If Hippie isn't a valid "go get time on another server" place, it should be in the rules.

[iamgoofball]

See title.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28108
^ Example of the problem.

Hippie is a shitty, awful place. We all agree on that.

However, we didn't have in our rules that you couldn't use hippie station as your time off /tg/ player reference. As one of the few direct /tg/ downstreams with equal RP levels to Basil, players are likely to gravitate towards it.

We should either append that hippie isn't allowed for permaban appeals to the rules, or stop denying hippie station as an appeal.

[Hulkamania]

Endorsements of any kind do not automatically mean they are valid or invalid, they are simply used as evidence. You cannot blame people for measuring up a certain kind of evidence and finding it wanting.

[oranges]

our rules don't say anything about endorsements, because they're entirely unofficial, and up to the banning admin.

They have no special standing, an an endorsement doesn't mean you can get unbanned either.

[Cobby]

the appeal isnt even answered yet by a headmin why bother making the thread

[NecromancerAnne]

Also, MSO stated on discord that the Hippie host isn't even in hostchat, so that endorsement couldn't be verified anyway. So it means next to nothing. It'd be like going 'my pal Frank started a server and made me admin, please I've been a good boy lemme back in'.

[iamgoofball]

It may not be official policy but it's been the unofficial precedent for literal decades, and you know it. Either codify it in the rules, or quit using it.

[Lacran]

If an admin is going to tell you to get a recommendation from another server, they shouldn't then tell you, a year later that the endorsement you got was from the wrong server, you're setting up someone to fail.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

If an admin is going to tell you to get a recommendation from another server, they shouldn't then tell you, a year later that the endorsement you got was from the wrong server, you're setting up someone to fail.

[oranges]

if they go to a server that isn't worth endorsing they're self selecting out of /tg/ and that's a good thing

[cacogen]

Hippie reminded me a lot of the school I went to. Somebody should've brought a gun.

[kopoba]

Also, MSO stated on discord that the Hippie host isn't even in hostchat, so that endorsement couldn't be verified anyway. So it means next to nothing. It'd be like going 'my pal Frank started a server and made me admin, please I've been a good boy lemme back in'.

Can we have list of servers that in "hostchat"?

[Lacran]

Admins should make an effort to be transparent and communicative through the appeal process, shit like "go get an endorsement from another server" then two years later saying "oh, wrong server" is scummy goalpost moving. That kind of practice is how you go from a fair community with clear guidelines like Tg to shittermins and their dens of metapals.

If you give an appealer a hoop to jump through make it clear what the exceptions are, not two years later. This isn't about hippie being a shithole or not, it's about admins being able to effectively communicate and constructively establish guidelines.

[MrAlphonzo]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... gs#p470807

Here is their last ban appeal.

At no point in the thread did I instruct the player to go to another server seeking out an endorsement, or any other member of the admin staff for that matter. Nor is any such instruction given in the ban reason.

If an admin is going to tell you to get a recommendation from another server, they shouldn't then tell you, a year later that the endorsement you got was from the wrong server, you're setting up someone to fail.

^ This is inaccurate.

[Cobby]

Id be more inclined to believe the notion if not for the fact that if you are in need of recommendations you probably have been banned with the duration intended to have you fuck off.

The point at which you are seeking recommendations and you arent actually arguing the validity of the ban, you should probably drop the "player rights" crap.

That said, ideally there would be a list of servers that we trust enough to nab recommendations for.

[Misdoubtful]

No one is forcing anyone to get a vouch here.

No one is forcing them to use an old dead server vouch either.

Hippie has been dead for what, ten months? On top of no one in hostchat to be able to verify for them on a now dead server?

If they care that much about getting a vouch it isn't hard to find someone from another server able to vouch for them that wouldn't be from ten months ago. Unless they have only been on dead pop Hippie.

If someone is having difficulty and they have to be selective about which servers they can get a vouch from thats kinda on them honestly.

As others said that vouch might not even mean anything in the end, because its more about the lessons learned from a mistake than it is a, 'look I've been good'.

[Lacran]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... gs#p470807

I didn't mean my statement as a veiled attack at you, nor how you are handling the current appeal, I'm talking about the practice of requesting recommendations as a whole, and how if there's standards regarding these, they should be clear.

No one is forcing anyone to get a vouch here.

No one is forcing them to use an old dead server vouch either.

Admins have, and do ask from players to get a vouch from another server to establish behavioral improvement, it should be common sense that making clear which servers are valid for a vouch would be important.

[MrStonedOne]

Also, MSO stated on discord that the Hippie host isn't even in hostchat, so that endorsement couldn't be verified anyway. So it means next to nothing. It'd be like going 'my pal Frank started a server and made me admin, please I've been a good boy lemme back in'.

Can we have list of servers that in "hostchat"?

Every server that regularly gets ~20 players (i think it was, might be lower) at peak, except hippie station, who refuses to join it.

[cacogen]

They sound too based and redpilled to join your model UN and become the cucks they know themselves to be

[kopoba]

Also, MSO stated on discord that the Hippie host isn't even in hostchat, so that endorsement couldn't be verified anyway. So it means next to nothing. It'd be like going 'my pal Frank started a server and made me admin, please I've been a good boy lemme back in'.

Can we have list of servers that in "hostchat"?

Every server that regularly gets ~20 players (i think it was, might be lower) at peak, except hippie station, who refuses to join it.

Can you confirm this one? https://taucetistation.org/

[Domitius]

I have no issue with Hippie station or any station for that matter.

With the ban appeal you've chosen as an example though there was no effort from them to translate their foreign admin status into any sort of tangible voucher. As they did not provide an admin feedback thread on their forums(Which I cannot find a reference to in their old admins or present after several look-throughs) and nobody from old Hippie to talk and verify their claims with this also makes recognizing their endorsement impossible.

Endorsement and vouchers will always need context as well as some sort of verifiable legitimacy before they can be considered in an appeal.

I do not wish for us to maintain a "no vouch" list of servers like you propose.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

I have no issue with Hippie station or any station for that matter.

With the ban appeal you've chosen as an example though there was no effort from them to translate their foreign admin status into any sort of tangible voucher. As they did not provide an admin feedback thread on their forums(Which I cannot find a reference to in their old admins or present after several look-throughs) and nobody from old Hippie to talk and verify their claims with this also makes recognizing their endorsement impossible.

Endorsement and vouchers will always need context as well as some sort of verifiable legitimacy before they can be considered in an appeal.

I do not wish for us to maintain a "no vouch" list of servers like you propose.

Perhaps having a statement like this as one of the "ban appeal rules" threads instead of a list?

[Armhulen]

Also, MSO stated on discord that the Hippie host isn't even in hostchat, so that endorsement couldn't be verified anyway. So it means next to nothing. It'd be like going 'my pal Frank started a server and made me admin, please I've been a good boy lemme back in'.

Can we have list of servers that in "hostchat"?

Every server that regularly gets ~20 players (i think it was, might be lower) at peak, except hippie station, who refuses to join it.

Honestly, would hippie be let back in if they asked? Not anymore

[oranges]

if host chat is so cool, how come I'm banned from it

[Not-Dorsidarf]

if host chat is so cool, how come I'm banned from it

They need some room to fit in everyone else's ego.

[cacogen]

Man down

[Coconutwarrior97]

We aren't interested in adding a list like this to the rules.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.