Macros = cheating?

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderators: In-Game Head Admins, In-Game Game Master

Forum rules
Read these board rules before posting or you'll get reprimanded.
Threads without replies for 30 days will be automatically locked.
User avatar
Vekter
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: Fucking around with the engine.
Byond Username: Vekter

Macros = cheating?

Postby Vekter » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:17 pm #578775

Fine, whatever, if Foxicide wants us to discuss it we'll discuss it.

The current understanding is that using a macro is considered to be cheating either by intentionally bypassing the action limit or by automating clicks to make annoying tasks easier. This isn't actually written down anywhere and it really should be.
Image
Image
Image


Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you



User avatar
Sylphet
 
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:35 am
Location: Deepest Medbay
Byond Username: Sylphet

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Sylphet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:26 pm #578776

Using unfair methods to get an advantage over people is the dictionary definition of cheating.
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27175

User avatar
terranaut
TGMC Lead
 
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
Byond Username: Terranaut

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby terranaut » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:34 pm #578778

what about the integrated byond macros
everyone has access to those, its not unfair by any stretch of imagination
Image

Tell me I'm a good monki: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=24558

User avatar
Cobby
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Cobby » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:46 pm #578779

If you are making a macro and you can replicate delays so it appears like you are no different than another player but you are clicking less keys I could care less tbh.

If it is obvious you are using a macro to optimize your actions so much that someone is able to point it out then knock it off. Allowing those kind of macros would shift the meta and game in an unhealthy direction imo.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

User avatar
Boris
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:21 pm
Location: Soon to be Atlantis
Byond Username: Borisvanmemes

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Boris » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:14 pm #578781

terranaut wrote:what about the integrated byond macros
everyone has access to those, its not unfair by any stretch of imagination

I'm like 85% sure those aren't available on /tg/.
The nerd that plays Tam and Amanda Lin

Call me a bad admin here.

User avatar
wesoda25
 
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:40 pm #578782

I think its pretty obvious that this is cheating, if someone has something remotely close to significant playtime and claims it isn’t, they’re probably just being disingenuous. And wouldn’t this fall under the no powergaming rule?
Naloac wrote:Since you have asked for a *community opinion* and im the player voted admin. Ill give you my official opinion straight from the *community* Your fucking retarded

User avatar
Armhulen
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: it's a long story

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Armhulen » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:13 pm #578785

Boris wrote:
terranaut wrote:what about the integrated byond macros
everyone has access to those, its not unfair by any stretch of imagination

I'm like 85% sure those aren't available on /tg/.

And I'm 100%. They are disabled.

For anyone thinking macros are harmless remember it was used to super murderize people with throwable stacks. How is that reasonable or fair for the victim?
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

User avatar
MortoSasye
 
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:05 pm
Byond Username: MortoSasye

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby MortoSasye » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:26 pm #578787

Rule 0

Admins are fully accountable for any consequences should they invoke this rule. Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the playerbase.


Rule 4

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.


Macros have always been treated as cheating, and it is an unfair advantage. It doesn't need to be explicit it is against the rules, because just reading our own rules you can get an idea we wouldn't be ok with it.

There is also precedent it has been treated as such before: so no idea why we're discussing this, unless it is for the purpose of adding it to the rules.
Bella Rouge; no, it's not Rogue
DICK PILLS HERE
Image
NSFW:
Image

PepperPrepper
 
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:06 pm
Byond Username: Iwanttocookyouanicemeal
Github Username: PepperPrepper

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby PepperPrepper » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:17 pm #578804

Just out of curiosity would this include auto clickers?
While I've basically stopped using them I've been temped to use one again purely because of how ass high ping melee combat is

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:05 am #578815

MortoSasye wrote:Rule 0

Admins are fully accountable for any consequences should they invoke this rule. Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the playerbase.


Rule 4

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.


Macros have always been treated as cheating, and it is an unfair advantage. It doesn't need to be explicit it is against the rules, because just reading our own rules you can get an idea we wouldn't be ok with it.

There is also precedent it has been treated as such before: so no idea why we're discussing this, unless it is for the purpose of adding it to the rules.

Stop invoking rule 0 in policy discussion. It is and always will be redundant because it's literally just a rule saying "WELL I SAID SO AND THAT'S FINAL" which defeats the entire purpose of something like a policy discussion. Imagine if, when we tried to ban rape, somebody said "wellll creepy ERP can already technically be banned by rule 0 so really we don't need rule 8." You'd call that person an idiot.

Sylphet wrote:Using unfair methods to get an advantage over people is the dictionary definition of cheating.

Macros are not a bug or an exploit. The game is programmed to take inputs, and other programs that can facilitate macros to provide said inputs are common and freely available to anyone that wants to use them. If they were deliberately obscured, or if BYOND had some deliberate mechanism to block macros that was being actively defeated maliciously, then you could call it unfair.

Taking the angle of "there are already rules for this because rule 0/it is a bug" is simply wrong. That being said, it sucks if macros are used to the advantage of an individual because people don't always want to have to play with them on. I certainly don't want to have to juggle macros for a casual round or two. At the same time, unless the macro user is being very very obvious about it, this is impossible to police because there is no mechanism for blocking or detecting macros. Do macros kinda suck? Generally, yes, but making a rule against them would be grandstanding at best because a rule that can't be enforced has no authority.

Cobby wrote:If you are making a macro and you can replicate delays so it appears like you are no different than another player but you are clicking less keys I could care less tbh.

If it is obvious you are using a macro to optimize your actions so much that someone is able to point it out then knock it off. Allowing those kind of macros would shift the meta and game in an unhealthy direction imo.

This is the reasonable take.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
Mickyan
Github User
 
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm
Byond Username: Mickyan
Github Username: Mickyan

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Mickyan » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:15 am #578818

PKPenguin321 wrote:Macros are not a bug or an exploit. The game is programmed to take inputs, and other programs that can facilitate macros to provide said inputs are common and freely available to anyone that wants to use them. If they were deliberately obscured, or if BYOND had some deliberate mechanism to block macros that was being actively defeated maliciously, then you could call it unfair.

You can more or less apply this very same reasoning to botting and other specific cheating programs

The mistake that's being made here is to try and find a vague line that cannot be crossed in terms of input automation and it's not going to work because everyone's going to have their own opinion on what that line is

Using external programs to gain any kind of advantage is cheating by definition and being very difficult to detect hasn't stopped us from making metagaming against the rules, so why should this
ImageI play on Manuel as Swanni, the brain-damaged moth.
Be nice to each other.

PepperPrepper
 
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:06 pm
Byond Username: Iwanttocookyouanicemeal
Github Username: PepperPrepper

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:55 am #578823

Mickyan wrote:Using external programs to gain any kind of advantage is cheating by definition and being very difficult to detect hasn't stopped us from making metagaming against the rules, so why should this


I feel that the key word here is advantage. While I myself am somewhat biased as I in the past I've used an external program. There are many theoretical macro/hotkey scripts that would cause no in game advantage and thus would not fall under the "cheating" category.

User avatar
NoxVS
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Maintenance
Byond Username: NoxVS

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby NoxVS » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:52 am #578825

PKPenguin321 wrote:Macros are not a bug or an exploit. The game is programmed to take inputs, and other programs that can facilitate macros to provide said inputs are common and freely available to anyone that wants to use them. If they were deliberately obscured, or if BYOND had some deliberate mechanism to block macros that was being actively defeated maliciously, then you could call it unfair.

So would something like an aimbot be perfectly fine to use then? Automatically tracks someone and attacks them whenever in melee range. I have seen them used before, and it is just providing inputs so it should be fine right?

cacogen
 
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby cacogen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:57 am #578827

If your ping is bad you should be able to use autohotkey scripts to attack as fast as the game allows because otherwise almost no clicks register thanks to the built-in click delay combined with your god-awful latency. I don't actually mean this sincerely but I'll admit I'LL ADMIT I have done this in the past and it makes a marked difference to melee combat at least, where otherwise you'd be fucked in all forms of combat unless you happen to go up against someone with a similarly bad ping or who has a physical disability that inhibits their ability to use the keyboard and mouse.
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this

User avatar
Armhulen
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: it's a long story

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Armhulen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:16 am #578830

Cobby wrote:If you are making a macro and you can replicate delays so it appears like you are no different than another player but you are clicking less keys I could care less tbh.

If it is obvious you are using a macro to optimize your actions so much that someone is able to point it out then knock it off. Allowing those kind of macros would shift the meta and game in an unhealthy direction imo.

ya
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:17 am #578831

NoxVS wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Macros are not a bug or an exploit. The game is programmed to take inputs, and other programs that can facilitate macros to provide said inputs are common and freely available to anyone that wants to use them. If they were deliberately obscured, or if BYOND had some deliberate mechanism to block macros that was being actively defeated maliciously, then you could call it unfair.

So would something like an aimbot be perfectly fine to use then? Automatically tracks someone and attacks them whenever in melee range. I have seen them used before, and it is just providing inputs so it should be fine right?

Those worked by directly passing arguments (something BYOND doesn't expect an average user to do) that you absolutely weren't able to use without an obscure and deliberately hard to obtain tool. It's not a valid comparison. Also, I'll go on to say that even if macros were objectively a bug (they are not), it would still not matter because of the point in my post.
Do macros kinda suck? Generally, yes, but making a rule against them would be grandstanding at best because a rule that can't be enforced has no authority.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
NoxVS
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Maintenance
Byond Username: NoxVS

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby NoxVS » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:29 am #578834

PKPenguin321 wrote:Do macros kinda suck? Generally, yes, but making a rule against them would be grandstanding at best because a rule that can't be enforced has no authority.

I think it is pretty easy to enforce a rule where if you are using some form of macro or something to get an obvious in game advantage, ie, turning a deck of cards into a machine gun, then you get yelled at by an admin
these things usually aren't that subtle

User avatar
Armhulen
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: it's a long story

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Armhulen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:30 am #578835

If the admin doesnt notice it's probably harmless
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

User avatar
Timberpoes
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:54 pm
Byond Username: Timberpoes

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Timberpoes » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:07 am #578854

In general, if you have a setup - Either hardware of software - Where you doing a single input sends multiple inputs to the game, you're probably cheating. Autoclickers are cheating. Using gaming keyboards, AHK, etc. etc. to play back sequences of button presses automatically is cheating. If you're automating the playing of the game to some extent, chances are that you are cheating.

How easy those things are to catch? *shrugs* - But they're still ostensibly cheating.

We can go round and round about which cheats are acceptable and which cheats are not. Is a keyboard macro that types "t;help maint being killed" in the blink of an eye cheating? Well... Yes. But is it ACCEPTABLE cheating. Is it the kind of cheating that doesn't have some sort of negative stigma attached to it? *shrugs*

I'd personally advocate a zero tolerance policy. If a player is caught doing something that is cheating then what they're doing is probably blatant enough to constitute a permanent ban, since detecting it in general is such a pain in the ass. This is not a single player game, it is a competitive multiplayer game. Player skill should be the deciding factor in what happens in-game instead of what macros they have set up, who has the best autoclicker, so on.

Although of course a player with better hardware, a higher quality mouse with better tracking, a keyboard with a better layout, with better keyswitches, etc. etc. could still have an advantage. That's by-the-by. They're still playing the game instead of automating it. Whatever, I'm hungover and rambling.

tl;dr - Macros, autoclickers and everything else is cheating. Stop trying to justify their use in edge cases, because it's still cheating.
/tg/station Codebase Maintainer: I braek. I feex. I nerf. I beef.
/tg/station Trial Admin/Codermin: I baan. I noot. I halp. Feed me back in my thread.

User avatar
SkeletalElite
 
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 pm
Byond Username: SkeletalElite
Github Username: SkeletalElite

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby SkeletalElite » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:12 pm #578877

I feel like any macro that isn't incredibly obvious is probably okay, but banning anything more than incredibly obvious use of a macro is a flimsy reason to ban someone at best,
ie. autoclicker.
Last edited by SkeletalElite on Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cacogen
 
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby cacogen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:15 pm #578892

You can't know that me shoving you ten times a second isn't pure skill combined with living out of my car in front of the server's collocation centre on COVID-19 cellular wireless
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this

User avatar
Nabski
 
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:42 pm
Location: TN
Byond Username: Nabski
Github Username: Nabski89

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Nabski » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:00 am #578915

I've used an autoclicker to combine a bunch of rods and glass into reinforced glass.

I've also used a screenshot tool to take a picture so I could remember things better.

Both of these were using external tools to help me and MAYBE gain some minor advantage (saving slight time or mental effort), but I don't feel like I was cheating with them.

mstachife
 
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:00 am
Byond Username: Mstachife

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby mstachife » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:39 am #578926

Nabski wrote:I've used an autoclicker to combine a bunch of rods and glass into reinforced glass.

I've also used a screenshot tool to take a picture so I could remember things better.

Both of these were using external tools to help me and MAYBE gain some minor advantage (saving slight time or mental effort), but I don't feel like I was cheating with them.


First one is minor and didn't much affect anyone else, sides theres already a thing in game for clicking too fast.

Second one is akin to using the wiki in game, which is fine.

This has gotta be looked at in context, also using macros in games tends to become the meta whenever they're allowed which is something I definitely dont want to happen here.
Last edited by mstachife on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Jaredfogle
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Jaredfogle » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:03 am #578932

i used auto clickers to repeatedly kill myself in the orion trail and when i get the notification that i'm clicking too much i roleplay that i have carpel tunnel
Mothblocks on Bagil

User avatar
Coconutwarrior97
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:14 am
Byond Username: Coconutwarrior97

Re: Macros = cheating?

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:00 am #579563

Using a macro to give yourself an IC advantage over players is something which is not acceptable.
Though not all macros are necessarily disallowed, such as one letting you kill yourself super quickly while playing Oregon trail, that's just kinda funny and effectively harmless.

Its going to be context sensitive as to which ones are allowed vs not allowed, but as long as it doesn't give you an IC advantage you're likely fine.

Headmin votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes, this is mostly a common sense thing, as long as your macro doesn't give you a leg up over others I don't really care.
Domitius: Yes.
Noaloac: Yes.


Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users