/tg/Station 13

Slow MRP movespeed down. Do it a little bit, for a weekend or two. Maybe we try a couple of different movespeeds. You just edit one number in the config.

This will engender more RP as people are actually in each other's presence for longer, and have more time to act, react, take things in.

Let's do 75% to start, or even 50%. We intuitively understand logarithmic things like halving a lot more easily than we do any other rate of increase/decrease.

RaveRadbury but later on wrote:Since the original post I've found that yeah 25% to 50% was likely too extreme and finer tweaking is necessary. I think that the information that MSO has provided here is sufficient to satisfy my interest at this time. The headmins have also indicated that they aren't interested in this on policy bus, so this definitely will not be realized any time soon and likely shouldn't in the way that the original post specified.

Having said all that, a lot of great discussion has been coming out of this and I'd prefer to see this thread lock out of eventual disuse as discourse fades rather than a decisive vote and lock from the headmins.

Be warned some items do not scale with movement speed and things that are position-relevant like boss attacks / gunplay / vehicles may be negatively impacted by a non-standard movespeed.

50%? Nooo way.
75%? Could try it.

If your goal is to keep people in each other's presence for longer, the solution isn't movespeed. If somebody wants to interact with someone nearby, they will. If they don't, then they won't.

The real question is one of map size. Imagine a football field with 5 people on it. Now, imagine a living-room with 5 people in it. Assuming more or less equal population distribution, in which situation are people more likely to interact with each other while they go about their business?

SS13 has a lot of objects, machines, and structures that take up a lot of space. Consequently, a lot of empty space has been set aside as access routes to these things (i.e. wide hallways, bare tiles etc). While eliminating this empty space is impossible (access restrictions and traffic concerns preclude the elimination of all hallways), a serious effort to compact rooms and bring them closer together should have the effect you want, without breaking action-oriented gameplay elements.

I agree with Farquaar. Turning down global movespeed isn't the solution to make people more prone to RP. Between large map sizes not helping people encounter one another (while also making them even more of a hassle to traverse) and many jobs being affected by slower speeds (paramedics, officers, miners), it doesn't seem the way to go.

For one, there is no clear defined standard of what /tg/station takes for MRP. Do you call MRP vaguely speaking in-character for your profession and avoiding OOC metaspeak? Do you call MRP writing full-fledged characters while suspending disbelief for the wackier things that happen in SS13? Until it's defined, it's going to be hard to encourage RP.

Secondly, proper RP doesn't take nearly as often due to the server culture. Manuel plays out like a much calmer Bagil, the problem being that it still feels like Bagil. Any moment a traitor can just run up to you, whip out a .357 and empty the cylinder into you. Or someone can walk around the hallways, wetting floor and throwing soap in front of people. It's all things that happen often in SS13, but they aren't usually conductive to RP. It's not a problem of making this rule or tweaking this mechanic, it's a matter of what kind of RP the server is trying to aim for.

All that being said, I do think movespeed needs a tweak. Not a speed tweak. Just a rework in general. I'm all for a stamina system where walking at a reasonable, not annoying speed is the default. You could sprint at fast speeds, maybe even add a jog for an in-between speed that doesn't drain your stamina bar nearly as fast. It would need a fair amount of balancing, considering the dynamic run/walk already has, but I feel that can be ironed out with some thought on it's own thread. A stamina system would help far more in encountering others and sticking around them for longer by discourging just blazing at full speed all around the place if it's going to negatively impact you.

Otherwise, movespeed is fine as is.

Bad idea.

i feel like this would be really uncomfy for people who enjoy playing on both mrp and lrp

assuming those people exist

...The real question is one of map size. Imagine a football field with 5 people on it. Now, imagine a living-room with 5 people in it...
...Any moment a traitor can just run up to you, whip out a .357 and empty the cylinder into you. Or someone can walk around the hallways, wetting floor and throwing soap in front of people....

Big points in reality.

While slower move-speed can work, its hard when the mechanical speed of things is fast. An overall game slowdown is a bit different than a move-speed slowdown. As others said tacking on expansive maps and population being in its 'lower half' to that and it can get pretty brutal.

I can totally understand trying to say something to someone that runs in, grabs something, then leaves before you even finish typing though.

...there is no clear defined standard of what /tg/station takes for MRP...

MRP is so expansive without a solid definition that most likely everyone has a different understanding of it, and where the lines get drawn.

...stamina system...

I get the feeling this might just not be compatible across the board.

this is actually stupid

Movespeed isn't something necessarily quickly tweaked, simply It requires a larger re work for huge portions of the game to be enjoyable for everyone.

It might cause issues but i think that improving the typing speed to movement speed ratio will indeed help foster interactions whenever you want to catch the attention of someone moving. It's probably one of the reasons why security is heavily incentivized to stun someone to search them, for example, since by the time they finish writing "You in the gasmask, stop" the target is out of earshot.

Cobby wrote:Be warned some items do not scale with movement speed and things that are position-relevant like boss attacks / gunplay / vehicles may be negatively impacted by a non-standard movespeed.

skoglol wrote:Bad idea.

It's at this point i should tell you guys that the server run speed is already modified from the repo. its 1.0 on the repo but 1.5 on the server (higher means slower).

Didn't seem to break anything.

Also, for the record, any manuelmins who wants to try this for a round can just varedit the config controller.

mc tab -> config controller -> entries list -> run_delay -> config_entry_value -> (e).

higher means slower, as its the time (in 1/10 of a second) between moves. 2 would be a good starting point.

MrStonedOne wrote: It's at this point i should tell you guys that the server run speed is already modified from the repo. its 1.0 on the repo but 1.5 on the server (higher means slower).
Didn't seem to break anything.

I know you're not saying it here but I wanna be clear, the repo config has been updated to match the servers so we can test to match them better.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/51934

MrStonedOne wrote:

Cobby wrote:Be warned some items do not scale with movement speed and things that are position-relevant like boss attacks / gunplay / vehicles may be negatively impacted by a non-standard movespeed.

skoglol wrote:Bad idea.

It's at this point i should tell you guys that the server run speed is already modified from the repo. its 1.0 on the repo but 1.5 on the server (higher means slower).

Didn't seem to break anything.

What Potato said, and repo side we have already been taking server configed movespeed into consideration for changes for quite a while before that was changed. Being someone who has actually played tg at both speeds, while the drop from 1 to 1.5 was acceptable and works in practice, it changed a lot of gameplay elements. Lets go with an easy example, megafauna. Hierophant attacks are just barely dodgeable at 1.5, turning it down any further makes its attacks devastating and likely means the fight is near impossible. Have you tried colossus at 1.5? A very dodge heavy fight, you'll struggle to dodge at 1.5. I cant imagine it being possible at less speed.

But cobby already said this, so I didnt think I would have to expand on it.


That said, I can also have opinions that are not code based despite my green forum name. I think attacking movespeed to magically create more RP is a bad idea. If anything, it will make moving around the station less desirable.

The other option would be to make something like a config to make run auto-convert to walk if you stop moving for more than like, 15 seconds, and set a faster walk delay, like 2.5 instead of 4.

The RP servers have lower movespeed, and it's no coincidence. It does help with promoting interactions. The change from 1 to 1.5 helped a lot already.
It's understandable that the LRP servers will want to keep it, but for the MRP one 2 would be pretty good.

If megafauna is hard then it can be tweaked as well. None of the issues that may arise with slowing down Manuel is unsolvable.

I think a better solution to the problem of "people run away before I get the chance to talk" would be to finally just add that stupid indicator speech bubble that appears when you're typing

I hate that stupid bubble. I often start typing something, decide its retarded, and decide not to talk. Now Ive got some poor fucker waiting around for what Im gonna say

skoglol wrote:I hate that stupid bubble. I often start typing something, decide its retarded, and decide not to talk. Now Ive got some poor fucker waiting around for what Im gonna say

sounds like a you problem, just be confident

PKPenguin321 wrote:I think a better solution to the problem of "people run away before I get the chance to talk" would be to finally just add that stupid indicator speech bubble that appears when you're typing

I'd like to see this happen.

The BayStation slippery slope

PKPenguin321 wrote:I think a better solution to the problem of "people run away before I get the chance to talk" would be to finally just add that stupid indicator speech bubble that appears when you're typing

the bubble is fucking stupid you can avoid it by using the bottom bar for saying and it activates when you activate chat to do emotes man fuck speech bubble

skoglol wrote:Lets go with an easy example, megafauna.

You're not wrong but I weep every time someone brings up the miners' private playground as a reason not to change something that could benefit the entire server

Maybe you should look at adding more in-game incentives for people to talk to each other instead of assuming slowing players down even more will solve the problem? But that would be more difficult and time-consuming. We have PDAs and the radio to get people's attention if they leave the screen before you can finish typing something.

Fikou wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:I think a better solution to the problem of "people run away before I get the chance to talk" would be to finally just add that stupid indicator speech bubble that appears when you're typing

the bubble is fucking stupid you can avoid it by using the bottom bar for saying and it activates when you activate chat to do emotes man fuck speech bubble

With the new tgui chat we could combine the command bar, say, and ooc into one line and it'd work pretty nicely

Fikou wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:I think a better solution to the problem of "people run away before I get the chance to talk" would be to finally just add that stupid indicator speech bubble that appears when you're typing

the bubble is fucking stupid you can avoid it by using the bottom bar for saying and it activates when you activate chat to do emotes man fuck speech bubble

ok well if you dont want people to run away while youre talking then you should just not do that

isn't this a player problem

tweaking movespeed on manuel to encourage widespread RP seems kind of redundant

arent the people who want to RP already on manuel?

RP is encouraged by default, shouldnt have to adjust the game too much to do that.

the primary thing this would change is SEC interaction with the crew. talking to people and telling them to put their hands up etc is more feasible if they arent gonna just bolt off screen immediately. you still pretty much have to disabler people with warrants first and talk later.

Armhulen wrote:With the new tgui chat we could combine the command bar, say, and ooc into one line and it'd work pretty nicely

this was possible pre-goonchat, with goonchat, and with tgui-chat, and in fact is so possible that it's already true and always has been. perhaps you meant some other related concept instead?

SpaceManiac wrote:

Armhulen wrote:With the new tgui chat we could combine the command bar, say, and ooc into one line and it'd work pretty nicely

this was possible pre-goonchat, with goonchat, and with tgui-chat, and in fact is so possible that it's already true and always has been. perhaps you meant some other related concept instead?

sorry yeah I was talking about this demo style put out:

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... utput.webm

> the primary thing this would change is SEC interaction with the crew. talking to people and telling them to put their hands up etc is more feasible if they arent gonna just bolt off screen immediately. you still pretty much have to disabler people with warrants first and talk later.

bro! there is a reason why sec hailers exist

Armhulen wrote:

SpaceManiac wrote:

Armhulen wrote:With the new tgui chat we could combine the command bar, say, and ooc into one line and it'd work pretty nicely

this was possible pre-goonchat, with goonchat, and with tgui-chat, and in fact is so possible that it's already true and always has been. perhaps you meant some other related concept instead?

sorry yeah I was talking about this demo style put out:

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... utput.webm

Oh sure, just dump even more critical functionality into the unreliable, slow, and rickety-ass chat window that I often have to reconnect three times a round to make it work and only exists to try and scrape performance margins. That'll be great

We really do need stability first agreed

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Armhulen wrote:

SpaceManiac wrote:

Armhulen wrote:With the new tgui chat we could combine the command bar, say, and ooc into one line and it'd work pretty nicely

this was possible pre-goonchat, with goonchat, and with tgui-chat, and in fact is so possible that it's already true and always has been. perhaps you meant some other related concept instead?

sorry yeah I was talking about this demo style put out:

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... utput.webm

Oh sure, just dump even more critical functionality into the unreliable, slow, and rickety-ass chat window that I often have to reconnect three times a round to make it work and only exists to try and scrape performance margins. That'll be great

it works fine if you're not on windows 7 or windows 8 you fucking boomer cunt lmao, the only thing that's unreliable and slow here is your ability to push the update button in between bouts of slamming donuts into that gaping maw you call a mouth.

oranges wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Armhulen wrote:

SpaceManiac wrote:

Armhulen wrote:With the new tgui chat we could combine the command bar, say, and ooc into one line and it'd work pretty nicely

this was possible pre-goonchat, with goonchat, and with tgui-chat, and in fact is so possible that it's already true and always has been. perhaps you meant some other related concept instead?

sorry yeah I was talking about this demo style put out:

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... utput.webm

Oh sure, just dump even more critical functionality into the unreliable, slow, and rickety-ass chat window that I often have to reconnect three times a round to make it work and only exists to try and scrape performance margins. That'll be great

it works fine if you're not on windows 7 or windows 8 you fucking boomer cunt lmao, the only thing that's unreliable and slow here is your ability to push the update button in between bouts of slamming donuts into that gaping maw you call a mouth.

Imagine the look on his fat fuckin hobbit face when he realises that I'm on Win 10 and have been since ages ago. Maybe he'll sod off back to middle earth where he can complain about elves and give the riders of rohan a design document for a horse revamp before yet another earthquake/volcano knocks his tin hut over

We keep telling him to destroy the ring but he just won't for some reason

together we can turn lowrp into slowrp

Just as a FYI we had this same exact argument years ago that we needed to slow movement speed down for the same exact reason (which is how I know things get impacted by movement speed changes).

The game was even faster than it is now and it probably needed to go down for gameplay reasons anyways, but I don't think anyone EVER praised the slowdown for the RP gained aspect. In fact, the game continued to go into less and less RP even with the slowdown, so much that there was enough people in the community that we could make a server dedicated to returning to more medium RP standards and it stay populated.

I would be more for this idea if there was some quantifiable way that it did what it was meant to do like make it take X amount of time to get from arrivals shuttle to default escape shuttle on meta, but I don't know how to track "people RP more" and correlate that to a movement speed change in the same way that I can see medical changes and the length it takes for a patient to get out of medbay for instance.

Asking for a 25% or 50% slowdown is huge and I would highly recommend running those kinds of values over multiple rounds (and play in those rounds yourself) before you come to the conclusion that such a steep slowdown is necessary to facilitate more RP.

Secondary issue is on the code end which i mentioned before, do be warned there will probably be a cringe transition period where people will need to PR config-based scaling to previously set hardvalues.

Cobby wrote:Just as a FYI we had this same exact argument years ago that we needed to slow movement speed down for the same exact reason (which is how I know things get impacted by movement speed changes).

The game was even faster than it is now and it probably needed to go down for gameplay reasons anyways, but I don't think anyone EVER praised the slowdown for the RP gained aspect. In fact, the game continued to go into less and less RP even with the slowdown, so much that there was enough people in the community that we could make a server dedicated to returning to more medium RP standards and it stay populated.

I would be more for this idea if there was some quantifiable way that it did what it was meant to do like make it take X amount of time to get from arrivals shuttle to default escape shuttle on meta, but I don't know how to track "people RP more" and correlate that to a movement speed change in the same way that I can see medical changes and the length it takes for a patient to get out of medbay for instance.

Asking for a 25% or 50% slowdown is huge and I would highly recommend running those kinds of values over multiple rounds (and play in those rounds yourself) before you come to the conclusion that such a steep slowdown is necessary to facilitate more RP.

Secondary issue is on the code end which i mentioned before, do be warned there will probably be a cringe transition period where people will need to PR config-based scaling to previously set hardvalues.

Since the original post I've found that yeah 25% to 50% was likely too extreme and finer tweaking is necessary. I think that the information that MSO has provided here is sufficient to satisfy my interest at this time. The headmins have also indicated that they aren't interested in this on policy bus, so this definitely will not be realized any time soon and likely shouldn't in the way that the original post specified.

Having said all that, a lot of great discussion has been coming out of this and I'd prefer to see this thread lock out of eventual disuse as discourse fades rather than a decisive vote and lock from the headmins.

As for config-based scaling to previously set hardvalues, isn't that something that needs to be done if we are going to claim that we do support speed configs? I hope that we can address this oversight, and if anyone had examples of such hardvalues I'd be very interested in hearing about them.

Thanks for all the thinking and concern you've put towards this issue Cobby, I really appreciate it.

> isn't that something that needs to be done if we are going to claim that we do support speed configs? I hope that we can address this oversight, and if anyone had examples of such hardvalues I'd be very interested in hearing about them.

The game isnt broken as MSO stated so we can still claim such, but definitely room for improvement :^)

This seems like a non-issue where we're making two unsubstantiated claims: that there's a lack of roleplay and that movement speed is the cause.

As Rave wishes I will step in and lock the thread for now.