MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

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MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:49 pm #577124

This was the stupidest idea ever, for real. Fix it already.

They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.



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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:50 pm #577125

Anything goes if it can reasonably achieve one's objective.
Naloac wrote:Since you have asked for a *community opinion* and im the player voted admin. Ill give you my official opinion straight from the *community* Your fucking retarded

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:53 pm #577126

wesoda25 wrote:Anything goes if it can reasonably achieve one's objective.
The logical conclusion of this is that if you have a single assassinate objective that you can use maxcaps on a whim even if it has only a remote chance of hitting your target.

This is not the direction Manuel has or would benefit from, in my opinion.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:59 pm #577127

You know you can have an MRP server with mass murder, right?

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:12 am #577128

I'd think it a good time to consider changing the objective itself. Here is an attempt by kevin over on cit that makes it a kind of last stand.

https://github.com/Citadel-Station-13/C ... pull/10649

It also happens to solve one of the biggest flaws of hijack. You can't have anyone on the shuttle but people can easily beat it by hiding in the walls at the back of the shuttle.

This change makes it a requirement to stop the shuttle redirection directly. And so it is far more reasonable to expect traitors to not have to murderbone for this objective. It was always a terrible objective and the fsct it demands mass murder is mostly as a consequence of it being a bad objective.

I think personally that this is a policy problem that should be helped along with some code changes. Objectives as a whole could obviously use a relooking but this particular one could be made better for future use. Also, hijacking a shuttle can be exciting and fun if it's one man with a gun in the cockpit. You know, like an actual hijacking.

(Sky Marshall role when?)

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby SkeletalElite » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:56 am #577132

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Anything goes if it can reasonably achieve one's objective.
The logical conclusion of this is that if you have a single assassinate objective that you can use maxcaps on a whim even if it has only a remote chance of hitting your target.

This is not the direction Manuel has or would benefit from, in my opinion.


If you use a maxcap for an assassinations that seems perfectly reasonable to me as long as you're not using it as an execuse to blow up anything and everything but instead as a reliable non suspicious way of taking out your target.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby NoxVS » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:03 am #577134

The murderbone exemption for hijack is required because of how poorly defined murderbone is to the point where some people just consider murder in general to be murderbone
Last edited by NoxVS on Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:28 am #577138

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Anything goes if it can reasonably achieve one's objective.
The logical conclusion of this is that if you have a single assassinate objective that you can use maxcaps on a whim even if it has only a remote chance of hitting your target.

This is not the direction Manuel has or would benefit from, in my opinion.

Allow me to rephrase that: Anything within reason goes if it can achieve one’s objectives. Since hijacking is directly linked with the number of crew trying to board the shuttle at round end, thinning the stations pop is a reasonable strategy to make it easier.

If your objective was to kill a person, it would not be reasonable to thin the stations population.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby BrianBackslide » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:30 am #577139

I thought the point of allowing murderbone for hijack was because you can't reasonably hijack without killing 90% of the crew. I do like the looks of that pr, though.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Armhulen » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:33 am #577140

Can't wait to get a pm from an admin because i'm killing people with a hijack the shuttle and send it to the syndicate base objective. #antagfreedom
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:49 am #577167

Armhulen wrote:Can't wait to get a pm from an admin because i'm killing people with a hijack the shuttle and send it to the syndicate base objective. #antagfreedom
You've played a whopping one round on Manuel since February so I don't think you have to worry about this.

I wrote:They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.
If you object to this explain why.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:51 am #577168

wesoda25 wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Anything goes if it can reasonably achieve one's objective.
The logical conclusion of this is that if you have a single assassinate objective that you can use maxcaps on a whim even if it has only a remote chance of hitting your target.

This is not the direction Manuel has or would benefit from, in my opinion.

Allow me to rephrase that: Anything within reason goes if it can achieve one’s objectives. Since hijacking is directly linked with the number of crew trying to board the shuttle at round end, thinning the stations pop is a reasonable strategy to make it easier.

If your objective was to kill a person, it would not be reasonable to thin the stations population.

Going on a loud murder spree before the shuttle has even been called and making a target of yourself does not increase your chances of being able to successfully hijack the shuttle.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:12 pm #577182

NecromancerAnne wrote:I'd think it a good time to consider changing the objective itself. Here is an attempt by kevin over on cit that makes it a kind of last stand.

https://github.com/Citadel-Station-13/C ... pull/10649

It also happens to solve one of the biggest flaws of hijack. You can't have anyone on the shuttle but people can easily beat it by hiding in the walls at the back of the shuttle.

This change makes it a requirement to stop the shuttle redirection directly. And so it is far more reasonable to expect traitors to not have to murderbone for this objective. It was always a terrible objective and the fsct it demands mass murder is mostly as a consequence of it being a bad objective.

I think personally that this is a policy problem that should be helped along with some code changes. Objectives as a whole could obviously use a relooking but this particular one could be made better for future use. Also, hijacking a shuttle can be exciting and fun if it's one man with a gun in the cockpit. You know, like an actual hijacking.

(Sky Marshall role when?)
This looks pretty good, have you seen it in action?
Does it look like an easy port?

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:43 pm #577192

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
I wrote:They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.
If you object to this explain why.


Okay so here's my objection: You cannot win a hijack through doing this except on extreme lowpop. You just can't hope to win 1 vs 40 as the entire crew grabs all their gear, loot, and treasure and piles into evac for the closing minutes of the shuttle to await evacuation. The two main strategies for Hijack have always realistically been "Kill enough people that there isnt a serious opposition when the shuttle arrives" or "sneakily sabotage escape and break into the shuttlebridge from space to quicklaunch, then fight the one or two people who do manage to board anyway."
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Agux909 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:26 pm #577195

I never understood why hijack=murderbone.

Any change making the objective more interesting for the antag and for the crew, and less binary (kill all=win; dont kill all=lose) would be very welcomed.
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Armhulen » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:49 pm #577201

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Can't wait to get a pm from an admin because i'm killing people with a hijack the shuttle and send it to the syndicate base objective. #antagfreedom
You've played a whopping one round on Manuel since February so I don't think you have to worry about this.


ADMINNIN' UP TO 8 ROUNDS ON MANUEL IN ONE DAY IS NOT ENOUGH TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE SERVER, YOU MUST ALSO SUCK AND FUCK THE GRIZZLY COCK OF EACH MEMBER IN LAST ROUND'S DEPARTMENT, AND FUCK OFF TO SPACE IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF DOING YOUR JOB TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW IT FEELS TO BE A MANUELLIAN.
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(please stop cutting people from the conversation if they've been on the server for a reasonable amount of time. antagonists are a core part of the game. short of afking in the lobby, any kind of interaction with the server will show the same issues with antags everyone on this thread with a lick of time connected has seen)
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 pm #577202

Armhulen wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Can't wait to get a pm from an admin because i'm killing people with a hijack the shuttle and send it to the syndicate base objective. #antagfreedom
You've played a whopping one round on Manuel since February so I don't think you have to worry about this.


ADMINNIN' UP TO 8 ROUNDS ON MANUEL IN ONE DAY IS NOT ENOUGH TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE SERVER, YOU MUST ALSO SUCK AND FUCK THE GRIZZLY COCK OF EACH MEMBER IN LAST ROUND'S DEPARTMENT, AND FUCK OFF TO SPACE IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF DOING YOUR JOB TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW IT FEELS TO BE A MANUELLIAN.
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(please stop cutting people from the conversation if they've been on the server for a reasonable amount of time. antagonists are a core part of the game. short of afking in the lobby, any kind of interaction with the server will show the same issues with antags everyone on this thread with a lick of time connected has seen)

What conversation? You made a substanceless sardonic reply so you got one in return.
Or is your position actually that hijack antagonists should definitely be on Manuel, they should definitely murderbone, and anything less is unthinkable?

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Armhulen » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:18 pm #577203

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Can't wait to get a pm from an admin because i'm killing people with a hijack the shuttle and send it to the syndicate base objective. #antagfreedom
You've played a whopping one round on Manuel since February so I don't think you have to worry about this.


ADMINNIN' UP TO 8 ROUNDS ON MANUEL IN ONE DAY IS NOT ENOUGH TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE SERVER, YOU MUST ALSO SUCK AND FUCK THE GRIZZLY COCK OF EACH MEMBER IN LAST ROUND'S DEPARTMENT, AND FUCK OFF TO SPACE IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF DOING YOUR JOB TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW IT FEELS TO BE A MANUELLIAN.
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(please stop cutting people from the conversation if they've been on the server for a reasonable amount of time. antagonists are a core part of the game. short of afking in the lobby, any kind of interaction with the server will show the same issues with antags everyone on this thread with a lick of time connected has seen)

What conversation? You made a substanceless sardonic reply so you got one in return.
Or is your position actually that hijack antagonists should definitely be on Manuel, they should definitely murderbone, and anything less is unthinkable?

Almost. I think the "anything less" part happens anyways. People decide to do more interesting tactics to hijack because it's manuel. What you ask of them is very unreasonable and actually draws out the round really long. We still need to find a way for manuel to "go to shit" by the hand of antagonists, because as it is it's only round threatening antagonists like nuke ops and very end of the line events that will do it. Traitors themselves feel pretty one and done when they do actually progress the round EXCEPT for hijack, which makes it my favorite rounds to watch.


There's definitely a code solution (read: giving manuel traitors a new kill target/objective when they complete an objective) for keeping traitors traitoring.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Armhulen » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:27 pm #577204

Actually, the more I think about it the happier I am with the idea of traitors getting more and more objectives as they go on. On the other servers, traitors are always a threat because they can do as they please, kill as they please. This isn't the same on Manuel, so we should give them more and more objectives so they never "finish" being a traitor.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Misdoubtful » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:28 pm #577205

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:You cannot win a hijack through doing this except on extreme lowpop. You just can't hope to win 1 vs 40 as the entire crew grabs all their gear, loot, and treasure and piles into evac for the closing minutes of the shuttle to await evacuation. The two main strategies for Hijack have always realistically been "Kill enough people that there isnt a serious opposition when the shuttle arrives" or "sneakily sabotage escape and break into the shuttlebridge from space to quicklaunch, then fight the one or two people who do manage to board anyway."


I gotta agree with this, 100%. It just makes sense to me.

I've got a lot of questions about the initial approach of:

They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.


Is this going to result in the objective getting railroaded into being super specific to complete? Doesn't this stifle creativity on a server that gives a lot more time to do things like complete antag' gimmicks?

How does this reflect on the rounds being two hours sometimes longer and people getting all the gears and loots by the time they leave?

What does the antag do if the round is literally taking forever, and how much room does this give for a hijacker to get the shuttle called?

If they have to focus solely on when the shuttle comes instead of having the option to create a build up for it, what does that do for the health of the round?

Does the round have the potential to turn into:
nothing happening and people decide to 'go home'
BAM
the shuttle is vaporized
the round ends
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Misdoubtful » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:31 pm #577206

Armhulen wrote:Actually, the more I think about it the happier I am with the idea of traitors getting more and more objectives as they go on. On the other servers, traitors are always a threat because they can do as they please, kill as they please. This isn't the same on Manuel, so we should give them more and more objectives so they never "finish" being a traitor.


I've always kind of liked the idea of traitors just being sort of like the contractor bundle option and getting more objectives and more TC, but I have no idea on any of the actual specifics there.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Armhulen » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:31 pm #577207

Misdoubtful wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Actually, the more I think about it the happier I am with the idea of traitors getting more and more objectives as they go on. On the other servers, traitors are always a threat because they can do as they please, kill as they please. This isn't the same on Manuel, so we should give them more and more objectives so they never "finish" being a traitor.
|

I've always kind of liked the idea of traitors just being sort of like the contractor bundle option, but I have no idea on any of the actual specifics there.

I'll whip up a really basic implementation of this for manuel.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:59 pm #577210

Armhulen wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Can't wait to get a pm from an admin because i'm killing people with a hijack the shuttle and send it to the syndicate base objective. #antagfreedom
You've played a whopping one round on Manuel since February so I don't think you have to worry about this.


ADMINNIN' UP TO 8 ROUNDS ON MANUEL IN ONE DAY IS NOT ENOUGH TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE SERVER, YOU MUST ALSO SUCK AND FUCK THE GRIZZLY COCK OF EACH MEMBER IN LAST ROUND'S DEPARTMENT, AND FUCK OFF TO SPACE IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF DOING YOUR JOB TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW IT FEELS TO BE A MANUELLIAN.
Image

(please stop cutting people from the conversation if they've been on the server for a reasonable amount of time. antagonists are a core part of the game. short of afking in the lobby, any kind of interaction with the server will show the same issues with antags everyone on this thread with a lick of time connected has seen)

What conversation? You made a substanceless sardonic reply so you got one in return.
Or is your position actually that hijack antagonists should definitely be on Manuel, they should definitely murderbone, and anything less is unthinkable?

Almost. I think the "anything less" part happens anyways. People decide to do more interesting tactics to hijack because it's manuel. What you ask of them is very unreasonable and actually draws out the round really long. We still need to find a way for manuel to "go to shit" by the hand of antagonists, because as it is it's only round threatening antagonists like nuke ops and very end of the line events that will do it. Traitors themselves feel pretty one and done when they do actually progress the round EXCEPT for hijack, which makes it my favorite rounds to watch.

If it's thoroughly unacceptable that every round doesn't degrade to a flaming irredeemable pile of shit by the 45 minute mark and a shuttle call is mandated, why has Manuel retained population? Don't you think it's possible the people who play there like it that way? Maybe they won't like your proposed "solution" to this "problem".


Armhulen wrote:There's definitely a code solution (read: giving manuel traitors a new kill target/objective when they complete an objective) for keeping traitors traitoring.

Regardless of the topic at hand I think this sounds good. Don't know much about antag/objective code but it sounds a bit tricky, what if their target dies not by their hand, or if their first target gets revived? And, I still think a customized dynamic for Manuel (ditch rev and cult and wiz, add more midround antags) would be cool, maybe in tandem with that.

Misdoubtful wrote:
They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.


Is this going to result in the objective getting railroaded into being super specific to complete? Doesn't this stifle creativity on a server that gives a lot more time to do things like complete antag' gimmicks?

The argument being presented here is that the only way you can possibly complete hijack is by murderboning, that seems pretty super specific, and lacking in creativity or gimmickyness.
And if it really is true, why not just get rid of it on MRP or change it as per NecromancerAnne's suggestion? We have like SIX OTHER antags or something with the murderbone pass on MRP last I counted, what is so magical and awesome about hijacker murderbone?

I'm lukewarm on the premise that Manuel's round lengths and lack of chaos is a crisis in need of resolution, but even if it is, that murderboning is going to cure it strikes me as a dumb and gross idea.

Misdoubtful wrote:How does this reflect on the rounds being two hours sometimes longer and people getting all the gears and loots by the time they leave?

Goes both ways? I've seen people with hijack on Manuel do stuff like drop lube bombs and time freeze potions in front of the shuttle.

Misdoubtful wrote:What does the antag do if the round is literally taking forever, and how much room does this give for a hijacker to get the shuttle called?

Sabotage perhaps even including some murder to provoke a shuttle call seems acceptable, what is stupid is letting them murderbone, as our current rules do.

Misdoubtful wrote:If they have to focus solely on when the shuttle comes instead of having the option to create a build up for it, what does that do for the health of the round?

See above, but, what does them murderboning do for the health of the round?

Misdoubtful wrote:Does the round have the potential to turn into:
nothing happening and people decide to 'go home'
BAM
the shuttle is vaporized
the round ends

Probably? If the round is going to get dumpstered, I guess I'd personally prefer it happens towards the end of it.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:05 pm #577218

You didn't raise a counterpoint to my pointing out that short of the carbon-copy (and very risky) clutch play of depowering escape at eta 00:30, spacewalking and emagging the bolted doors to lock them down, then emagging/c4ing into the shuttle to quick-launch; I'm not aware of any reasonable way to hijack short of killing everyone / taking advantage of everyone being killed by something else.

If that's so, then I think that it would be far more reasonable to discuss how the hijack objective could be made more interesting than "Kill everyone or hope nobody notices the quicklaunch prep in time" than to propose making traitors have to successfully 1v40 everyone in departures to be allowed to win.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Aeri » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:22 am #577223

NecromancerAnne wrote:I'd think it a good time to consider changing the objective itself. Here is an attempt by kevin over on cit that makes it a kind of last stand.

https://github.com/Citadel-Station-13/C ... pull/10649

It also happens to solve one of the biggest flaws of hijack. You can't have anyone on the shuttle but people can easily beat it by hiding in the walls at the back of the shuttle.

This change makes it a requirement to stop the shuttle redirection directly. And so it is far more reasonable to expect traitors to not have to murderbone for this objective. It was always a terrible objective and the fsct it demands mass murder is mostly as a consequence of it being a bad objective.

I think personally that this is a policy problem that should be helped along with some code changes. Objectives as a whole could obviously use a relooking but this particular one could be made better for future use. Also, hijacking a shuttle can be exciting and fun if it's one man with a gun in the cockpit. You know, like an actual hijacking.

(Sky Marshall role when?)


Idea

There should be an interaction option on the shuttle computer
emagging the shuttle console or deconstructing it and modifying the board with a multitool will redirect the shuttle to syndie HQ.

(The loyalist NT crew can change it back if they notice, much like sending a message to syndicate with comms console)

Bonus points for the more NT crew you kidnap, honk

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby cacogen » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:09 pm #577275

God there are a lot of words here
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby saprasam » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:57 am #577301

what do you expect hijack objective traitors to do, ask the entire fucking station "dont get on the shuttle plz and thank you :3"?
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby XDTM » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:27 am #577310

saprasam wrote:what do you expect hijack objective traitors to do, ask the entire fucking station "dont get on the shuttle plz and thank you :3"?


If an objective can only be accomplished by murderbone there is still an issue, although it's more of a code issue with the objective itself than a policy issue, as others have said.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby confused rock » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:30 pm #577323

Remember internal affairs agents? the traitors with the objective to kill another traitor, who got a new one until every other traitor was dead, after which they got hijack? those were a thing.
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:33 pm #577969

I went ahead and pr'd that port after all. It is now here: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/54146

Depending on maintainer support, hopefully this will push for the removal of necessitating hijack murderboning. At least, not before the shuttle docks.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:55 pm #579342

Annnnnd now that it's merged I want to proposition that his objective still doesn't make it entirely easy to accomplish hijack but I no longer believe it necessary to murderbone to achieve it. Significantly weaken resistance seems far more appropriate, and how that is accomplished is probably at a minimum 'the shuttle is basically free reign' and that's about it.

Taking out security and heads of staff? Probably fine. Room to room depopulation? Probably no unless you genuinely foresee that person being an issue. Mech riding robos. Miners. Those guys.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Flatulent » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:25 pm #579346

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.

and here i thought shitposts were not allowed in policy discussion
bindy liberation front
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cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post

cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.

Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:06 am #579356

Flatulent wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.

and here i thought shitposts were not allowed in policy discussion
Four rounds played on Manuel.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby iksyp » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:10 am #579367

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Four rounds played on Manuel.

the fact that you main assistant and act like your opinion matters makes me chuckle
ignore this poster he has brain damage

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:29 am #579368

iksyp wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Four rounds played on Manuel.

the fact that you main assistant and act like your opinion matters makes me chuckle
11 rounds played on Manuel.

Also pretty sure the majority of my hours on MRP are sec but cool story.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:02 am #579370

just kill the traitor before he kills you midwit
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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:10 am #579375

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Four rounds played on Manuel.
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:11 rounds played on Manuel.

You know how long Manuel rounds are, right? Flatulent has spent 13 hours of his life playing on Manuel. Iksyp has spent 17. You're being elitist if you think that someone needs to spend weeks of their waking life playing on Manuel to have an opinion about its direction.

If your majesty would be so gracious not to dismiss my opinion out of hand (I, heaven's blessings upon me, have played 55 full rounds on Manuel), this fear of 'murderbone' is holding Manuel back. MRP was supposed to be fast paced gameplay, but with people who actually bother roleplaying a character in the midst of the action. The idea that mass murder should be totally unacceptable on Manuel is a farce. Death makes the game interesting. Danger and the struggle to survive makes the game interesting. Nobody likes it if somebody wordlessly stealth murders and gibs every player on the station, but many of us actually have fun trying to take down or survive in the face of a major threat. Believe it or not, you can roleplay during a plasmaflood.

Manuel is drifting away from its original purpose. It's supposed to be the MRP server, not the hugbox server.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:32 am #579380

Farquaar wrote:Manuel is drifting away from its original purpose. It's supposed to be the MRP server, not the hugbox server.

Why did it launch with and still presently has a rule against murderbone?

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Flatulent » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:08 am #579383

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:They should be allowed to kill people in direct pursuit of disallowing them to get on the shuttle when it docks or shortly before, and not use getting hijack objective to act as a traitor as one would on LRP.

and here i thought shitposts were not allowed in policy discussion
Four rounds played on Manuel.

am i missing something here, or is common sense inversely proportional to rounds played?

it is IMPOSSIBLE to hijack on > 30 player stations without starting spaceman genocide from roundstart
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cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post

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Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Misdoubtful » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:59 am #579387

Farquaar wrote:Manuel is drifting away from its original purpose. It's supposed to be the MRP server, not the hugbox server.


I think part of the problem is that if you asked everyone to define 'the MRP server' you'd get a huge spread of varying answers. People on the 'LRP' end, people on the 'HRP' end. Things like, its only MRP if you stop to talk to me, or its only MRP because it has a clown and HRP doesn't. Seriously, just stuff all over the board.

In truth, MRP is not listed or defined in the roleplay rules at all outside of: Please note that a ban on the low roleplay servers is a ban on the medium roleplay server, and vice versa.

[Rules] ...Made for the roleplay server (manuel). If roleplaying isn't your style, every other server still abides by the standard rules.

Nor on the landing page banner:

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And not even when logging into the server itself where the following is provided:

You're currently on the /tg/station roleplay server. This is intended to be a higher-roleplay environment than the other servers, and more importantly there are different rules to abide by here. If roleplaying isn't your style, you can use the Server Hop command to go to any other server, which all still operate on the regular rules. Have fun!


Just uh, food for thought for people.

There is nothing that says the RP can't be chaotic, or slow, or whatever else. Its all semantics.
Hugs

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:47 pm #579429

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Farquaar wrote:Manuel is drifting away from its original purpose. It's supposed to be the MRP server, not the hugbox server.

Why did it launch with and still presently has a rule against murderbone?

You're conflating purpose with purported means to an end.

A 'no murderbone' rule is not a prerequisite for roleplay. It is entirely superfluous, makes the game less fun (for traitors and non-traitors alike), and does barely anything to facilitate roleplay. It should be removed, and definitely should not be expanded.

Misdoubtful wrote:snip

You raise a good point. I think that this lack of a concrete definition of MRP has led more than a few people to believe that Manuel's gameplay is meant to resemble Paradise, rather than a happy medium between Goon and Bay.

As to whether Manuel is intended to be medium roleplay at all, I think that there is little dispute in that regard. Manuel may be referred to shorthand as the 'roleplay' server, but everyone understands it as MRP. Take a look at how people refer to it in policy discussion if you have any doubt.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:54 pm #579432

The murderbone rule isn't to necessarily push a heavier roleplay stance explicitly. It's to keep the server devolving into playstyles already well represented on other servers. The other servers have already been well defined by their players often times making it the sole thing they do regularly. We do not want manuel turning into yet another place for silent terminator types to come one-up each other every time they roll antag. They're not bad players, or is that style necessarily bad, but it is bad for wanting to foster a server where raw combat mechanics are favoured far less than conversation, or cleverness and trickery.

Players often take the route of least resistance when approaching gameplay. So when combat is the easiest to grok and easiest to excel at, people will fall back on it. This results in a lot of players hyperspecializing in only station depopulation. And other people notice this and will emulate it. All we ask is that you aim for some other approach, learn some other technique to your goals, and try your best.

The entire purpose of porting the hijack pr was explicitly to give leg room to how you carry out your goals. Hijack was the only murderbone objective because it wasn't remotely feasible without it. That's it. And since that isn't necessarily the case we don't need to ask that of players any more and we don't need this exception to the rule.

If the only fun you can have is mindlessly killing everyone in site until there are more dead than living players, you will find yourself very happily accomodated on anywhere but Manuel. But it isn't the only way to play the game and claiming anything but this is unfun is highly subjective.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:43 pm #579684

NecromancerAnne wrote:If the only fun you can have is mindlessly killing everyone in site until there are more dead than living players, you will find yourself very happily accomodated on anywhere but Manuel. But it isn't the only way to play the game and claiming anything but this is unfun is highly subjective.

This strawman argument needs to die. Destruction and chaos is not only fun for the player doing the destroying. Destruction fosters conflict and emergent storytelling. Some of the best roleplaying experiences I've had were in maintenance huddled together with survivors of a plasma flood, or getting a speech from the Captain before a manhunt for a crazed spree-killer. I'll never forget the time a security officer saved me when I was door-shocked unconscious during an N2O flood- seeing his reaction when the shuttle was about to leave, and barking orders- ultimately sacrificing himself to make sure I escaped was peak MRP in my eyes. To give every example of how roleplaying was enhanced by antag-induced mortal danger despite not being their target would be impossible.

Those who enjoy this 'survivor roleplay' are not accommodated on Bagil, Sybil, Terry, and if you had your way, Manuel. You want to talk about playstyles accommodated on other servers? Baystation is a perfectly fine place for people who want a high-RP experience, where chaos is tamped down on in favour of structured collaborative storytelling.

For those of us who enjoy both the chaos of Space Station and the stories that come out of roleplaying within that chaos, mass murder isn't a loophole that needs to be removed from Manuel. It's a feature that should be relished and preserved.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:00 pm #579687

Farquaar wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Farquaar wrote:Manuel is drifting away from its original purpose. It's supposed to be the MRP server, not the hugbox server.

Why did it launch with and still presently has a rule against murderbone?

You're conflating purpose with purported means to an end.
The people who dictated Manuel's original purpose put that rule there, subsequent admins have (largely) kept it in place, and a large player base built up in no small part over that rule existing. I've been there since round 1 and talked to tons of people during and post its creation and if you think a sizable portion (read: overwhelming majority) of its player base didn't end up there and stay there because murderboning and tiding was largely promised to be out of the equation or considerably minimized, you're living in strange and deluded reality.

Farquaar wrote:A 'no murderbone' rule is not a prerequisite for roleplay. It is entirely superfluous, makes the game less fun (for traitors and non-traitors alike), and does barely anything to facilitate roleplay. It should be removed, and definitely should not be expanded.
You are not the arbiter of what makes the game fun.
I have no idea how people have convinced themselves that taking the ruleset back in the direction of the LRP rules, of which necessitated the creation of Manuel to begin with, is going to lead to any end result other than TG having a fourth LRP server.
Tell me more about the amazing roleplay AnTaG FrEeDoM will facilitate, when it along with escalation are the primary reasons the servers you just stated don't accommodate roleplay ended up in the state they're at.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:12 pm #579688

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Tell me more about the amazing roleplay AnTaG FrEeDoM will facilitate

You're in luck. I made a post answering this very question just above yours.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:26 pm #579689

Farquaar wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Tell me more about the amazing roleplay AnTaG FrEeDoM will facilitate

You're in luck. I made a post answering this very question just above yours.
The one where you ignored the majority of the post, quoted a tiny portion and argued against a point nobody here was trying to make?
TFW somebody starts a post talking about "strawmen" then proceeds to passionately present one in the next sentence. Holy smokes.

Try to wrap your mind around this: you can think that murderbone being widespread and unilaterally allowed is bad and would lead to unfun results, and also think that fast paced, chaotic, engaging, and dramatic rounds are fun or are at least sometimes fun.
I, in fact, do.

Carry on with your regularly scheduled bad faith posting, I'll be over here ignoring it.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:20 pm #579691

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:The one where you ignored the majority of the post, quoted a tiny portion and argued against a point nobody here was trying to make? TFW somebody starts a post talking about "strawmen" then proceeds to passionately present one in the next sentence. Holy smokes.

Yeah, no. I'm hardly responding to a strawman, considering that you have consistently been posting under the operative assumption that mass murder is unfun and poorly conducive to roleplay. Furthermore, I don't need to subquote every sentence of Anne's post to prove that my reply addresses their points. I respect Anne enough to read their post in full and respond accordingly.
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Try to wrap your mind around this: you can think that murderbone being widespread and unilaterally allowed is bad and would lead to unfun results, and also think that fast paced, chaotic, engaging, and dramatic rounds are fun or are at least sometimes fun.
I, in fact, do.

Yet you are advocating for the complete abrogation of the ability of antagonists, the main drivers of conflict within a round, to engage in all but the most targeted of station destruction and damage. All of the memorable roleplay situations I described could never have occurred if 'murderbone' paranoia had been enforced as you have consistently proposed.
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Carry on with your regularly scheduled bad faith posting, I'll be over here ignoring it.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is arguing in bad faith."
Quite ironic, considering your behaviour in this thread.

Regardless, I've said my piece. I'll leave it to the headmins' judgement.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:38 pm #579693

Farquaar wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:The one where you ignored the majority of the post, quoted a tiny portion and argued against a point nobody here was trying to make? TFW somebody starts a post talking about "strawmen" then proceeds to passionately present one in the next sentence. Holy smokes.

Yeah, no. I'm hardly responding to a strawman, considering that you have consistently been posting under the operative assumption that mass murder is unfun and poorly conducive to roleplay.
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Try to wrap your mind around this: you can think that murderbone being widespread and unilaterally allowed is bad and would lead to unfun results, and also think that fast paced, chaotic, engaging, and dramatic rounds are fun or are at least sometimes fun.
I, in fact, do.

Yet you are advocating for the complete abrogation of antagonists, the main drivers of conflict within a round, ability to engage in all but the most targeted of station destruction and damage. All of the memorable roleplay situations I described could never have occurred if 'murderbone' paranoia had been enforced as you have consistently proposed.
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Carry on with your regularly scheduled bad faith posting, I'll be over here ignoring it.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is arguing in bad faith."
Quite ironic, considering your behaviour in this thread.

Regardless, I've said my piece. I'll leave the headmins will make their judgement.
When the antag freedom camp insists that anything short of allowing people to wordlessly wipe the server of population is even close to "the complete abrogation of antagonists" and is destroying roleplay as we know it it's a real fucking wonder why I'm so far not convinced of anything, particularly good faith.
I didn't argue mass murder cannot ever be interesting, fun, or drive rounds, I argued that the above being the norm is stupid and does nothing to facilitate RP. And if you allowed murderbone it would become the norm.
Thankfully, we don't have to rely on arbitrary opinion here, because we have a case study that proves me right and you wrong; every TG server besides Manuel.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby Farquaar » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:41 pm #579694

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:When the antag freedom camp insists that anything short of allowing people to wordlessly wipe the server of population is even close to "the complete abrogation of antagonists"

I made a grammatical edit to my post right after I made it clarifying this point, as I realized it was not well-worded.
Farquaar wrote:Yet you are advocating for the complete abrogation of the ability of antagonists, the main drivers of conflict within a round, to engage in all but the most targeted of station destruction and damage. All of the memorable roleplay situations I described could never have occurred if 'murderbone' paranoia had been enforced as you have consistently proposed.

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Re: MRP: Remove murderbone pass from hijack traitors.

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:44 pm #579707

Hijack is already hard enough as is.

Youd have an easier time arguing to remove hijack

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