Let Pirates Murderbone on Manuel

[Armhulen]

I'm sorry, but an armed gunship from space should be allowed to kill freely. It's kind of unreasonable to ask the space pirates to ransom and loot the station, give them a ton of guns, give them a ship that the station must seek out and destroy, BUT HAVE THE CLAUSE TO WHERE THEY CANNOT KILL FREELY. My argument is that while interesting situations can come out of pirates, they should be able to actually be space pirates: killing people, taking swag, and owning the station. If you allow the other gunship full of people with weapons that the station has to kill, nuke ops, murderbone, why wouldn't pirates be allowed to as well.

Pirates mass murdering is about sending a message, nothing more. The crew committed to this course of action when they refused to pay the initial ransom.

The initial message even mentions making people "walk the plank" if the money isn't surrendered, and does not actually specify anyone specific, implying they plan on killing all crew members they find.

Pirates that just ignore stealing valuables to murderbone aren't the super best at RP, but they are performing the job of punishing an uncooperative victim. Threats don't mean anything if not backed up, after all, and a threat of "give use money or we'll come get it ourselves and maybe kill anyone we happen to cross" doesn't carry the same weight as "pay us or we kill the lot of you" .

[Armhulen]

I actually thought pirates could antagonize freely on manuel as they're a hostile force until a player said they got warned as a pirate for attacking someone in the hallways. Come on, that's so restrictive.

[Farquaar]

Yarr, avast, scallywags.
Please allow us to peacefully skulk around yer vessel while we cat burgle yer booty.

[Kel]

arent crew literally worth money for the wealth teleporter? if so this just reinforces their design for being combative.

[NoxVS]

Yeah pirates is one of the antags that made me realize the disparity in enforcement of rule 5 and 6. Pirates can't attack people, but the crew can pretty much murder a pirate on sight for robbing the entire station.

[Sheodir]

I agree Armhulen from the /tg/station family of Space Station 13 servers

[cybersaber101]

It's a weird balance. One thing I wouldn't want to see is someone picking pirate, going to the station and then just killing people on sight ignoring loot.

[NoxVS]

I think the issue is how the definition of murderbone has been expanded to the point where

murder = murderbone

[XDTM]

I think the issue is how the definition of murderbone has been expanded to the point where

murder = murderbone

I suspect this kind of thing happens because the kind of person who likes murderboning will likely ignore the nuance required by any definition more permissive than "no killing", and between allowing murderbone and restricting legitimate killing the latter is a bit more preferrable for an rp-friendly environment.

[NecromancerAnne]

While technically removing a ton of people from the round, it would be nice if pirates could more easily kidnap people back to the ship since, you know, they get rewarded for that. That's one of the few reasons why they'd ever want to randomly attack people. For ransom.

(It could also just follow the contractor formula and have them sent back to the station)

[Dezupher]

Pirates should be able to kill people without getting bwoinked.

But pirates showing up to completely ignore their objective to plasmaflood, sabotage the SM, bomb the station, subvert the AI, cremate every body they can and kill people on the escape shuttle is a bit lame for the RP server. People taking every opportunity and excuse they can find to do things like that is probably the entire reason the no murderbone rule exists. People don't want to see shitty murderbone on the RP server.

Pirates hopping on board the station, attacking and terrorizing everyone on their way to steal stuff from the station is cool. Killing people and engaging with the crew, literally ransoming back the bodies to the station is something pirates should be allowed and encouraged to do no matter how many people they end up killing in the process.

[Misdoubtful]

In my experience when its pirates time, it results in a large portion of the crew gearing up and things turning into a station vs. bad guys moment.

The rule just works to restrict things outside the inevitability of this area, at the time when pirates are being perceived and acted upon as a station wide threat. But for where that line should get drawn for this trend is a different discussion.

So its probably better to ask things this way, what does the antag not being able to murder-bone accomplish? No 'yarr plasma flood matey', or 'avast ye business mindin' crews time t' walk the plank into th' mass cannon'? In truth it points things towards RP and not, kill kill kill.

Pirates should be able to kill people without getting bwoinked.

But pirates showing up to completely ignore their objective to plasmaflood, sabotage the SM, bomb the station, subvert the AI, cremate every body they can and kill people on the escape shuttle is a bit lame for the RP server. People taking every opportunity and excuse they can find to do things like that is probably the entire reason the no murderbone rule exists. People don't want to see shitty murderbone on the RP server.

Pirates hopping on board the station, attacking and terrorizing everyone on their way to steal stuff from the station is cool. Killing people and engaging with the crew, literally ransoming back the bodies to the station is something pirates should be allowed and encouraged to do no matter how many people they end up killing in the process.

Basically, this.

The crew shutting down pirates quickly in mass adds to the round as little as wanton killing of crew by pirates does.

[Armhulen]

Pirates should be able to kill people without getting bwoinked.

But pirates showing up to completely ignore their objective to plasmaflood, sabotage the SM, bomb the station, subvert the AI, cremate every body they can and kill people on the escape shuttle is a bit lame for the RP server. People taking every opportunity and excuse they can find to do things like that is probably the entire reason the no murderbone rule exists. People don't want to see shitty murderbone on the RP server.

Pirates hopping on board the station, attacking and terrorizing everyone on their way to steal stuff from the station is cool. Killing people and engaging with the crew, literally ransoming back the bodies to the station is something pirates should be allowed and encouraged to do no matter how many people they end up killing in the process.

Nuke ops can freely murderbone, but it still wouldn't be cool if they did what you talked about. To the point where you ignore your objective that hard as a team antag AND global station threat is to where it becomes an issue

[Cobby]

No thanks. The point of the role is to be money-oriented, not kill the station. If those two conflict they are already permitted to kill off people.

Murderboning is "hiding in maint picking off people because you can" or "lol time to plasmaflood/bomb because lol!!!", not killing people who get in your way of completing your objectives which they should be allowed to do already.

If you want to run a gimmick where you are taking hostages or something then idc if you kill a few people for the overall crew to enjoy the experience, if we cant nuance between that and the other more obvious situations which the word murderboning entails we have a problem not limited to the scope of the pirate role.

You should tell the individual to give you more context and/or put up a complaint instead :^)

[Farquaar]

No thanks. The point of the role is to be money-oriented, not kill the station. If those two conflict they are already permitted to kill off people.

Murderboning is "hiding in maint picking off people because you can" or "lol time to plasmaflood/bomb because lol!!!", not killing people who get in your way of completing your objectives which they should be allowed to do already.

If you want to run a gimmick where you are taking hostages or something then idc if you kill a few people for the overall crew to enjoy the experience, if we cant nuance between that and the other more obvious situations which the word murderboning entails we have a problem not limited to the scope of the pirate role.

Where does "Plundering department to department stealing everything valuable and shooting everyone who didn't run away" fall on that scale?

[Cobby]

It's part of your objective/design to plunder. It's part of your objective to capture bodies to sell iirc. Murderboning is uncharacteristic of your character in the same way you would consider powergaming uncharacteristic actions for the crew.

[Farquaar]

It's part of your objective/design to plunder. It's part of your objective to capture bodies to sell iirc. Murderboning is uncharacteristic of your character in the same way you would consider powergaming uncharacteristic actions for the crew.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t answer my question. Murderboning is a vague and undescriptive term, hence why I asked you if the actions I described contituted murderboning.

[Agux909]

What IS/ISNT Murderboning?

Murderboning refers to killing a large portion of the station's population. Generally, if you're going room to room in a staffed department and openly killing everyone present, you're probably murderboning. Killing people who aren’t included in your objectives is not murderboning. Killing members of a crowd trying to take you down, witnesses to a murder you commited, or crewmembers pursuing you are not qualified as murderboning; though they may end with a high killcount.

These actions should be a LAST resort, not something actively sought out to evade restrictions.

[Cobby]

Unfortunately, that doesn’t answer my question. Murderboning is a vague and undescriptive term, hence why I asked you if the actions I described contituted murderboning.

It falls in the "killing people who get in your way of completing your objectives which they should be allowed to do already" side of the balance.

I agree murderboning is vague hence why I am very much against permitting it in most cases unless the role is designed specifically to be this force of evil with an explicit drive to see the crew in it's entirety killed.

[Armhulen]

Everyone will get in the way of your job as a roving space pirate. They all have valuables on them.

[Cobby]

Then the ability to "murdebone" already exists and you're still mad about an admin ruling and nothing of value was gained.

If you kill someone because of their loot i expect you to loot them and not just clear out the next available department.

[NecromancerAnne]

What loot is there even to be gained? Again, as I mentioned, taking live captives is strictly a more desirable outcome for pirates because they can sell them off for more money. It's just near impossible to do, because pirates have next to no easy means of transporting someone from the station to their ship, in space. No nonlethal weapons, no transportation tools, not even fucking cable cuffs.

They can't even kidnap station pets for the payouts.

I don't think pirates should be murderboning. Quite the opposite. They should be kidnapping. But the code is heavily restrictive of this, and they need a lot of help to be able to achieve that. right now, they are strictly kitted for murderboning. I think it'd need some code help before it ever sees a good answer that isn't at odds to how they've been equipped. It's all fine and dandy for a pirate to be expected only to loot and pillage as they go, but when half of their nonlethal incentives can't be utilized without raiding security and murdering their way through it presumably, Things will inevitably escalate either way.

[Armhulen]

They're not great for kidnapping because they've been entirely designed to not be kidnappers? I bet you can make a lotta money on manuel from it, but other servers won't listen to that idea.

[NecromancerAnne]

Their theft machine gives you money for live captures. It's not roleplay. It's mechanical.

Or...last I was aware about it anyway.

[Armhulen]

Their theft machine gives you money for live captures. It's not roleplay. It's mechanical.

Or...last I was aware about it anyway.

Big if true, but believe me I was talking about humans being valuable in every other way haha

[zxaber]

Pirates mass murdering is about sending a message, nothing more. The crew committed to this course of action when they refused to pay the initial ransom.

The initial message even mentions making people "walk the plank" if the money isn't surrendered, and does not actually specify anyone specific, implying they plan on killing all crew members they find.

Pirates that just ignore stealing valuables to murderbone aren't the super best at RP, but they are performing the job of punishing an uncooperative victim. Threats don't mean anything if not backed up, after all, and a threat of "give use money or we'll come get it ourselves and maybe kill anyone we happen to cross" doesn't carry the same weight as "pay us or we kill the lot of you" .

[Armhulen]

Pirates mass murdering is about sending a message, nothing more. The crew committed to this course of action when they refused to pay the initial ransom.

The initial message even mentions making people "walk the plank" if the money isn't surrendered, and does not actually specify anyone specific, implying they plan on killing all crew members they find.

Pirates that just ignore stealing valuables to murderbone aren't the super best at RP, but they are performing the job of punishing an uncooperative victim. Threats don't mean anything if not backed up, after all, and a threat of "give use money or we'll come get it ourselves and maybe kill anyone we happen to cross" doesn't carry the same weight as "pay us or we kill the lot of you" .

Insanely based, this is just the best post policy discussion has gotten in a long time and I couldn't agree more. IN FACT, i'm adding it to my op

[SkeletalElite]

The "Ransom" happens before they even spawn and the station can stop them from spawning by paying it. In that regard I think they should be allowed to murderbone because that's how pirates make sure their ransom's carry weight, by absolutely brutalizing people who do not comply.

But then again I don't play MRP so I don't really care.

[XDTM]

If we rationalize murderboning this way, pirates will eventually be expected to go in guns blazing when raiding the station, since they'll be supposed to be the deterrent to convince people to pay the ransom.

Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, but if pirates were supposed to have the option to use stealth as a tactic, they'll be discouraged from doing so if they're meant to be a punishment to the crew instead of just taking the ransom by brute force.

[Stickymayhem]

If we rationalize murderboning this way, pirates will eventually be expected to go in guns blazing when raiding the station, since they'll be supposed to be the deterrent to convince people to pay the ransom.

Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, but if pirates were supposed to have the option to use stealth as a tactic, they'll be discouraged from doing so if they're meant to be a punishment to the crew instead of just taking the ransom by brute force.

As skeletons with no alternative outfits and a large centcom announcement accompanying them, they were never really a stealth antag

[Armhulen]

And yet manuel sometimes does it, and no, i don't think that will stop

[Stickymayhem]

And yet manuel sometimes does it, and no, i don't think that will stop

I'm not saying stealth pirating isn't acceptable, just that it's already discouraged by the set up they have

[XDTM]

Stealth aside, there is a difference in attacking a location to gather loot and attacking a location to murder; if pirates-as-punishment becomes mainstream, the loot gathering will fade into the background much like wizard objectives already have, unless they get a mechanical advantage out of it.

In my opinion pirates should either be
A) the murdering enforcers discussed here, sent to punish the lack of random, who only loot as an extra form of damage to the station or to get extra equipment during the raid
or
B) tax collectors who have an interest in getting their due as well as leaving the station functional to get another ransom the next time payday comes around (any form of resistance will still be gunned down, of course)

Trying to uphold both at the same time will likely result in policy confusion between people who believe pirates are one or the other.

[Misdoubtful]

I'm still not sure what changing the label from can't murderbone to can murderbone is supposed to accomplish?

What is the actually intended purpose here?

How is this going to change pirates from how they are now?

Not much has been said on what will happen, or what actual change is wanted here — mostly justification of opinion rather than expected outcome.

They already can kill, they already can loot, and they already can enforce their swagger on the station. What says they can't?

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

/datum/antagonist/pirate/greet()
   to_chat(owner, "<span class='boldannounce'>You are a Space Pirate!</span>")
   to_chat(owner, "<B>The station refused to pay for your protection, protect the ship, siphon the credits from the station and raid it for even more loot.</B>")
   owner.announce_objectives()


---

Maybe its because I still find it incredibly hard to believe that killing crew to achieve your pirate objectives matey could ACTUALLY be considered murder-bone. Things like plasma flooding pirates and pirates expressly trying to wipe the station, that could be a different story though, and thats what removing the restriction WOULD enable, and it WOULD be a potential result. Why would pirates want to burn all their loot or kill all the potential hostages they could get information from, sell, ransom, etc.?

When the station is already perceiving you as a threat and getting in your way, is it actually murder-bone to kill them? No, because it'd be stupid to have to lie down and die because Valid McGee detected you. But why would a free pass for going out of the way to stomp the entire station make things better?

In essence, what would all of this provide for the actual IC experience?

Side note, this:

Then the ability to "murdebone" already exists and you're still mad about an admin ruling and nothing of value was gained.

If you kill someone because of their loot i expect you to loot them and not just clear out the next available department.

Murderboning is "hiding in maint picking off people because you can" or "lol time to plasmaflood/bomb because lol!!!", not killing people who get in your way of completing your objectives which they should be allowed to do already.

Maybe the issue has more to do with the definition of murder-bone currently provided for Manuel, because I'm not trying to grasp for straws and find some logic to cling to here as if its a maze on the back of a cereal box with the answers to life's greatest questions.

Otherwise call me crazy but enabling a lack of RP play-style that can't be resolved with RP is counter productive to actual RP.

[Farquaar]

In essence, what would all of this provide for the actual IC experience?

Ideally, we wouldn't see complete indifference on part of the crew when they see pirates anymore.

[Misdoubtful]

In essence, what would all of this provide for the actual IC experience?

Ideally, we wouldn't see complete indifference on part of the crew when they see pirates anymore.

Completely understandable. This seems to be an issue in general though. Things like "xenos?!?!?" can very often get called out on common multiple times throughout a round with xenos in it and people just being unaware of their presence even when its been say, captain announced multiple times. With nothing coming as a result.

[Armhulen]

In essence, what would all of this provide for the actual IC experience?

Allow players more freedom in playing a global round threat, and encourage more round progression.

[BrianBackslide]

If pirates are supposed to be a legitimate threat and a "punishment" for failing to pay the ransom, then they should probably be better armed for what they're doing. A mech or miner can easily deal with them, as well as borgs can lock them out of their own ship, and that's not even getting into sec, who actually have tools for handling pirates.

Point I'm trying to make is that I don't have a problem with pirates killing everyone to "send a message" because that's what the ransom is for; to prevent that scenario. What I'm saying is that if even xenos are treated halfheartedly, then pirates are definitely not set up to be considered anything more than a nuisance.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

If pirates are supposed to be a legitimate threat and a "punishment" for failing to pay the ransom, then they should probably be better armed for what they're doing. A mech or miner can easily deal with them, as well as borgs can lock them out of their own ship, and that's not even getting into sec, who actually have tools for handling pirates.

I agree with this, especially on the topic of "kidnapping crew" - antags that are meant to kidnap typically have specialized, highly powerful tools to kidnap people with. Xenomorphs have their neurotoxin super-stun spit or a hunter's insane movement and lunge. Cultists have cult stun - 12 second hardstun and can appear at a moments notice, capable of being made with naught but a blood spell from your cult dagger. Abductors and Contractors both have their advanced baton, that stuns, cuffs, and sleeps all in one baton! Heretics... don't really have this but they're crewmembers with access to things like cablecuffs or chems and can be a lot "stealthier" than Mr. Bones and his gang of rattling ruffians.

If a pirate, who's easily identifiable by an AI or anyone with a medhud, or even just eyes to see that they're a skeleton can't be allowed to go out and make their job easier by cleaning up a bit of the station's resistance, they should get a significantly more powerful method of stopping this resistance when they inevitably have to fight them - and in a non-lethal manner too, if kidnapping is supposed to be a primary objective.



As an aside, do you really expect a pirate crew to leave a crewmember, who could be spending time on the station grabbing loot, on the shuttle to manage the turrets just to kidnap people that you then have to get their internals on and possibly even a suit too? Seriously? I understand that "kidnapping people and ransoming them off/totally not enslaving them" is a pirate-y thing to do, but it's kind of hard when you're outgunned and outnumbered on a station that has full rights to kill you on sight.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Thoroughly low effort and unbased takes all-around, here.

Bad: pirates murderboning.
Also bad: people immediately killing pirates on sight no questions asked.

How about giving them a chance to try to steal things or take hostages or negotiate ransom, and let the escalation happen naturally through RP?

Something I saw that really bummed me out hard, when Manuel was new, was this one round where pirates spawned. Hadn't stolen anything yet, hadn't hurt anyone. One of them boarded the ship and and over comms demanded to talk to the Captain. A seccie saw him standing around, and before the pirate could even type anything, just lasered him to death. I really felt bad for that guy, all he was trying to do was introduce a little RP flair to an antagonist role.

I had hoped Manuel would move away from the "VALID/NOT VALID" bullshit but it keeps getting comfier with it.

[Blurbo]

pirates are brittle as shit,let them murderbone
also "DIPLOMATICALLY TALK WITH THE CREW TO TAKE THEIR MONEY" is the most retarded shit ive ever heard

[Armhulen]

Also bad: people immediately killing pirates on sight no questions asked.

Excuse me? It's not realistic that I would give any mercy to a pirate in any way, shape or form. Even with traitors, if you point a gun at security, I don't understand why people are like "THE SEC GUY SHOULD HAVE ROLEPLAYED IT OUT" like it's just straight up Bar Roleplay (tm) to just be cool with pirates coming on board to loot, kidnap, and harvest organs.

The antagonists should be free to antagonize. The station should be free to stop antagonism without making every itty bitty thing an admin issue. Allow the interesting moments and cease fires to happen ORGANICALLY instead of playing a station assault like it's a family reunion

[Armhulen]

Also bad: people immediately killing pirates on sight no questions asked.

Excuse me? It's not realistic that I would give any mercy to a pirate in any way, shape or form. Even with traitors, if you point a gun at security, I don't understand why people are like "THE SEC GUY SHOULD HAVE ROLEPLAYED IT OUT" like it's just straight up Bar Roleplay (tm) to just be cool with pirates coming on board to loot, kidnap, and harvest organs.

The antagonists should be free to antagonize. The station should be free to stop antagonism without making every itty bitty thing an admin issue. Allow the interesting moments and cease fires to happen ORGANICALLY instead of playing a station assault like it's a family reunion

And as an extention of my thoughts, the reason why manuel all too often has trouble progressing the round with antagonism is because Antagonists are too afraid to actually act out their roles as evil terrorists or spacefaring pirates (see second post) and the players are trying to befriend each antag that comes on board.

I've seen a group of nukeops lose, with the last one spending the entire round just walking around without any of their gear talking to people. That's like, incredibly uncool and not what "Medium Roleplay" means.

[Jack7D1]

Do not enact this change please

[Armhulen]

Do not enact this change please

You'll have to give me more than a honk of your nose to convince me clown

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Also bad: people immediately killing pirates on sight no questions asked.

Excuse me? It's not realistic that I would give any mercy to a pirate in any way, shape or form. Even with traitors, if you point a gun at security, I don't understand why people are like "THE SEC GUY SHOULD HAVE ROLEPLAYED IT OUT" like it's just straight up Bar Roleplay (tm) to just be cool with pirates coming on board to loot, kidnap, and harvest organs.

It is not a binary choice between immediately wordlessly killing other players with zero room for "DROP THE GUN!", and "being cool" with them actively being violent.

The antagonists should be free to antagonize.

They are, I have no idea why people still imply they're not.

And as an extention of my thoughts, the reason why manuel all too often has trouble progressing the round with antagonism is because Antagonists are too afraid to actually act out their roles as evil terrorists or spacefaring pirates (see second post) and the players are trying to befriend each antag that comes on board.

There have been so little ban appeals regarding antags breaking rule 5 that I cannot begin to figure out where this notion is coming from and why it's still being shoveled around.
If anything a complaint I hear is that on Manuel antags play extremely boringly in sticking to greentext at all costs instead of trying to do interesting things.

The station should be free to stop antagonism without making every itty bitty thing an admin issue. Allow the interesting moments and cease fires to happen ORGANICALLY instead of playing a station assault like it's a family reunion

Why do you think rule 6 exists? In lack of admin intervention how much of these interesting moments ORGANICALLY happen on LRP?
The more you move towards allowing people to murderbone or KoS the more you are diminishing the potential for these things.

[Misdoubtful]

Also bad: people immediately killing pirates on sight no questions asked.

Excuse me? It's not realistic that I would give any mercy to a pirate in any way, shape or form. Even with traitors, if you point a gun at security, I don't understand why people are like "THE SEC GUY SHOULD HAVE ROLEPLAYED IT OUT" like it's just straight up Bar Roleplay (tm) to just be cool with pirates coming on board to loot, kidnap, and harvest organs.

The antagonists should be free to antagonize. The station should be free to stop antagonism without making every itty bitty thing an admin issue. Allow the interesting moments and cease fires to happen ORGANICALLY instead of playing a station assault like it's a family reunion

Not being open to improv doesn't open the doors to story and RP. The things Manuel has a heart in. And you aren't alone in that approach. Its not a bad approach, but how does it create interesting story and RP if the crew immediately suits up at the armory and stomps on the pirates?

The amount of pirates I've seen get dunked on for trying to RP conflict besides resorting to guns blazing murder is disappointingly large.

You then move to state:

And as an extention of my thoughts, the reason why manuel all too often has trouble progressing the round with antagonism is because Antagonists are too afraid to actually act out their roles as evil terrorists or spacefaring pirates (see second post) and the players are trying to befriend each antag that comes on board.

Why would antags want to have anything to do with story and RP based conflict if the approach of no mercy is going to be used?

This is part of the fundamental issue that pirates (and other antags) is facing.

It should be about role-play. Not either side looking at things with the intent of squashing the other, and not either side looking to stomp each other simply because they have the ability to.

Having the scales tip in unfavorable odds for either side makes for boring or lackluster game-play in the world of Manuel. In the same way that executing all the antags thirty minutes into a two hour round and then wondering why things are so boring does. Bad faith breeds bad faith, bad sportsmanship breeds bad sportsmanship.

I said it in my last post and I'll say it again, but how does ticking off the murder-bone tick box impact things IC? To further build on that question, does it create space for more story and RP, or is it solely to force a round along? What kind of story and RP gets generated when either side is just mopped up by wanton murder and express intent to win? Does any story or RP get generated? You tell me.

[Armhulen]

You miss the simple point: Roleplay will always happen on manuel, if you force it you don't get an active working round progression. It needs to happen organically and if people don't want it to happen organically they won't join manuel.

[Farquaar]

[Misdoubtful]

You miss the simple point: Roleplay will always happen on manuel, if you force it you don't get an active working round progression. It needs to happen organically and if people don't want it to happen organically they won't join manuel.

I can understand that, rounds commonly last hours longer than they should, and I agree it can turn into an issue.

I myself am big on the idea of more conflict, minor, major, you name it. Whatever could progress a round even if sometimes its doesn't have the healthiest origin.

I'm not sure personally how murder-bone specifically would help is all.