[MRP] Security Ten-Codes

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legality
 
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[MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby legality » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:04 am #580351

This post is in regards to the banning of the use of ten-codes on /tg/station servers. The most recent version of the ten-codes can be found here: https://pastebin.com/AcRHghFP

So I’ve been playing /tg/station on and off since the beginning, ten years ago. I most recently came back a few months ago with some inspiration to create a sec character, Diamond Dolce, after spending a long time watching RP streamers play GTA RP. On the server most of them play on, NoPixel, they all use voice-chat and cop players have a system of ten-codes they use on in-game radio to speed up communications. I thought the entire gimmick was really cool and added a lot of immersion to the RP, so I talked with some of the other sec mains to find out what they thought, got positive feedback, and then took NoPixel’s system of police codes, cut out ~70% of them, and tweaked the remainder to be more relevant to SS13. That was version 1. It was confusing, bloated, and hard to learn, but a lot of us had fun using it with each other. I would paste the list to a piece of paper every round that I played sec, and then use the copier in security to make several copies to hand out. If there was a player I hadn’t seen before on the sec team, I would specifically speak to them and hand them a copy of the codes, explaining what they were and being very clear that it was a voluntary gimmick that they didn’t have to participate in if they didn’t want to.

More recently, after working with some players that were critical of the system to address concerns, I released version 2, which slimmed it down further to just 20 codes and reorganized the codes to be more intuitive and easier to pick up. Instead of the codes being listed randomly, you could, in just a few seconds, learn that if you heard a radio code that was in the 10-10s, that meant an officer was in an emergency situation, if you heard one in the 10-20s, that meant they were talking about moving/meeting/arriving to different locations, and if you heard one in the 10-30s that meant they’d identified a hostile target.

Before version 2 could be truly rolled out, the headmins posted a ruling in Discord stating that the use of ten-codes was banned. The point of this thread is to inquire about the exact reasonings for this ruling, engage the community and the headmins in a discussion about it, to justify the existence and usage of this system as an emergent RP system, and the chilling effect this ruling might have on similar efforts to bring life and complexity to Manuel.

The stated, official reasoning for the ruling is here:
The use of short-hand codes for communication in any department, specifically 10-10 codes, are not allowed. Our servers are English only which makes this style of codified speak subversive and makes the applicable channels too unfriendly to new or fair-weather players.


My response would be:
It’s not easy to learn a new language. It can take years of effort. Conversely, with the new system of ten-codes, it should take a matter of seconds to understand the broad strokes and easily interpret most of the codes with situational context and surrounding language. With the old system, this was still possible, but with less ease: during the initial Discord conversation discussing the ruling, sec and command regulars Samuel Price and Rhials Duffy both attested to the fact that, though they didn’t use the ten-codes, they were almost always able to figure out what was meant by people who were using them; Melbert, who plays Smells-the-Roses, recently posted a YouTube video of a round where they play a traitor with a syndicate comms chip, listening into sec comms on a round where the ten-codes were used heavily. They told me after the fact that “in general, yes, they weren’t that difficult to decipher.”

Other admins listed various other criticisms as part of the ruling during the initial discussion on discord. I will also address these. These are mishmashed quotes strung together from multiple messages by multiple admins:

It's not RP when it's happening OOCly and shared only in this discord. It is a system of communication existing entirely outside of the game. These codes aren't publicly available, so the only way to know it is to have one of the players in on it let you know about it.


Okay, there seems to be some major misunderstanding going on here. This system was made after discussions that my character had with other officers IC. It was introduced IC. When updates to it were made, I would play HoS, call a meeting, and announce it IC. Feedback on the codes was sought IC and the first ever update I made to them was after I received IC feedback. 95% of players first introduction to this system was by someone talking to them about it and offering them a copy of it IC.

As to the codes not being publicly available: I made them as public as possible. If anyone outside of sec ever asked for a copy, it was given to them. Links to a pastebin copy were pinned in the #security-class channel on the Manuel discord, with the latest version having had 70 total views and the version before that having 92. After supportive staff members recommended I do so, I contacted the headmins on multiple occasions about posting the codes as a resource available on the wiki. I never received a response. Once the system was more refined, I planned to make a forum post about it. Every effort was made to make them publicly available.

We don't want cliques to form or for new players to have a new hurdle to overcome just to participate in one of the most important parts of the game, communication.


Personally, I would love for there to be more of a visible barrier of entry to playing sec. Sec is one of the most important roles in the game, as they act as the primary foil for antagonists and, beyond combat situations, are largely an RP-focused role. A good sec player will do everything in their power to extend RP with prisoners and minimize any saltiness on their part -- being caught is supposed to be another part of the game, and it should still be fun for people who are willing to play along. If the people you arrest aren't having fun, there's either something wrong with their approach to the game or there's something wrong with how you're engaging with them. There's a lot of nuance, even if it doesn't look like it from the outside. And the fact that it does look easy and approachable from the outside means that a lot of newer players sign up to security and think they can learn it on their own, without asking more veteran players for help or taking any cues from them, and will even get offended and defensive if you suggest they do. Rounds when the majority of sec consist of players like this are usually when the cries of shitcurity are the loudest. We shouldn't be afraid to make security more complex than it currently is on an RP server. This is the very reason that a lot of RP servers have Security Cadet job slots.

I don't think there was any worry for cliques forming. I was the person who started the system, and the person I most commonly partnered with on the force was someone who didn't use the ten-codes. There was some hate centered on me specifically from certain security players, but not on people in general just for using the ten-codes, and not in the opposite direction towards people who didn't use them.

Lastly, I wanted to say that this ruling might have an unintended chilling effect on future efforts towards emergent RP gimmicks by players. I was initially messaged by an admin about a week after I'd started using the first draft of the ten-codes, saying that adminbus had discussed the topic and decided it was really cool, and I should go with it full steam ahead. I had no further contact about it until I saw an announcement that they were banned for good -- not even a PM or a heads up or anything. This is a pretty bad precedent, in my opinion. In the future, if a bunch of players came together to do something like establish a common lore setting to write our character backstories by, and attempt to have some storywriters make ongoing out-of-station storylines by news releases to go with it and give people things to make small talk about, publishing issues IC as library books and passing them around to create discussion, there's now a fear of admins coming by and telling us that the whole thing is banned because it's "cliquish" and "unfriendly to new players," at any time, even if we had prior admin approval for it. There's also a secondary issue in that this discussion and decision about an emergent RP feature was made completely without including the people participating in and developing that feature, which I don't think should happen. Discussions and rulings like this shouldn't be made completely behind the scenes, or at least should include the people who would be effected by it the most.

When you start an RP server, you're not just starting a multiplayer game, you're starting a community that's going to pick up quirks and culture. It's expected that there will be a barrier for entry to participate in that.



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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby gentornado » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:06 am #580353

Codes bad
Codes barrier to newer players in already semi-difficult job
thank

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby oranges » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:40 am #580354

when you watch some gtarp and think cop rp is anything but cringe

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:45 am #580355

Very nuanced subject but I just wanna say, this doesn’t seem very cliquish, as clearly it is open invite and isn’t personal. As legality said I think its an interesting development in server culture, and provides a sort of snowflake barrier to security that could improve the quality of officers you see.

At the same time though, would we really want to see this sort of thing in every aspect of the game? RIP whoever has to make the decision here.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:32 am #580358

They don't use the ten-codes on the RP servers in GTA because they want to, they use it because it's required because GTA RP servers are a complete clusterfuck of rules made for the sake of existing and "realism". GTA RP servers are not good examples of RP, at all. Like, at all at all. Anything actually interesting or creative is stomped on and smashed to bits. You can't have anything that doesn't fit within what some random ass 50 year old boomer's terrible opinion on what is/is not realistic.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Timberpoes » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:18 am #580360

Not optional for sec - If enough people in your department use them, now you either have to use them yourself or get someone to translate constantly. Increases barrier to entry for sec in arbitrary way.

Not optional for non-sec - Anyone non-sec with access to sec comms from the AI to the Cap to Antags now have to play-by-wiki. Admins also have to learn them as well to follow along with sec comms.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Misdoubtful » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:07 am #580363

Timberpoes wrote:Not optional for sec - If enough people in your department use them, now you either have to use them yourself or get someone to translate constantly. Increases barrier to entry for sec in arbitrary way.

Not optional for non-sec - Anyone non-sec with access to sec comms from the AI to the Cap to Antags now have to play-by-wiki. Admins also have to learn them as well to follow along with sec comms.


In short, this.

I love the idea of things naturally progressing and developing but I'm also stoutly against things that increase that barrier to entry. Especially for one server in the grand scheme of the entire community of servers.

It feels weird to consider that in order to jump from one TG server to Manuel, you'd need to read a bunch of extra information outside of the rulings and become in the know in order to play on it. In this case, for playing security, or to even just listen to their radio channel.

If this kind of thing didn't obfuscate both reading and talking shop while sec I'm sure I'd be looking at it in a different light. But I'm trying to consider this from the viewpoint of a TG sec' player freshly coming to Manuel sec' during this (when almost everything was codified) and just how lost they would be or how uphill this would be for them.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby legality » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:20 am #580365

Timberpoes wrote:Not optional for sec - If enough people in your department use them, now you either have to use them yourself or get someone to translate constantly. Increases barrier to entry for sec in arbitrary way.

Not optional for non-sec - Anyone non-sec with access to sec comms from the AI to the Cap to Antags now have to play-by-wiki. Admins also have to learn them as well to follow along with sec comms.


Heya, I attempted to address your concerns in my post. I cited input from both command and sec players who don't use the codes, and from an antag player who was listening in without knowing the codes.

iamgoofball wrote:They don't use the ten-codes on the RP servers in GTA because they want to, they use it because it's required because GTA RP servers are a complete clusterfuck of rules made for the sake of existing and "realism". GTA RP servers are not good examples of RP, at all. Like, at all at all. Anything actually interesting or creative is stomped on and smashed to bits. You can't have anything that doesn't fit within what some random ass 50 year old boomer's terrible opinion on what is/is not realistic.


I'm sorry that you don't like GTA RP! I wasn't speaking about GTA RP servers in general, I was speaking about the one that most streamers play on, which has a ruleset designed to extend and encourage RP and content creation. If it wasn't actually interesting or creative, I doubt there'd be tens of thousands of people tuning in every day! Besides, I am not trying to bring GTA RP to SS13, I saw other roleplayers on another platform doing a cool thing and thought I might give it a whirl here, too. Edit: I wanted to add that I don't want this thread to devolve into a discussion of how much people like or hate GTA RP, which is off-topic, so I'd appreciate no more replies in that vein.

Misdoubtful wrote:I love the idea of things naturally progressing and developing but I'm also stoutly against things that increase that barrier to entry. Especially for one server in the grand scheme of the entire community of servers.

It feels weird to consider that in order to jump from one TG server to Manuel, you'd need to read a bunch of information and become in the know in order to play on it. In this case, for playing security, or to even just listen to their radio channel.


You already have to read a bunch of information and become in the know to play on Manuel -- it's called the rules and precedents. I'm not necessarily saying this next part to you but to anyone else who might reply, please don't move the goalposts and say that that only further reinforces the point, unless you're implying that you don't like that Manuel has an additional set of rules players need to learn!

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Timberpoes » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:40 am #580369

legality wrote:
Timberpoes wrote:Not optional for sec - If enough people in your department use them, now you either have to use them yourself or get someone to translate constantly. Increases barrier to entry for sec in arbitrary way.

Not optional for non-sec - Anyone non-sec with access to sec comms from the AI to the Cap to Antags now have to play-by-wiki. Admins also have to learn them as well to follow along with sec comms.


Heya, I attempted to address your concerns in my post. I cited input from both command and sec players who don't use the codes, and from an antag player who was listening in without knowing the codes.


The players you should be polling are the new silicons, the first-time antags, the people who may have absolutely 0 sec experience and/or very limited game experience. You asked a player with 300+ captain shifts under his belt, a fairly experienced Sec officer with a number of HoS hours and a player so damn comfortable with the game he mains a character with the blindness quirk.

Everyone from players including silicons to admins will have to know what the 10-codes mean. You've tagged this MRP, so admins that don't regular Manuel but get dragged in to solve ahelps will have to know what the 10-codes mean. The second a player starts using 10-codes, they're obfuscating what they're saying. And as an admin that just doesn't sit right with me, let alone as a player.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Farquaar » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:55 am #580370

As long as I'm still allowed to say "10-4 good buddy", I don't care if all other 10 codes are banned.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Misdoubtful » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:57 am #580371

Misdoubtful wrote:I love the idea of things naturally progressing and developing but I'm also stoutly against things that increase that barrier to entry. Especially for one server in the grand scheme of the entire community of servers.

It feels weird to consider that in order to jump from one TG server to Manuel, you'd need to read a bunch of information and become in the know in order to play on it. In this case, for playing security, or to even just listen to their radio channel.


You already have to read a bunch of information and become in the know to play on Manuel -- it's called the rules and precedents. I'm not necessarily saying this next part to you but to anyone else who might reply, please don't move the goalposts and say that that only further reinforces the point, unless you're implying that you don't like that Manuel has an additional set of rules players need to learn!


I updated my post right after posting it. However... Tacking something like this on insinuates it being a must read, like those rules and precedents.

I'm trying to look at this from a community wide level, and not really a Manuel level. But wouldn't this further create a divide between Manuel and the rest of the servers?

The way I see it, Manuel is an option for RP, not a separation for RP.

Timber sums up the rest yet again better than I could:

The players you should be polling are the new silicons, the first-time antags, the people who may have absolutely 0 sec experience and/or very limited game experience. You asked a player with 300+ captain shifts under his belt, a fairly experienced Sec officer with a number of HoS hours and a player so damn comfortable with the game he mains a character with the blindness quirk.

Everyone from players including silicons to admins will have to know what the 10-codes mean. You've tagged this MRP, so admins that don't regular Manuel but get dragged in to solve ahelps will have to know what the 10-codes mean. The second a player starts using 10-codes, they're obfuscating what they're saying. And as an admin that just doesn't sit right with me, let alone as a player.


If even admins without Manuel experience have to sit and learn it just to deal with issues, isn't that creating a divide and a requirement to know them?
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:49 am #580372

I played with 10 codes once. I joined and a guy handed me a sheet of paper with some codes on it. I used the officer down code when a guy slipped on a soap. It was funny. People complain about entryism for sec or whatever but you also complain when Sec is a bunch of shit chimp randos. You dont have to use codes if you dont want to, theyre just for fun.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Sylphet » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:32 am #580381

I'm with the jannies on this - I had a really hard time learning the tencodes, I had to play sec shifts with the list open and control - f whatever I was trying to say. I'm sure it's not so bad when it's memorised but when everyone around you is using the codes, things are happening in a fast paced job where communication is critical, and you don't know what they're talking about or what is happening, saying that it's not a requirement to use the ten codes sounds very hollow. It's like an entire new language for just security and while I am literally the last person who would ever accept lowering RP standards to make LRPers or new players more comfortable - the ten codes kind of suck to play with, for the same reason that they were retired in real life. I like them as an idea, and I love seeing the amount of work put into making these work as well as the coordination by our regulars into making this work, player driven emergent RP is why we have Manuel, so I hate to see it discouraged, but this kind of crosses a line in its gameplay impact and the difficulties that it creates for admins.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Lacran » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:34 am #580382

I think an important comparison within Security currently would be our legal codes under space law, we don't use them ever and yet the exact same arguments for their use can be made.

The issues have been raised for you a few times, but I do think getting into the nitty gritty to build a greater understanding would be constructive, you clearly care about Security and want to improve player experience, so here's my shot:

they were almost always able to figure out what was meant by people who were using them

Its great that some people find them intuitive, that doesn't mean that the codes themselves are intuitive, looking at these codes with ignorant eyes I can confidently tell you they're not intuitive, and even after some explanation of the codes it can still be difficult to know what exactly is happening where and with/by whom, for some people this system would require constant reference regardless of how familiar they become.

Taking an honest look at ten-codes we find that they would provide brevity for security who are in a potentially dangerous situation, and that IS useful, there's no denying that, however even using short hand English you will find similar results, with the difference being a couple of seconds depending on typing speed. Ten codes can also grant us additional immersion within the role as it imitates actual law enforcement, but there's plenty of ways to immerse yourself without having to learn a new language or code, this is an MRP server.

Currently security struggles alot from a lack uniformity and standardization, interpretations of law, SOP and their enforcement vary widely from round to round so expecting security to all learn and become familiar with these codes to an effective degree is honestly not going to happen. So what happens when people don't know ten-codes but others use them? The answer is they stop being involved with security, they can't reliably get to the bad guy, because the ten codes have formed a language barrier. Ten codes present a blatant barrier for new players and their enjoyment of security, for very little gain.

Ten codes as a concept are supposed to make communication easier, but it requires investment, the investment you're expecting from the playerbase is not reasonable for what they're getting in return, and the consequences of them not engaging with your idea are too severe, I play security and I deal with security alot,I don't find ten codes simple and intuitive, I don't want to learn ten codes, and I don't want people using ten codes. The idea is neat, but it only works if we make it mandatory, and its not worth being mandatory, so don't do it.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:12 pm #580384

10 codes are acceptable on mrp only in the form of "four twenty, six nine, one three three seven", using numbers as numbers(123) is same us using internet speech and emoji in chat

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby cacogen » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:18 pm #580390

There are a lot of novelettes people have written here that I have not read due to being impatient and easily distracted. However, I think shorthand in general should be allowed as not everyone is a TypeRacer champion or courtroom stenographer capable of typing over 150 words per minute with perfect accuracy. I myself seem to be better at typing than most players judging by the contents of the chatbox and my skill at the game ends there. However if you find 10 codes routinely used by double digit IQ cops in the course of killing unarmed civilians somehow more esoteric than the jargon and memes that permeate the server or the complex game mechanics like atmos or chemistry your mind is of fuck. In any case if 10 codes aren't on the wiki putting them there should be enough to solve the suggested problem. It would also be possible to code in-line definitions of certain terms like EpicMafia has which could be defined in a config, similar to blacklisted words. We already have codewords that highlight for certain roles and 10 codes could have in-line definitions only for security.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby NikoTheGuyDude » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:35 pm #580392

If a player from bagil joins manuel, rolls antag, gets sec comms, they shouldn't have to read an entirely OOC document to understand what is going on.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Lumbermancer » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:36 pm #580394

ikarrus already made codes, just use those

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Screemonster » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:31 pm #580395

if you agree OOCly to use a code you devised OOCly in IC comms to make it impossible for players and admins alike to discern what you're talking about without being in on the code, then it's metagaming

it doesn't matter if a few other players know it, it's functionally no different to getting on with your russian buddies and speaking in russian - so there might be a russian player that's also an antag and they'll understand your blyating over the security channel, that doesn't change the fact that none of the admins or other players know what the fuck you're talking about

as for shorthand, shit like 10-4 is fine since just about everyone knows what that one means but when you're getting into specific locations having their own codes so antags (and new sec officers, and silicons) don't know where precisely the officer is down then it kinda defeats the purpose

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby zxaber » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:05 pm #580396

Seems to me that it would be fine if the ten-codes were like appended to the space law page, so that you could use the books to translate.

That said, none of the original reasons the ten-codes were developed apply to SS13 (outside maybe goof's mumble voice chat project), and apparently their use is already being discouraged on some level in favor of regular speech.

I do wish I could warn sec about a "possible 10-37" right before activating the Doomsday, though.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby remanseptim » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:09 pm #580397

this is not hl2rp or gtarp
you are not a stoic badass sci-fi cop
you are a mall cop on a corporate space station who exists as a free baton for urist mctraitor
sec is already an undesirable enough role as it is, don't make people have to learn real life radio codes
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Cobby » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:10 pm #580398

Any code that is sanctioned on the wiki via protected pages should be fine because they are accessible to everyone very easily.

That shouldn’t be the same as spreading around a coded language in discord to use IC (literal meta gaming) over multiple rounds with no ic explanation. Would be fine if the system was setup entirely within the round at the time and you had a paper or something you spread around. You can even use the same system but you still need to set it up ICly every round.

Basically if you are going into a round and expect people to use your custom code without ever having to explain it IC, something is wrong.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby teepeepee » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:32 pm #580403

Cobby wrote:Would be fine if the system was setup entirely within the round at the time and you had a paper or something you spread around. You can even use the same system but you still need to set it up ICly every round.

the guy said this exact thing in his post
why is it so hard to read?
is this ignorance or malice?
only because admins seem to be so adamantly against the MRPtard's posts I'll side with him
muh barrier of entry
the whole game is a fuckhuge ammount of information and only after months of dedication you'll know almost everything there is to know
you will lose many encounters because you lacked critical information that isn't in any wiki, this is no different
tl;dr git gud and play like the MRP people wanna play if you go to their shithole

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Cobby » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:43 pm #580408

I don’t think I directly stated I disagreed (or agreed) with any of his statements.

If his view lines up with mine great.

If headmins views line up with mine even better :)
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby RaveRadbury » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:51 pm #580415

Just overhaul the spacelaw page on the wiki to include a more robust code system. The books are in the game, they look up the page. If they are in the books it's an accessible system and no one is getting excluded from it. The issue is more the accessibility of the codes rather than their existence; if every copy of space law contains the system then this shouldn't be an issue.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Farquaar » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:14 pm #580416

For the purposes of this discussion, people should remember that the codes for criminal offences under Space Law serve a different purpose from 10-codes. Criminal codes are used for describing offences with which an offender may be legally charged, while 10-codes are solely used for radio communications between officers on duty.

I think a lot of people in this thread are confusing the two. Soace Law and 10-codes are entirely separate.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby legality » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:30 pm #580418

Misdoubtful wrote:If even admins without Manuel experience have to sit and learn it just to deal with issues, isn't that creating a divide and a requirement to know them?


I don't see how admins would need to know these codes to handle tickets. They'd been being used for a month and a half with no issues relating to ticket handling to my knowledge, and when I did have admins bwoink me about something or other that happened while I was playing sec, the use of the ten-codes never came up.

Lacran wrote:I think an important comparison within Security currently would be our legal codes under space law, we don't use them ever and yet the exact same arguments for their use can be made.


I don't understand this. Can you explain how their usage would be similar?

Screemonster wrote:if you agree OOCly to use a code you devised OOCly in IC comms to make it impossible for players and admins alike to discern what you're talking about without being in on the code, then it's metagaming

it doesn't matter if a few other players know it, it's functionally no different to getting on with your russian buddies and speaking in russian - so there might be a russian player that's also an antag and they'll understand your blyating over the security channel, that doesn't change the fact that none of the admins or other players know what the fuck you're talking about

as for shorthand, shit like 10-4 is fine since just about everyone knows what that one means but when you're getting into specific locations having their own codes so antags (and new sec officers, and silicons) don't know where precisely the officer is down then it kinda defeats the purpose


Again, as I stated in my OP, most of the work relating to the ten-codes was done IC!

As an aside, there are no abbreviations or codes for different locations in the game. To give an example interaction:
[Common] Harmyeller yells, "Help I'm being harmed in medbay!!"
[Security] Sec Officer A says, "10-45." (Crime reported on general comms,)
[Security] Sec Officer B says, "10-4. 10-27 medbay" (acknowledged, en-route to medbay)

In this example, the location is spelled out.

As far as speaking in other languages goes, there's already a lot of lizard and felinid players who use draconic and nekokimetic on sec comms when a lot of them are on.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby JusticeGoat » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:39 pm #580419

From what i understand is the list of 10 codes where never kept secret from any of the other players, if someone wanted to learn them they where allowed to do so. Same if a sec officer didn't use them i never saw them punished for it. The argument that its unfair to the other antags is ridiculous, everyone started out new and didn't understand the features of the game or the lingo, this just adds another layer people will adapt to given enough time anyone who cares or not will understand it.

Manuel is a role play server and wouldn't it be good to encourage out of the box thinking adding such things to the mix? Garrysmod, gta online rp and various other community's have adapted this to their games with no issue. I found this a charming way to immerse myself in RP on the server, if you called that cringe well that's fine because i enjoy my cringe.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Misdoubtful » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:03 pm #580421

RaveRadbury wrote:Just overhaul the spacelaw page on the wiki to include a more robust code system. The books are in the game, they look up the page. If they are in the books it's an accessible system and no one is getting excluded from it. The issue is more the accessibility of the codes rather than their existence; if every copy of space law contains the system then this shouldn't be an issue.


If it's something to exist it really should be this way, on the wikis and easily accessible in game. Not Manuel exclusive, nor only shared through a paper ic and on a Discord seperate from the rest of the community.

I feel the Manuel tag here detracts from the point of how this might be best approached as an overall ruling (which it is) and not a Manuel issue (is not): as something to be completely and totally accessible by the entire community, and left as a suggestible document just like space law (as faulty as it is).

I'm a bit of a broken record here but again, I don't see why this should exist if its just for one server and not for everyone.

The way things played out with it not meeting the criteria above probably didn't help things in hindsight.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Dopamiin » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:23 am #580425

seems odd to shut down a player who goes out of their way to roleplay.

Misdoubtful wrote:
If it's something to exist it really should be this way, on the wikis and easily accessible in game. Not Manuel exclusive, nor only shared through a paper ic and on a Discord seperate from the rest of the community.


agree, but it's not like the player could just. up and post it on the wiki out of nowhere. the way i understand it they made the best use of the tools available to them.

i understand the concerns for understandability but the way i see it this is an optional roleplay element that's meant to be available to anyone who wants access to it, and it seems the codes are vaguely understandable now even w/o knowledge of them. it'd be a different matter entirely if they were just up and coding entire conversations, but a few quick response codes that generally seem to have similar meanings and are intended to allow quick communication seems ultimately better for the game.

besides, i'd rather have some code said over radio than some all caps "X BAD" or "MEDBAY"
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby cacogen » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:48 am #580426

teepeepee wrote:the whole game is a fuckhuge ammount of information and only after months of dedication you'll know almost everything there is to know
you will lose many encounters because you lacked critical information that isn't in any wiki, this is no different

Yes, this is like saying we should revert Cobbychem to Trekchem because I don't know it and am too lazy to learn it and it's overly complicated.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Vekter » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:57 am #580433

I stand by my opinion that these are really cool, but they honestly belong somewhere like Citadel or Bay that handles RP a lot more seriously than we do. As someone who's done a lot of RP and does want to see it taken more seriously, I think it's a really neat solution to an annoying problem for sec, but I also gotta side with Timber on this - it adds further complication to what's already a complicated job and makes it much more difficult for antags to listen in on sec chatter - a boon they deserve if they actually managed to get a hold of a sec headset or encryption key.

It kinda sucks because I don't want to be the guy to stifle someone's RP creativity (because trust me, I love shit like this) but it really just doesn't fit how things work on /tg/.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby legality » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:08 am #580435

Sylphet wrote:I'm with the jannies on this - I had a really hard time learning the tencodes, I had to play sec shifts with the list open and control - f whatever I was trying to say. I'm sure it's not so bad when it's memorised but when everyone around you is using the codes, things are happening in a fast paced job where communication is critical, and you don't know what they're talking about or what is happening, saying that it's not a requirement to use the ten codes sounds very hollow. It's like an entire new language for just security and while I am literally the last person who would ever accept lowering RP standards to make LRPers or new players more comfortable - the ten codes kind of suck to play with, for the same reason that they were retired in real life. I like them as an idea, and I love seeing the amount of work put into making these work as well as the coordination by our regulars into making this work, player driven emergent RP is why we have Manuel, so I hate to see it discouraged, but this kind of crosses a line in its gameplay impact and the difficulties that it creates for admins.


I'm sorry you had trouble getting used to the ten-codes. There were several people who said the same thing as you as far as it being too much to memorize, so I sat down with several of them and reworked it until they said it was something that they liked much better and would try using. I hope you get the chance to try the new version - it should be much more easy to get used to.

As far as why you think they were retired -- I've heard a lot of weird stuff from a lot of people on why they think ten-codes are being retired and why it means they're a bad thing, but the official reasoning is literally on the Wikipedia page for ten-codes. The federal government recommended retiring them because of a lack of standardization. Not because they were hard to use, but because it made inter-departmental cooperation on big assignments complicated and confusing. There's only one security department in the game, fortunately, so that's not an issue for us.

Besides, we have a lot of things in game that were retired in real life, like PDAs.

Vekter wrote:I stand by my opinion that these are really cool, but they honestly belong somewhere like Citadel or Bay that handles RP a lot more seriously than we do. As someone who's done a lot of RP and does want to see it taken more seriously, I think it's a really neat solution to an annoying problem for sec, but I also gotta side with Timber on this - it adds further complication to what's already a complicated job and makes it much more difficult for antags to listen in on sec chatter - a boon they deserve if they actually managed to get a hold of a sec headset or encryption key.

It kinda sucks because I don't want to be the guy to stifle someone's RP creativity (because trust me, I love shit like this) but it really just doesn't fit how things work on /tg/.


Forgive me if I'm mistaken, and I don't mean this to be rude, but neither you nor timber have played sec recently or used the ten-codes. I think yours and timber's contributions should be taken with a grain of salt compared to the players and admins in this thread who did play with and utilize the ten-codes. Unless he is spawning himself in in a way that avoids detection by scrubby, timberpoes has played 3 rounds since June and none since the middle of August, although he is frequently observing rounds, like you. I notice that you have five rounds played (two antagonist) on record during the period that the codes were being used; did you take a syndicomm chip and have trouble understanding sec comms? Would you have had trouble doing so if we had been using the new system, knowing what you do about it, having read my OP?

I'd like to reiterate that shortly before the ban, the codes were slimmed down and reorganized to be far more intuitive to learn and use, considerably reducing their complexity.

I also want a truly MRP Manuel. If you want RP to be taken more seriously, why wouldn't you support endeavors that would encourage that and move us closer to that sort of environment?

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Screemonster » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:13 am #580436

legality wrote:Besides, we have a lot of things in game that were retired in real life, like PDAs.

what is a smartphone if not a PDA with a mobile phone in it

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby legality » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:15 am #580437

Sorry to double post -- but if the headmins don't want to fully endorse the ten-codes I'd like to toss in the idea of a probationary period of a couple of months to try out the revamped system. They can be added to the wiki and allowed to be used, and feedback from players and admins can be gathered on it. If it seems to be a boon for the game and the state of RP, they can stay, and if it's a net negative, they can go.

Edit: whoops, not a double post.

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Vekter » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:21 am #580441

legality wrote:Forgive me if I'm mistaken, and I don't mean this to be rude, but neither you nor timber have played sec recently or used the ten-codes. I think yours and timber's contributions should be taken with a grain of salt compared to the players and admins in this thread who did play with and utilize the ten-codes. Unless he is spawning himself in in a way that avoids detection by scrubby, timberpoes has played 3 rounds since June and none since the middle of August, although he is frequently observing rounds, like you. I notice that you have five rounds played (two antagonist) on record during the period that the codes were being used; did you take a syndicomm chip and have trouble understanding sec comms? Would you have had trouble doing so if we had been using the new system, knowing what you do about it, having read my OP?


You are aware that admins can see literally everything that's being said everywhere at all times, right? I've actively seen the codes in use and I feel the same as the headmins.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby actioninja » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:11 am #580444

Jesus christ can you say anything in less than a 10 page essay I would give a shit but this thread hurts my head to try to read
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Misdoubtful » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:19 am #580446

legality wrote:Forgive me if I'm mistaken, and I don't mean this to be rude, but neither you nor timber have played sec recently or used the ten-codes. I think yours and timber's contributions should be taken with a grain of salt compared to the players and admins in this thread who did play with and utilize the ten-codes. Unless he is spawning himself in in a way that avoids detection by scrubby, timberpoes has played 3 rounds since June and none since the middle of August, although he is frequently observing rounds, like you. I notice that you have five rounds played (two antagonist) on record during the period that the codes were being used; did you take a syndicomm chip and have trouble understanding sec comms? Would you have had trouble doing so if we had been using the new system, knowing what you do about it, having read my OP?


It REALLY shouldn't be a requirement to actively play on Manuel or to have played sec and/or used ten codes to voice an opinion on them.

Especially for admins who more often that not are observing and seeing their use while observing, etc. Just because ahelps haven't come up, doesn't mean admins don't have to read through logs containing them, so the moment they have to deal with a situation revolving around them or caused by them without understanding them is inevitable, right? As such they have to know them to be able to deal with the situation to the best, yeah?
Last edited by Misdoubtful on Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:18 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby trollbreeder » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:38 am #580448

actioninja wrote:Jesus christ can you say anything in less than a 10 page essay I would give a shit but this thread hurts my head to try to read

tldr of original post for your convenience;
I played on manual as sec and made a ten-code system, inspired by GTA RP.
I then talked with other sec officers and they liked it.
I pasted the list of ten-codes on pieces of paper, then copied it.
I also gave new sec officers a copy and tell them what they are and that they're a voluntary gimmick.
I made a new version of the ten-codes to be better and easier to learn, but they were banned before i could officially update the codes.

My argument is that the ten-codes are easier to learn than languages. My fellow sec officers and even a traitor, even though they didn't use the codes, they could figure out the meanings.
The ten-codes are entirely IC. Introduction was IC. Any updates are IC, done with a meeting. Feedback was IC.
They were also made as public as possible, such as a pastebin, and free copies given to any who ask. I wanted to put them on the wiki, but got no response.

I argue that there'd be more of a barrier to playing sec, being the most important role as primary foil for antags, and are very largely RP focused out of combat. Because it looks easy on the surface (though it's actually quite hard), a lot of new players end up choosing officer and get called "shitcurity", not willing to learn.

I don't have any worry for cliques forming, because my best sec partner didn't use the codes, and there was no hate for the people who didn't, either.

I'm worried that this might have a chilling effect, because at first i was told it was "really cool" by admins, and later they were banned for good without warning. This makes us scared that if we ever attempt something like this again, we could be shut down at any time without warning by admin ruling.

When you start an RP server, you're not just starting a multiplayer game, you're starting a community that's going to pick up quirks and culture. It's expected that there will be a barrier for entry to participate in that.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Cobby » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:31 am #580480

The thread title and focus is slightly misleading because whatever is ruled on for the specific incident of the sec larpers 10-X codes is going to also be applied to other forms of codes that may appear in a round. Think it's really important to mention that the ruling is of a much larger scope about the use of codes in one round, multiple rounds, etc. than just some guys sec larp codes.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Farquaar » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:33 am #580481

Cobby wrote:sec larpers

They're in a video game, cobby

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Cobby » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:35 am #580482

silence forum larper
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Screemonster » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:40 am #580502

Cobby wrote:The thread title and focus is slightly misleading because whatever is ruled on for the specific incident of the sec larpers 10-X codes is going to also be applied to other forms of codes that may appear in a round. Think it's really important to mention that the ruling is of a much larger scope about the use of codes in one round, multiple rounds, etc. than just some guys sec larp codes.

generally I can't see any viable argument against the principle that OOCly agreeing among yourselves to use a code-speak that's incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't been inducted into the in-group is bad

if a bunch of players had a meta-document of the most effective bomb mixes or whatever and just shared them among their private discord group and didn't put it on the wiki and only chosen players were allowed access to the holy texts then it'd be recognised as obviously cliquey and awful, the only saving grace of the 10-codes is that they were making them available to people who asked, but that doesn't solve issues like "what if someone buys a syndicate headset and security are speaking in code" because the traitor can't exactly ask IC for the list of codes without giving away the fact that they're listening in on sec comms

if people wanna put an official list of 10-codes on the wiki and say "these are the official nanotrasen sec larper codes" then that's an entirely different matter

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby cacogen » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:11 am #580504

If you don't put on the helmet and armour vest while playing security can you really call yourself robust
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby stan_albatross » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:16 pm #580514

cacogen wrote:If you don't put on the helmet and armour vest while playing security can you really call yourself robust


yeah because I use the coat
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Farquaar » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:11 pm #580515

cacogen wrote:If you don't put on the helmet and armour vest while playing security can you really call yourself robust

Security cap or go home

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Cobby » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:06 pm #580517

@screen That seems like 2 different situations though.

1. Using a coded language in general

2. Establishing something via OOC to use IC with no explanation IC

2 is already disallowed and according to the posts wasn’t applicable to the incident that caused this thread, otherwise I would very much agree with that ruling for this instance. This is exactly why I said earlier the thread is a bit misleading because we have people saying the 10 codes were not ok due to rules we already have in place rather than discussing should coded language be acceptable in general (assume everything is IC) which the current ruling doesn’t cover iirc
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Giocorn » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:06 am #580542

I hate these 10 codes with a burning passion; seriously, I despise them. Every single time that Dolce has tried getting me to use the codes, I have refused because I personally don't like using them. With that said, I hope you can understand how much I must hate this ban to even consider defending these 10 codes.

My in game name is Samuel Price. I've played in a lot of shifts with Diamond Dolce, and I've been around since he first started trying to use these 10 codes, and I can attest to a few things: 1.) Diamond has ALWAYS made an in-game note sheet which details all of the codes, and passed them out to the Security Department. If somebody didn't know what they were, he'd discuss the base idea with them first. 2.) Diamond has NEVER forced anybody to use these codes, and the only people using them are the people that choose to do so. 3.) As somebody who vehemently refuses to use these codes, I can attest that they are incredibly easy to work around and understand in context.

The ban was an unnecessarily extreme action to take. Diamond was being considerate and conscientious, was willing to revise and edit the codes based on feedback (such as my own, WillLaWill's, and Rhials'), and had done his best to establish these codes IC every single time he tried to use them. They aren't limiting or restricting, they don't make the role of Security any harder to play, and they most certainly do not harm the Roleplay experience; hell, the entire point of the codes was ENHANCING the roleplay experience. They were a good idea, all things considered. Do I think they should necessarily be supported as an official part of TG Sec? No. Do I think that they SHOULDN'T be banned? Yes. The most extreme action that should have been taken by the admins was a simple announcement of, "Hey, if people are using these codes in a toxic manner, please report it to us and we'll see to it." By banning these 10 codes they are setting a precedent that any attempt at an RP gimmick that they don't like can be banned and punished with a flick of the wrist, which is deeply concerning to people who love their crazy RP gimmicks (such as me and my Revengers Initiative).

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby Man_Shroom » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:19 am #580544

its quite sad that people have banned roleplay attempts, especially when it happens on the supposed 'roleplay' server, aka unrobust server.

but since people do raise a good point about coded language being, well, coded, and therefore another layer to learn for the job and potentially exclusionary to new players, i will give you a solution from the good graces of my greytide heart

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

as you can see there are already existing codes for a majority of ingame crimes, and it would be quite easy for these to be expanded on and used as official community standard codes. however, at the end of the day it might just be better to type ":s break in at sci" instead of ":s 309 and 407 at sci"

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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:24 am #580548

Giocorn wrote:stuff

As someone who rejects the codes, how do you react when people use them? Do you ask on comms what said code means? Do you just ignore what they said? Or do you commit the codes to memory so that you can respond to them, but just don't use them when reporting what you are doing?
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