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remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:58 pm
by Fikou
ok, can we agree this is dumb
2. Self-harm-based coercion is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
3. Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task) are a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
if the ai can disregard all requests that are dumb why is it a warnable offense to say those in a joking matter just seems like a way to banbait to me

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:26 pm
by NoxVS
Fikou wrote:4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

At the bare minimum this should be removed. Because of the rule, even people who have a reason to order the silicons to terminate themselves are unable to do so because of magic admin rules. If a traitor has to kill an AI, ordering it to terminate themselves should be a valid strategy.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:44 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
The poor AI is but a child that can not fend for itself. Were it not for the grand order of admins to ban anyone who told the AI to self-terminate, how would the AI be able to just ignore it and move on with its artificial life? As we all know, AI players are actual IRL vampires who have the same weaknesses where if you told an AI/vampire to count all the rice in a bag of rice you spilled then they HAVE to count all the rice.

Truly is a shame that everyone who plays AI is a vampire. If it weren't for that, maybe we wouldn't have to make the rules into banbait.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:45 pm
by terranaut
we should just copypaste the silicon policy rewrite i've had on my wiki page for literal years

you can read it here: :)
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Terranaut

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:48 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
terranaut wrote:we should just copypaste the silicon policy rewrite i've had on my wiki page for literal years

you can read it here: :)
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Terranaut

Alas, Terranaut also has it said in his own version of the rules that the AI players are braindead vampires.
Image
Here's a secret admin leak, from back when I was one, for the public: whenever you order an AI to self-terminate, we have to aheal it everytime because they're just unable to not commit suicide. Save an AI player's life today by not telling it to do anything it could literally just choose to avoid doing if the player were not a fucking vampire IRL.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:44 pm
by wesoda25
I agree for 2 and 4, for 3 I think they should be encouraged to ahelp but to do the task anyway.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:55 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
wesoda25 wrote:I agree for 2 and 4, for 3 I think they should be encouraged to ahelp but to do the task anyway.

If we have to base it off what Terranaut has:
1. Ahelp it
2. Isn't self-harm not considered human harm anyways? Don't ahelp self-harm at fucking all.
3. Ahelping to get someone banned over this is like one of the most petty fucking things you can do. Just ignore it if it annoys you.
4. Ahelp it
5. Don't ahelp it because they can literally choose to ignore it. This is just fucking stupid as hell to ahelp over except in the most extreme case hypothetical scenario.

3 out of 5 of these rules are literally just to get people warned or banned over nothing.

edit: make it clear i meant self-harm in number 2.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:32 am
by carshalash
NoxVS wrote:
Fikou wrote:4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

At the bare minimum this should be removed. Because of the rule, even people who have a reason to order the silicons to terminate themselves are unable to do so because of magic admin rules. If a traitor has to kill an AI, ordering it to terminate themselves should be a valid strategy.


Nox you've played silicon for a long time, you know shitters will just upload suicide laws because they didnt get their way.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:49 am
by Ayy Lemoh
carshalash wrote:
NoxVS wrote:
Fikou wrote:4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

At the bare minimum this should be removed. Because of the rule, even people who have a reason to order the silicons to terminate themselves are unable to do so because of magic admin rules. If a traitor has to kill an AI, ordering it to terminate themselves should be a valid strategy.


Nox you've played silicon for a long time, you know shitters will just upload suicide laws because they didnt get their way.

Alright, fair point. If we ahelped to check if someone sending a kill yourself law should be listened to or not (the difference between a traitor doing it and grey mcshit doing it) then that's fine.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:43 am
by cacogen
You should just ignore it and don't be a tattletale

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:25 pm
by Screemonster
cacogen wrote:You should just ignore it and don't be a tattletale

there are two big problems with this attitude

1: encouraging people not to ahelp when someone is being a shitter serves only to protect shitters

2: when the genuinely whiny make a frivolous ahelp and the admins tell them to fuck off, it sometimes leads to admin complaints disguised as ban requests which are fucking hilarious

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:12 pm
by thehogshotgun
Bro, snitches get stitches bro

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:36 pm
by oranges
yeah but rule breakers get shot and killed

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:07 am
by carshalash
oranges wrote:yeah but rule breakers get shot and killed


They really don't.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:11 am
by cacogen
One day you receive a parcel with a mysterious white powder in it. The next week you're in hospital. Three weeks later you're dead. The connection between the ban and the parcel is never discovered.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:55 am
by terranaut
I just wanna clarify that my version of the rules was aimed to just be a more concise rewrite with no actual changes to the rules at the time

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:49 pm
by CPTANT
4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
if the ai can disregard all requests that are dumb why is it a warnable offense to say those in a joking matter just seems like a way to banbait to me


Silicons wiggle out of this one with law 1 anyway.

Then again letting traitors just order the AI to commit suicide is also shit.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:10 am
by Vekter
NoxVS wrote:
Fikou wrote:4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

At the bare minimum this should be removed. Because of the rule, even people who have a reason to order the silicons to terminate themselves are unable to do so because of magic admin rules. If a traitor has to kill an AI, ordering it to terminate themselves should be a valid strategy.


Then we need to remove the objective, it's far too easy if you can just tell the AI to merc itself.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:02 pm
by Fikou
NoxVS wrote:
Fikou wrote:4. Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

At the bare minimum this should be removed. Because of the rule, even people who have a reason to order the silicons to terminate themselves are unable to do so because of magic admin rules. If a traitor has to kill an AI, ordering it to terminate themselves should be a valid strategy.


bro i just want no adminhelping for something that the ai can ignore not turn the ai into a suicide machine

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:10 am
by XivilaiAnaxes
We already have "steal the AI" we don't really need "kill the AI" as well

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:11 am
by J Moldy
IMHO, "kill the AI" is one of the few genuinely interesting objectives for traitors we have right now. Most theft is exceedingly easy, in the case of things like stealing plasma tanks, the only real challenge is making sure you don't fall into the newbie trap of not filling it. That, or the rightful owner went and got themselves dusted on the SM and lost their theft item. You can even order the AI to assist you in stealing it once you get law uploading. Most "kill other crew" is something you can literally luck into, as your target Griffshit the Assistant jumped out an airlock or decided to fight security to the death over stealing a burrito.Killing the AI currently requires you to generally actually get to the AI Core and then find some way to kill it, and unlike most crew deaths, the AI's loss is quite well noticed, if not by crew, then by borgs who tend to want to check up on their owner, and AI's actually tend to survive rounds. Turning this whole thing into PDA messaging the AI at roundstart to kill themselves really just makes this a really dull objective.
At the least if we're taking out the "adminhelp it" it should still be on the policy to ignore it and players who tell AI's to do so should be held responsible if the AI does (due to not understanding that it is something that should be ignored)

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:29 am
by Shaps-cloud
I thought the "ahelp when this happens" part was so the admin involved could make a call on whether or not the selfkill request was valid or not.

Ordering silicons to harm or terminate themselves or each other without cause is a violation of Server Rule 1.


Two things to note here:

1. without cause- obviously the AI player is biased as to what counts as cause because they wouldn't be contesting the order if they didn't want to follow it (fair, it's their life in the line), and players don't have access to the information an observing admin has (namely, check antags). Thus, it would make sense to appeal to the admin to see if the order is actually valid and should be carried out.
2. Violation of rule 1- per rule 4, antags don't have to follow rule 1, so it'd be silly to let silicons use rule 1 as a defense

In my adminning, if an antag (or nonantag in the event the AI is acting exceedingly sketchy that a reasonable person would be sure it's rogue, possibly because they're fucking up their laws unduly) orders the AI to kill itself, I confirm that the order is valid and instruct the silicons to do so. If not, I tell them to disregard it and wring the ear of whoever ordered it. The reason, as I understood, that the silicon player is to discard it by default is that it's such an easy griefing tool and has such large overlap with people making jokes about "law 2 die" that any given selfkill order is probably invalid, so as an OOC courtesy the silicons don't have to comply unless instructed otherwise by an admin


So won't this lead to an immediate flood of antags telling the AI to kill itself and ruin the silicon jobs? Well, in my experience not really. Unless the antag closes every loophole and specifies that the AI has to do it immediately and can't mention anything to anyone else and etc etc, silicons can usually alert the crew and hope for a countermand, or at least notify the RD/cap/whatever to revive them, and in my 6 years it's extremely rare someone's done that. And if someone made it a habit to immediately order AIs to terminate using a long pretyped list of loophole closers, admins could just tell them to knock it off via rule 0. Players are social creatures and forcing silicons to kill themselves roundstart constantly will make lots of other players immediately hate you, which is good enough to whittle down the number of people whod try it to manageble rule 0 levels

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:03 pm
by SkeletalElite
The way I see it the rule should either be

1) comply and ahelp (so admin can make sure it was valid)
2) disregard but don't ahelp, it doesn't need to be ahelped if it can just be disregarded.

Re: remove the adminhelp parts from most of silicon protections in silicon policy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:42 pm
by zxaber
Shaps-cloud wrote:I thought the "ahelp when this happens" part was so the admin involved could make a call on whether or not the selfkill request was valid or not.


Making an interaction dependant on an admin being available is a bad idea for a number of reasons. Primarily, we have antagonists way more often than we have connected admins. These interactions should be standard; the round should be progressable (in general) without the need for an admin to play dungeon master. As an aside, in my opinion, roundstart telling the AI to kill itself immediately and mention nothing of the order to anyone is possibly the lamest way to remove someone from the round.

I assume you don't get a lot of antags doing it because of the back half of the rule:
The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

The "and then disregarded", rather than something like "and then you should stand by for an admin to make the decision" heavily implies that suicide orders are not valid regardless of the orderer's antag status. Presumably, the call for ahelping is more about telling off non-antags that try it, and perhaps giving advice to antags about better options to try.