix dynamic" or "no blob in dynamic pls"
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby BrianBackslide » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:04 pm #575544

Because we need more 2hr stale rounds on Manuel where the antags either fuck off or get caught early and it becomes pseudo greenshift. I don't think we need 24/7 Dynamic, but a lighter supplemental Dynamic that helps to add to stale rounds is very much needed.

I honestly don't mind Families, Wizard, Cult, Nukies, etc. On Manuel, but those rounds typically don't become stale.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Agux909 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:51 pm #575569

I agree that, as it was said, so long it's a fine tuned Dynamic purposefully adjusted for Manuel, with some testing behind a controlled integration, it can work and it has the potential to be better than anything secret currently has to offer.

Also, I'm neutral about families but I've never seen anyone discussing them or their absence in a round in ooc. I don't really care if dynamic supports them or not, to be honest.

That being said, I think just straight up changing Manuel to dynamic 24/7 without all that in mind would be far from ideal
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Jack7D1 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:33 pm #575579

Dynamic for manuel
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby NoxVS » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:52 pm #575585

Because of the anti murderbone rules, rounds that aren't dynamic tend to be stale. Dynamic makes the round more interesting by adding more sources of conflict into what would otherwise be a boring round where nothing happens for 2 hours

And I am sorry to tell you this Goof, but I don't think people on Manuel actually like Families.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby cybersaber101 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:46 am #575595

I enjoyed family on manuel. I'm pretty skeptical of dynamic in general for manuel,I do agree that some extreme tweaking could make it work.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Naloac » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:21 am #575597

Tweaking was the idea for manuel, working with both players and admins to have a properly tuned experience. Dynamic needs work to fit into an MRP setting but its not an impossible task. it just requires someone to be willing to put in the effort on the admin side.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Cobby » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:01 am #575621

I’m willing to bet goofs primary concern is that full on dynamic will impact families which I don’t believe is on dynamic any longer, he just hid it behind other stuff.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Vekter » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:25 am #575628

I'm siding with Goof on this one. Dynamic tends to get INSANELY chaotic from time to time. It's ridiculous and maybe a bit more than what we're wanting on Manuel. I think it might should be on there as an option, but not the default by any means. Having a wizard, three Heretics, and six Traitors running around at the same time while fighting a blob isn't conducive to an RP environment.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Naloac » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:24 am #575641

Vekter wrote:I'm siding with Goof on this one. Dynamic tends to get INSANELY chaotic from time to time. It's ridiculous and maybe a bit more than what we're wanting on Manuel. I think it might should be on there as an option, but not the default by any means. Having a wizard, three Heretics, and six Traitors running around at the same time while fighting a blob isn't conducive to an RP environment.

I took the time to get dynamics recent numbers from bagil. This will obviously have some mistakes and I left out event antags since they arent handled by dynamic.

Spoiler:
6 antags pop of 60~ blood bros + heretic(edited)
2 antags pop of 40~ blood bros(edited)
7 out of 40~ nuke ops team ghost role borg, obsessed 2 heretics(edited)
3 out of 40-45~ wizard traitor 1 blob
4 out of 20-45~ blood brothers traitor and a wizard
4 out of 10 ~ 30 blood brothers
4 out of 2 - 15~ traitors(edited)
0 out of 15~ 25
3 out of 10 - 15~ traitors(edited)
3 out of 30- 20~ 2 changelings and a heretic(edited)
5 + cult out of 30 - 40~ 4 blood bros 1 ling and a cult
3 out of 30- 40~ 3 lings
9 out of 50-60 4 lings 5traitors
7 out of 50- 70 4 traitors 2 lings one nightmare
3 + cult out of 60-70~ 3 heretics one cult
4 out of 50-70 2 brothers 2 lings
ops out of 50-60~
6 out of 50 - 60~ 6 blood brothers
3 out of 40-60~ 3 tots
ops out of 40-50~
4 out of 5-60~ 2 traitors one nightmare and a mid round rev
7 out of 30-60 6 blood bros 1 nightmare
4 out of 20-40~ all tots
4 out of 10-30 all tots
5 out of 25-30 4 tots one nightmare
2 out of 30~ wiz and a traitor
6 out of 40~ 2 brothers 4 lings
4 out of 50-60~ all ling
2 out of 20-60~ traitors
6 out of 70-80~ heretics
11 out of 60-80 all traitors
6 out of 60~ 2 lings 4 brothers
8 out of 60-80~ 4 lings 3 blood bros one wizard
4+ops 40-60~ 3 traitors 1heretic
5 out of 20-50 2 brothers 1 heretic 2 traitors
4 out of 40-60~ 4 traitors
4 out of 20-50~ 4 traitors
6 out of 30~ all blood bros
5 out of 30-40~ all traiotrs(edited)
6 out of 40~ 5 traitors + wizard
1plus ops out of 40~ 1 tot
4 plus ops out of 30-40 all heretics
1 out of 40-50~ wizard
6 out of 60-70 2brothers 3 heretics 1 traitor
2 plus cult out of 60-70~
6 plus cult out of 60~
3 plus ops out of 60-80 all traitors
6 out of 60-50 all lings
3 out of 70-80
7 out of 60-80 5 blood bros 2 lings
4 out of 20-60 3 heretics 1 traitor
8 out of 50-80 traitors
1 out of 50~ wizard
5 out of 30-40~2 traitors 2 lings 1 heretic
3 out of 20-30~ traitors
7 out of 30-40~ 6 brothers 1 traitor


In my opinion these sort of numbers look perfectly fine.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby skoglol » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:09 pm #575652

Cobby wrote:I’m willing to bet goofs primary concern is that full on dynamic will impact families which I don’t believe is on dynamic any longer, he just hid it behind other stuff.


Its disabled in config last I checked, same as secret.

Dynamic can fit fine on MRP, even better than secret. It needs tuning, imo it does on LRP as well, but this is perfectly achieveable. The ground work is already done, someone taking the time to tweak the configs to taste is all thats needed.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 pm #575661

Vekter wrote:I'm siding with Goof on this one. Dynamic tends to get INSANELY chaotic from time to time. It's ridiculous and maybe a bit more than what we're wanting on Manuel. I think it might should be on there as an option, but not the default by any means. Having a wizard, three Heretics, and six Traitors running around at the same time while fighting a blob isn't conducive to an RP environment.

This really isn’t an argument considering dynamic can be tweaked to be calmer. Ofc thats assuming it’s actually even chaotic.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Sheodir » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:35 pm #575673

Naloac wrote:snip
In my opinion these sort of numbers look perfectly fine.


Based

As said, "Dynamic is Chaotic!" isn't an issue because the percentages can be tweaked. The only thing we're arguing is - does the concept of Dynamic gamemodes have value? (Yes) and Should we make an effort to support it? (Yes)
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby iamgoofball » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:00 pm #575725

Dynamic's entire gimmick is that it's chaotic. Taking the chaotic out of Dynamic makes it no longer Dynamic, just a shitty reskin of Secret.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby skoglol » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:46 pm #575730

Your takes are usually cold goof, but you could stop global warming with that one.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Sheodir » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:56 pm #575732

iamgoofball wrote:Dynamic's entire gimmick is that it's chaotic. Taking the chaotic out of Dynamic makes it no longer Dynamic, just a shitty reskin of Secret.

No, the entire gimmick is that several events can happen at different times than expected, reacting to the current number of players and other factors. It adds, as the name implies, a more dynamic feeling to the round than the singular predictable choices that all have the same exact start time.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Misdoubtful » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:24 pm #575736

Adding onto my previous post. There are also rules and their requirements that be adjusted as well, meaning that all those game modes that are felt should not be on MRP won't happen. The idea of rev cult, cult nukies, etc is already non existent by default as round ending antags are toggled not to stack in their creation.

Part of issue with dynamic though is the current Lorentz curve leading to some crazy rounds. Solutions to that were made to make things a lot more even keeled at its origin point and the addition of things like Gaussian and Exponential curves that can be used, alongside improvements made the original Lorentz curve itself. Or just, you know, setting the threat level yourself and cutting out the curve altogether.

Just look at that central tendency with the improved Lorentz curve and how much less chaos there is for threat to get translated into (threat is on a 1-100 scale, 30-50 is the 'comfortable middle ground'):
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iamgoofball wrote:Dynamic's entire gimmick is that it's chaotic. Taking the chaotic out of Dynamic makes it no longer Dynamic, just a shitty reskin of Secret.


Isn't that the entire point? Its a platform for game modes to run on. I assume you have kept up on the development of dynamic? Or in the very least, the changes to the Lorentz curve I posted above? Your statement is going in the exact opposite direction of Dynamic's actual progress.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:25 am #575831

In my humble opinion how chaotic dynamic is depends on the players participating in the round.
Could you provide at least one Manuel round that was as chaotic as you're saying it is?
Do you even know how it works?
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby vkalls » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:46 pm #575836

I'd like to see some tests of dynamic on Manuel before we go in full swing, but I think it might be able to stop rounds from becoming stale, at least to an extent.. I do think it needs a lot of toning down and removal of too powerful antags on lower populations if its possible (xenos, blob, team antags, heretic, etc). Also I don't quite agree with those "perfectly fine" antag counts from Bagil on Manuel.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Sylphet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:06 pm #575839

Dynamic's current numbers are wayyyyy too chaotic for Manuel. It's very difficult to have any interesting RP when a revolutionary wizard changeling is ei nath-ing their way through medical while everyone dies to three blobs and a cultist space ninja. I like the idea of dynamic, it would help Manuel a lot but it needs a lot of changes before we can even consider making it the default.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby imsxz » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:46 pm #575843

iamgoofball wrote:Dynamic's entire gimmick is that it's chaotic. Taking the chaotic out of Dynamic makes it no longer Dynamic, just a shitty reskin of Secret.


"unpredictable" has a better connotation for describing dynamic than "chaotic"
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Sheodir » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:28 pm #575847

Sylphet wrote:Dynamic's current numbers are wayyyyy too chaotic for Manuel. It's very difficult to have any interesting RP when a revolutionary wizard changeling is ei nath-ing their way through medical while everyone dies to three blobs and a cultist space ninja. I like the idea of dynamic, it would help Manuel a lot but it needs a lot of changes before we can even consider making it the default.

Whilst I agree and that's the general gist of it, I feel over half the issue here is
1. Wizards, in general
2. Blob is not conductive to a RP environment
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Fatal » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:48 pm #575853

I've seen plenty of dynamic rounds with low threat on Terry which were so peaceful security were suiciding, convinced it was a green shift

Is it possible to simply lower the limit of threat?

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Armhulen » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:48 pm #575854

Sheodir wrote:
Sylphet wrote:Dynamic's current numbers are wayyyyy too chaotic for Manuel. It's very difficult to have any interesting RP when a revolutionary wizard changeling is ei nath-ing their way through medical while everyone dies to three blobs and a cultist space ninja. I like the idea of dynamic, it would help Manuel a lot but it needs a lot of changes before we can even consider making it the default.

Whilst I agree and that's the general gist of it, I feel over half the issue here is
1. Wizards, in general
2. Blob is not conductive to a RP environment

1. Disagree, High Antagonism does not devalue RP as shown by 2015 Sybil being chaotic but very classy RP levels. I would actually argue not enough antagonism devalues RP as people then start doing the shittiest kind of rp, bar roleplay
2. Disagree, Blob is a team threat for the station to handle and one of our best midround antags. Just because you can't talk or make a deal with the blob doesn't make it a bad antag for manuel because not all antagonists should be allowed to engage in deep debate
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Armhulen » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:49 pm #575855

Fatal wrote:I've seen plenty of dynamic rounds with low threat on Terry which were so peaceful security were suiciding, convinced it was a green shift

Is it possible to simply lower the limit of threat?

This, and you could make higher threat things have more cost as to make sure a round doesn't have to deal with multiple round enders.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Space Panda » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:11 pm #575858

Armhulen wrote:
Sheodir wrote:
Sylphet wrote:Dynamic's current numbers are wayyyyy too chaotic for Manuel. It's very difficult to have any interesting RP when a revolutionary wizard changeling is ei nath-ing their way through medical while everyone dies to three blobs and a cultist space ninja. I like the idea of dynamic, it would help Manuel a lot but it needs a lot of changes before we can even consider making it the default.

Whilst I agree and that's the general gist of it, I feel over half the issue here is
1. Wizards, in general
2. Blob is not conductive to a RP environment

1. Disagree, High Antagonism does not devalue RP as shown by 2015 Sybil being chaotic but very classy RP levels. I would actually argue not enough antagonism devalues RP as people then start doing the shittiest kind of rp, bar roleplay
2. Disagree, Blob is a team threat for the station to handle and one of our best midround antags. Just because you can't talk or make a deal with the blob doesn't make it a bad antag for manuel because not all antagonists should be allowed to engage in deep debate


agreed

Wizards can be really fun for MRP, as long as they don't go full murderbone throwing fireballs at everyone they see. They have access to spells that allow to fuck with the crew in really funny ways, and their rituals can create some really cool events.

And yes, MRP doesn't need to have talkative antags. Blob is a good event that makes people have to coordinate their actions against a huge threat to the station. It also creates opportunities for other antags to complete their own objectives while the station is busy dealing with it.

Perhaps there could be some changes to Wizard MRP policy or code to avoid situations where they just explode everybody while trying to speedrun their greentext.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Sheodir » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:55 pm #575877

Armhulen wrote:1. Disagree, High Antagonism does not devalue RP as shown by 2015 Sybil being chaotic but very classy RP levels. I would actually argue not enough antagonism devalues RP as people then start doing the shittiest kind of rp, bar roleplay
2. Disagree, Blob is a team threat for the station to handle and one of our best midround antags. Just because you can't talk or make a deal with the blob doesn't make it a bad antag for manuel because not all antagonists should be allowed to engage in deep debate

I feel you're arguing from a perspective of "this can work" whilst I'm arguing from a more pragmatic, enforceable amount

My issue with Wizard isn't High Antagonism, it's that it's either murderbone (which to be fair is somewhat banned now) or press the wacky spell buttons to a degree that doesn't conduct to RP at all. It's hard to RP when everyone's mindswapping and lul so randome vents are triggering every five seconds. I'd prefer if the Wizard's more direct antagonist angle was prioritized over his wacky events role, but it needs some reworking so that he isn't so much the warp in, fireball warp out guy. With the Blob, the issue is that the OOC awareness that the blob can just insta round end if you delay a certain amount (it's BASICALLY just a timer) it incentivizes people to basically not RP until it's done. My issue isn't that you can't RP WITH the blob, but rather that it disincentivizes RP from what I've seen in Manuel.

I fully agree with point 1 on antagonism and am a notable enemy of bar RP, but I still believe Wizard needs a full rework (my point was moreso wizard is shit in general, MRP or not, as either murderbone galore or the lulrandom events) and that blob has no place in Manuel in its current state. There can be some fun RP around blob, so it's not THAT bad, I'd just like blob's progression to be altered a bit so it demanded less immediate attention.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:17 am #575912

Armhulen wrote:2. Disagree, Blob is a team threat for the station to handle and one of our best midround antags. Just because you can't talk or make a deal with the blob doesn't make it a bad antag for manuel because not all antagonists should be allowed to engage in deep debate

I strongly disagree. The best midround antag, in terms of both rp and gameplay, is unironically abductor however it's not for personal bias reasons that I am known for having. It is because it adds to the round, isn't inherently chaotic, and actually has some roleplay involved. I will say that I am biased in that I think blob is the worst goddamn midround antag due to various reasons however it is a neat idea on paper, and if the crew actually does work together (aka more than ten fucking guys) then it would be great shit. It is also the ONLY antagonist that is 100% forced to be hostile so I will admit you're right in the second sentence though. Even swarmers can be negotiated with.

It should really be a random event thing though and not something dynamic can spawn on ALL servers though. It feels like a waste of points in some ways since you already could get mid-round blobs before quite easily.

edit: no, it doesn't count if you say "NOT ACCORDING TO THE RULES" because blobs actually makes actions automatically no matter what. Everyone else has to CHOOSE to make an action.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:08 am #575935

You also literally can talk to the blob, it can say stuff through all its mobs.

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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby EOBGames » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:23 am #575941

Ayy Lemoh wrote:I strongly disagree. The best midround antag, in terms of both rp and gameplay, is unironically abductor however it's not for personal bias reasons that I am known for having. It is because it adds to the round, isn't inherently chaotic, and actually has some roleplay involved.

Come on Jerry we all know you're a baldie fanboy.

As for the actual topic of the thread, in my opinion dynamic would be a welcome change to Manuel. Maybe we can get rounds that actually go somewhere, instead of stagnating for two hours until someone falls asleep on the shuttle button and everyone gets put out of their misery. Of course it will need tweaked for the specific situation on Manuel, but I hope if it does become standard that the chances of a greenshift aren't raised beyond what they currently are.
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby cacogen » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:09 am #575950

You should do test rounds on Manuel if you haven't already so you're making decisions based on information instead of assumptions.
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Ayy Lemoh
 
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:43 pm #575996

iamgoofball wrote:You also literally can talk to the blob, it can say stuff through all its mobs.

Blobs are inherently evil (well not really since they're just a bunch of cells tbh) that very few people know if it can speak to other people, assuming that's even a thing which I don't believe is.

If a blob is peaceful then I believe most blob types do some minor automatic spreading. This means the blob is inherently hostile and needs to die or else it'll kill everyone despite being a genuine pacifist.

If a blob doesn't automatically spread then the blob HAS to win or lose. The same could also apply to clock cult in the past (and that one ancient antag who was just a npc involving the 7 sins, I believe?) now that I think about it however the round will never end by normal player actions until the blob wins/loses or a fucking nuke op spawns.

Very few antags are actually required to win or genuinely lose. In theory, you can literally be on friendly terms with nightmares, spiders, swarmers, space dragons, deathsquads, slaughter demons, etc etc. Being genuinely friendly with a blob isn't possible without it killing you or you killing it at some point.
EOBGames wrote:
Ayy Lemoh wrote:I strongly disagree. The best midround antag, in terms of both rp and gameplay, is unironically abductor however it's not for personal bias reasons that I am known for having. It is because it adds to the round, isn't inherently chaotic, and actually has some roleplay involved.

Come on Jerry we all know you're a baldie fanboy.

yeah but im right though

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Tarchonvaagh
 
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:30 am #576041

Blobbernauts and spores cant talk anymore, only emote
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iamgoofball
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:16 pm #576093

Tarchonvaagh wrote:Blobbernauts and spores cant talk anymore, only emote

No, it's an ability the Overmind has.

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Cobby
 
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Re: [MRP] Fuck Dynamic, don't put it on Manuel.

Postby Cobby » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:29 pm #576102

You can already configure blob as its own ruleset so really that's a plus for dynamic either way since the weight is malleable, not sure how we got distracted here.
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