[MRP] Security Ten-Codes

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legality
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[MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by legality » #580351

Bottom post of the previous page:

This post is in regards to the banning of the use of ten-codes on /tg/station servers. The most recent version of the ten-codes can be found here: https://pastebin.com/AcRHghFP

So I’ve been playing /tg/station on and off since the beginning, ten years ago. I most recently came back a few months ago with some inspiration to create a sec character, Diamond Dolce, after spending a long time watching RP streamers play GTA RP. On the server most of them play on, NoPixel, they all use voice-chat and cop players have a system of ten-codes they use on in-game radio to speed up communications. I thought the entire gimmick was really cool and added a lot of immersion to the RP, so I talked with some of the other sec mains to find out what they thought, got positive feedback, and then took NoPixel’s system of police codes, cut out ~70% of them, and tweaked the remainder to be more relevant to SS13. That was version 1. It was confusing, bloated, and hard to learn, but a lot of us had fun using it with each other. I would paste the list to a piece of paper every round that I played sec, and then use the copier in security to make several copies to hand out. If there was a player I hadn’t seen before on the sec team, I would specifically speak to them and hand them a copy of the codes, explaining what they were and being very clear that it was a voluntary gimmick that they didn’t have to participate in if they didn’t want to.

More recently, after working with some players that were critical of the system to address concerns, I released version 2, which slimmed it down further to just 20 codes and reorganized the codes to be more intuitive and easier to pick up. Instead of the codes being listed randomly, you could, in just a few seconds, learn that if you heard a radio code that was in the 10-10s, that meant an officer was in an emergency situation, if you heard one in the 10-20s, that meant they were talking about moving/meeting/arriving to different locations, and if you heard one in the 10-30s that meant they’d identified a hostile target.

Before version 2 could be truly rolled out, the headmins posted a ruling in Discord stating that the use of ten-codes was banned. The point of this thread is to inquire about the exact reasonings for this ruling, engage the community and the headmins in a discussion about it, to justify the existence and usage of this system as an emergent RP system, and the chilling effect this ruling might have on similar efforts to bring life and complexity to Manuel.

The stated, official reasoning for the ruling is here:
The use of short-hand codes for communication in any department, specifically 10-10 codes, are not allowed. Our servers are English only which makes this style of codified speak subversive and makes the applicable channels too unfriendly to new or fair-weather players.
My response would be:
It’s not easy to learn a new language. It can take years of effort. Conversely, with the new system of ten-codes, it should take a matter of seconds to understand the broad strokes and easily interpret most of the codes with situational context and surrounding language. With the old system, this was still possible, but with less ease: during the initial Discord conversation discussing the ruling, sec and command regulars Samuel Price and Rhials Duffy both attested to the fact that, though they didn’t use the ten-codes, they were almost always able to figure out what was meant by people who were using them; Melbert, who plays Smells-the-Roses, recently posted a YouTube video of a round where they play a traitor with a syndicate comms chip, listening into sec comms on a round where the ten-codes were used heavily. They told me after the fact that “in general, yes, they weren’t that difficult to decipher.”

Other admins listed various other criticisms as part of the ruling during the initial discussion on discord. I will also address these. These are mishmashed quotes strung together from multiple messages by multiple admins:
It's not RP when it's happening OOCly and shared only in this discord. It is a system of communication existing entirely outside of the game. These codes aren't publicly available, so the only way to know it is to have one of the players in on it let you know about it.
Okay, there seems to be some major misunderstanding going on here. This system was made after discussions that my character had with other officers IC. It was introduced IC. When updates to it were made, I would play HoS, call a meeting, and announce it IC. Feedback on the codes was sought IC and the first ever update I made to them was after I received IC feedback. 95% of players first introduction to this system was by someone talking to them about it and offering them a copy of it IC.

As to the codes not being publicly available: I made them as public as possible. If anyone outside of sec ever asked for a copy, it was given to them. Links to a pastebin copy were pinned in the #security-class channel on the Manuel discord, with the latest version having had 70 total views and the version before that having 92. After supportive staff members recommended I do so, I contacted the headmins on multiple occasions about posting the codes as a resource available on the wiki. I never received a response. Once the system was more refined, I planned to make a forum post about it. Every effort was made to make them publicly available.
We don't want cliques to form or for new players to have a new hurdle to overcome just to participate in one of the most important parts of the game, communication.
Personally, I would love for there to be more of a visible barrier of entry to playing sec. Sec is one of the most important roles in the game, as they act as the primary foil for antagonists and, beyond combat situations, are largely an RP-focused role. A good sec player will do everything in their power to extend RP with prisoners and minimize any saltiness on their part -- being caught is supposed to be another part of the game, and it should still be fun for people who are willing to play along. If the people you arrest aren't having fun, there's either something wrong with their approach to the game or there's something wrong with how you're engaging with them. There's a lot of nuance, even if it doesn't look like it from the outside. And the fact that it does look easy and approachable from the outside means that a lot of newer players sign up to security and think they can learn it on their own, without asking more veteran players for help or taking any cues from them, and will even get offended and defensive if you suggest they do. Rounds when the majority of sec consist of players like this are usually when the cries of shitcurity are the loudest. We shouldn't be afraid to make security more complex than it currently is on an RP server. This is the very reason that a lot of RP servers have Security Cadet job slots.

I don't think there was any worry for cliques forming. I was the person who started the system, and the person I most commonly partnered with on the force was someone who didn't use the ten-codes. There was some hate centered on me specifically from certain security players, but not on people in general just for using the ten-codes, and not in the opposite direction towards people who didn't use them.

Lastly, I wanted to say that this ruling might have an unintended chilling effect on future efforts towards emergent RP gimmicks by players. I was initially messaged by an admin about a week after I'd started using the first draft of the ten-codes, saying that adminbus had discussed the topic and decided it was really cool, and I should go with it full steam ahead. I had no further contact about it until I saw an announcement that they were banned for good -- not even a PM or a heads up or anything. This is a pretty bad precedent, in my opinion. In the future, if a bunch of players came together to do something like establish a common lore setting to write our character backstories by, and attempt to have some storywriters make ongoing out-of-station storylines by news releases to go with it and give people things to make small talk about, publishing issues IC as library books and passing them around to create discussion, there's now a fear of admins coming by and telling us that the whole thing is banned because it's "cliquish" and "unfriendly to new players," at any time, even if we had prior admin approval for it. There's also a secondary issue in that this discussion and decision about an emergent RP feature was made completely without including the people participating in and developing that feature, which I don't think should happen. Discussions and rulings like this shouldn't be made completely behind the scenes, or at least should include the people who would be effected by it the most.

When you start an RP server, you're not just starting a multiplayer game, you're starting a community that's going to pick up quirks and culture. It's expected that there will be a barrier for entry to participate in that.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Mickyan » #580800

WillLaWill wrote:
  • Sec codes contain considerably less information than a real language, and are almost always accompanied by english plaintext which gives away their meaning
  • Intercepting security communcations often takes literally no effort, at most it takes 2 TC, and security has literally no countermeasures for it except communicating solely via PDAs even if they do somehow find out it has happened. Making it a little harder isn't a bad thing
It is not disingenuous to compare codes to the way different languages can be used to obfuscate information from those that do not have knowledge of them, which is something you're keenly aware of considering you just mentioned it as being one of its benefits
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Screemonster » #580801

Mickyan wrote:
WillLaWill wrote:
  • Sec codes contain considerably less information than a real language, and are almost always accompanied by english plaintext which gives away their meaning
  • Intercepting security communcations often takes literally no effort, at most it takes 2 TC, and security has literally no countermeasures for it except communicating solely via PDAs even if they do somehow find out it has happened. Making it a little harder isn't a bad thing
It is not disingenuous to compare codes to the way different languages can be used to obfuscate information from those that do not have knowledge of them, which is something you're keenly aware of considering you just mentioned it as being one of its benefits
if the complaint is "we have to do it to obfuscate our communications because eavesdropping is too cheap/easy" then surely that's a game balance issue that's better solved with a code solution such as increasing the cost of syndicate radio keys or making it so a sec encryption key requires a mindshield implant before it'll function so you can't just slip an officer and steal his headset for sec radio access

not saying that either of those are a good idea but they'd both make it a little harder to gain access to sec comms
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by ArcaneDefence » #580803

Screemonster wrote: surely that's a game balance issue that's better solved with a code solution such as increasing the cost of syndicate radio keys or making it so a sec encryption key requires a mindshield implant before it'll function so you can't just slip an officer and steal his headset for sec radio access
No one does this. No one has a reason to do this.
There's tons of sec radios available around the station in lockers and in the gulag.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by cacogen » #580817

what we have here is a failure to communicate
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Cobby » #580840

Make a sec-only language that replaces whatever gay ass rp you’re doing with the ten codes and military alphabet.

This will secure the comms more, allow you to “use” the codes, and make sec the goofy mall cop who wants to larp as the military hardass even more.

On a more serious note, why has the defense of this gone outside policy realm? Who cares about balance for the purpose of policy??? It’s like arguing you should be able to kill off people for little reason because it helps balance the oxygen use of atmos.

This thread has ran its course and honestly was decided before it was made. I don’t think anyone who agreed with the codes now disagrees or vice-versa. If we’re at the point the defense is about “I’m doing this to balance the game” we’ve long past the start of diminishing returns.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by oranges » #580843

Cobby wrote:Make a sec-only language that replaces whatever gay ass rp you’re doing with the ten codes and military alphabet.
This had better be a joke
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by remanseptim » #580845

>be me, zachary chester the amazing glove-stealing cat
>CE spots me
>shove him, take baton for daring to interrupt my god-given right to steal
>he reports me to sec
>sec corners me, says: "give up!"
>i hear it as "delta alpha tango sapphire delta bravo alpha squad romeo romeo delta"
>scared and confused, i bludgeon the nonsense-spewing mall cop
>get banned
fucking gamestop
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Qustinnus » #580847

manuel was a mistake\
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Cobby » #580869

oranges wrote:
Cobby wrote:Make a sec-only language that replaces whatever gay ass rp you’re doing with the ten codes and military alphabet.
This had better be a joke
I thought the linebreak followed by “on a more serious note” would have made this clear :(


It would be incredibly funny tho
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by FloranOtten » #580874

It's honestly sad that you aren't even willing to consider our viewpoints, or give what we've contributed to this discussion a chance. In instances like these, where the topic is complex, the defense is probable to be somewhat long. Will you please try to give our points a read, and consider the merits they may hold?
Nah, it's not just a complex topic that requires long posts. Every post you lads have made could be summed up in 4 sentences without losing any value. All you're doing is typing more while adding less.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Farquaar » #580879

FloranOtten wrote:Every post you lads have made could be summed up in 4 sentences without losing any value. All you're doing is typing more while adding less.
FNR in a nutshell.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by confused rock » #580919

I thought the real point behind ten codes was typing less words
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by saprasam » #580923

confused rock wrote:I thought the real point behind ten codes was typing less words
NO. TYPE MORE WORDS
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Ayy Lemoh » #580934

confused rock wrote:I thought the real point behind ten codes was typing less words
If we were allowed to use our ten codes then this thread would be 10 essays shorter!
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by cacogen » #580941

I find certain game mechanics to be the equivalent of ten-codes in their lack of intuitiveness and explanation. As this gives players knowledgeable of them an unfair advantage I propose we ban these as well.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #580953

cacogen wrote:I find certain game mechanics to be the equivalent of ten-codes in their lack of intuitiveness and explanation. As this gives players knowledgeable of them an unfair advantage I propose we ban these as well.
time for my two cents since this is a peanut gallery

The argument of "game mechanics are hard to understand so therefore this is ok" makes a grand total of approximately no sense to me. There's a difference between "game mechanics are hard to understand" and "players are actively making themselves harder to understand", where using these wacky wild woohoo ten-codes just makes it harder for those who don't have access to this ic sheet of paper now have to desperately find a translation guide to understand what's basically channel encryption.

If your argument is that "but ten-codes enhance rp!!!!!!" just type out what the ten code means after the code and I'm sure that nobody would have a problem with this. You're still getting the actual information through, now with just a fancy code that means the same thing as the full message in front of it. Using the code by itself just makes it harder for those who don't understand to... well, understand, and arguing that "but it's too easy for traitors to listen in, reee" is something for the c*ders to decide, not you.
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Re: [MRP] Security Ten-Codes

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #580963

We have gone through the discussion in this thread and our opinion on the ten codes remains unchanged. We appreciate the fact that the intention behind them was to facilitate roleplay but believe this is not the way to go about it.

A great deal of memorization is required of individual players for them to properly use the system, and thats a barrier we don't want players to have to overcome when learning security or an antagonist role.
While its not necessarily a requirement to know them it puts any player who doesn't know them at a significant disadvantage; because they won't know whats going on from radio chatter.

Finally at this point in time we don't have much interest in any code based callout system for security. This includes the space law codes on the wiki, as that page results in 32 unique codes which again is what we don't want to see.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.
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