Think about just disabling wizard, once and for all

[NikoTheGuyDude]

I've seen many many people complaining about wizard, as it's literally just a one-man powertrip with no consideration to anyone else. However, none of them has made a thread on just removing wizard. So, in an act of fostering discussion, I'll step up and make the relevant thread.

Personally I hate wizard and wished it was fully disabled on Manuel, mainly because its too disruptive and too damn /powerful/. It's not the worst antag, though... cough cult cough

Edit: To clarify, I personally want it disabled on manuel but it also has plenty of reasons to be disabled on other servers. I dont want to overstep my bounds and enforce my will on things I don't know about, but since others want it disabled outside of manuel, I decided to have the scope of the thread be broad.

[stewydeadmike]

I honestly can't think of any wiz round that I actually enjoyed playing in. Most are just a sudden end screen popping up after 10 minutes of a wizard being called out or seeing some blue robed dude teleport in and instakill me. It's just such a fundamentally boring mode unless you get to be the wizard and like we already have war ops for quick and fast paced death matches. War ops at least involves most of the crew with it.

So yeah I think disabling wizard would be a net positive imo

[terranaut]

i like hunting wizards

[cacogen]

Leave wizard for the 2b2t server. Seriously, we have fifty servers nowadays. Instead of depriving players who like OP antagonists killing half the crew just make a server for that style of gameplay the way Manuel is for furry roleplay and the unrobust.

Edita: I don't read so I didn't notice that the OP was wanting it removed only on Manuel, which is correct
Editaga: I had to make it read better

[pugie]

Label your thread manuel please.

[NikoTheGuyDude]

I never said it was for manuel explicitely, since I've heard from people that *don't* play manuel that wizard sucks too.

[Farquaar]

I have enjoyed every single wizard round that I have participated in, both as a wizard and as a crewmember.

Wizard rounds have been the source of so many unique and hilarious memories. To remove them would be a mistake that would deprive future players of these moments of pure SS13 chaos.

[NoxVS]

Damn you Niko, I was going to have a much more indepth policy post made for it when I woke up.

Full dynamic is becoming more and more popular, and one day it may replace secret entirely and become the standard for all servers. There is a big issue with this - Wizard is entirely incompatible with any other modes. Wizard is really only capable of one thing, and that is going on murder sprees as a power fantasy for a single person. This would be fine if the wizard was the only one that mattered, but when there are traitors or other antagonists, the rest of the round can easily be ruined by the appearance of a wizard. There is next to nothing a traitor can do to salvage a round where there are ghosts flying around, half the crew are now xenomorphs or syndicate cyborgs, medical can instantly heal every single injury with a magic staff, and someone is capable of talking to deadchat. There is no room for any form of paranoia or subtlety in the wake of most wizards.

While lots of people probably do enjoy it, especially the population of the unrobust servers like Bagil, it is a mode that is harmful to the state of the game. If the servers are all going to eventually be fully dynamic then wizard will have to be removed because of how much it overshadows and diminishes any other form of gameplay. SS13 is so much more in-depth than everyone clicking until horizontal, but if every round wizard touches becomes chaos and a mass murder session then interesting gameplay is quickly abandoned

At the end of the day, the most rewarding thing you get out of a wizard round is given to you when the wizard dies: No longer having to play a wizard round. Kill off the SOULL, remove it from config so coders are free to take it out back behind the shed to put down, and possibly allow for the addition of new roles that can fill a similar niche to the one wizard held.

[RaveRadbury]

At what point do we just acknowledge how wizard is a shitty mode that’s fun for a single player and finally remove it instead of just slowly cutting out portions of it. Remove it from dynamic, go full dynamic, nothing of value is lost.

probably every single maintainer has been saying this for years, we can't kill it because of the config though. make a policy discussion thread or whwatever

[Misdoubtful]

He did it, he posted it.

I'd love to see wiz' stay if added spells came to them. More spells enabling more gimmicks.

The sky is the limit for what wiz' can do and be. More funnies, would be funny. Even if they are barely combat applicable or unbalanced.

Would disabling wizards mean death for wizard development? Would something need to happen for them to return?

At least its not ragin' mages.

There is a big issue with this - Wizard is entirely incompatible with any other modes. Wizard is really only capable of one thing, and that is going on murder sprees as a power fantasy for a single person.

Is this something that could be changed? Is wizard itself the problem? Or are the tools a wizard has the problem? Or something else altogether?

[pugie]

unrobust servers like Bagil

has it really got that bad over there?

[Mothblocks]

I'd love to see wiz' stay if added spells came to them. More spells enabling more gimmicks.

Wizard is something you roll once in a blue moon. Most people don't want to waste their roll on gimmicks when right around the corner is someone with an e-lance ready to go. That's why even though we have plenty of silly spells for them to choose, you still just get murderbone wizards 99 times out of 100.

[Mothblocks]

There is a big issue with this - Wizard is entirely incompatible with any other modes. Wizard is really only capable of one thing, and that is going on murder sprees as a power fantasy for a single person.

Is this something that could be changed? Is wizard itself the problem? Or are the tools a wizard has the problem? Or something else altogether?

Not without an absolutely different antagonist with just the name wizard, which would be dealt with at that time anyway. "Power fantasy for a single person" is the explicit design motive behind wizard. Its incompatibility with other antagonists comes with the ticket.

[cacogen]

I don't see why you'd remove wizard instead of just putting it on a remedial server.

[NoxVS]

There is a big issue with this - Wizard is entirely incompatible with any other modes. Wizard is really only capable of one thing, and that is going on murder sprees as a power fantasy for a single person.

Is this something that could be changed? Is wizard itself the problem? Or are the tools a wizard has the problem? Or something else altogether?

I think it is because wizard was originally a mode that existed entirely on its own, as all modes once did. It wasn't balanced like the other modes because it was already a one person power fantasy, so instead it became bloated with a ton of OP shit over time. I don't see a way to solve this without completely reworking everything about wiz, and at that point you might as well just start from scratch. As the single driving force in a round that is also extremely difficult not to go loud with, all while being inherently opposed to the crew because you don't even come from the station, wizard really has no choice but to murderbone. They can do gimmicks, and they have some interesting spells, but all these gimmicks can usually amount to is just boring and the crew just watches and pretends to be having fun because the alternative is another mass murder wiz. Modes like traitor have plenty of unique things they can do, but wizard is pretty much designed to show up and start killing or being a massive annoyance before being killed.

unrobust servers like Bagil

has it really got that bad over there?

Yeah, no one is robust and instead they just silently beeline for every single "I win" button they have memorized the path to. I saw one guy literally speedrun an away mission where he just ended up crawling under all the enemies to grab the gamer gear

[wesoda25]

I don't agree that wizard is incompatible with dynamic, just a select few spells are. If anything, the best place for wizard is dynamic - the wizard gamemode itself is garbage and should be done away with. On dynamic, the wizard is no longer the central driving force of the round. Other antagonist threats are present and thus the wizard is not depended on to murderbone in order to keep things interesting. This gives wizards a freedom which they never had in the past, and should be welcomed by the roleplay servers.

I think the problems can be easily fixed by code solutions. Make highly disruptive spells disabled on dynamic, and possibly give the wizard different amounts of points depending on how much threat is spent on them. Turn wizard from the center of a round to just a very powerful antagonist. Further introduction of gimmick spells too.

[Misdoubtful]

As the single driving force in a round that is also extremely difficult not to go loud with, all while being inherently opposed to the crew because you don't even come from the station, wizard really has no choice but to murderbone. They can do gimmicks, and they have some interesting spells, but all these gimmicks can usually amount to is just boring and the crew just watches and pretends to be having fun because the alternative is another mass murder wiz.

Aside from my questions to try and provoke some responses from people this is how I really feel, too. You can do a wiz' gimmick, you can do a wi'z gimmick that still involves murdering the entire station even. The weird dynamic still persists.

At least if my death was something funny and absurd it'd be okay. The inherent caution that you might get insta'd really kills a lot of what gimmicks or funny deaths could be.

There are a lot of moving parts to make one big stinky machine.

I don't agree that wizard is incompatible with dynamic, just a select few spells are. If anything, the best place for wizard is dynamic - the wizard gamemode itself is garbage and should be done away with. On dynamic, the wizard is no longer the central driving force of the round. Other antagonist threats are present and thus the wizard is not depended on to murderbone in order to keep things interesting. This gives wizards a freedom which they never had in the past, and should be welcomed by the roleplay servers.

I think the problems can be easily fixed by code solutions. Make highly disruptive spells disabled on dynamic, and possibly give the wizard different amounts of points depending on how much threat is spent on them. Turn wizard from the center of a round to just a very powerful antagonist. Further introduction of gimmick spells too.

Codifying it to be something weaker specifically for dynamic could be an idea. But where does the line between annoying magical trickster that adds to the round and valid salad to just delete get drawn? If I understand right, it being less of a mainline attraction.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

I'd love to see wiz' stay if added spells came to them. More spells enabling more gimmicks.

Wizard is something you roll once in a blue moon. Most people don't want to waste their roll on gimmicks when right around the corner is someone with an e-lance ready to go. That's why even though we have plenty of silly spells for them to choose, you still just get murderbone wizards 99 times out of 100.

that can be applied to any antag, you do a funny gimmick as cult but shitsec arrests you and deconverts for example, its the price of playing multiplayer.

wiz is fun to play as, to observe and to kill, it even works fine on other mrp equivalent of manuel, but if getting fireballed can cause a mental breakdown similar to being randomnamed might as well set the dynamic pick change to 0 in there.

i havent seen any problems in dynamic, i m taking a wiz+cult over a round ends in 5 min from self fireball in secret, it just means an high adrenaline shift for a competent sec team, where u have to choose which threat to deal with first

mini wizs with 5 instead of 10 spell points to spice up dynamic would be nice

[cacogen]

If the issue is Dynamic compatibility then just make an apprentice wizard role that doesn't have access to abilities that ruin the round for other antagonists (e.g. staff of healing, summon events, amulet of ghostspeak). You could spawn more than one at once because of its lower threat and people would be less sweaty with the role because it would be more common. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water because you're lazy or a tyrant or whatever the problem here is.

[Misdoubtful]

If the issue is Dynamic compatibility then just make an apprentice wizard role that doesn't have access to abilities that ruin the round for other antagonists (e.g. staff of healing, summon events, amulet of ghostspeak). You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water because you're lazy or a tyrant or whatever the problem here is.

What about, something like multiple wizard apprentices, but they are robe-less casting crew members with some sane spell selections. Instead of instantly of running around with giant valid me targets on their backs from the get go. Of course give them the option to be loud robe wearing target practice if they choose to too.

This might be a terrible idea, but its hot off the press.

[NoxVS]

I don't agree that wizard is incompatible with dynamic, just a select few spells are. If anything, the best place for wizard is dynamic - the wizard gamemode itself is garbage and should be done away with. On dynamic, the wizard is no longer the central driving force of the round. Other antagonist threats are present and thus the wizard is not depended on to murderbone in order to keep things interesting. This gives wizards a freedom which they never had in the past, and should be welcomed by the roleplay servers.

I think the problems can be easily fixed by code solutions. Make highly disruptive spells disabled on dynamic, and possibly give the wizard different amounts of points depending on how much threat is spent on them. Turn wizard from the center of a round to just a very powerful antagonist. Further introduction of gimmick spells too.

You either have mass murder wiz, annoying wiz, or friendly do nothing wiz. There is no exception. Wizard is given no tools to achieve anything else. Wizard's nature makes it impossible to do anything but these. No room for subtlety or stealth when the entire mode is flashy and loud. No room for paranoia in a game about paranoia. Sure you can keep removing spells from wizard's kit, but at what point do you realize you would have to axe just about everything and what you are left with doesn't even resemble wizard.

Rod Form, Smite, Lesser Summon Guns, Fireball, Mindswap, Staff of Change, Staff of Chaos, Staff of Healing, Scrying Orb, Wand Belt, Soul Stone Belt, Necromantic Stone, Bottle of Blood, Bottle of Tickles, Summon Ghosts, Summon Guns, Summon Magic, Summon Events (Already axed on dynamic?), Curse of Madness.

All of these would have to go for wizard to have any semblance of balance, and at that point wiz has been gutted and has very little left aside from dumb gimmicky stuff.

wiz is fun to play as, to observe and to kill, it even works fine on other mrp equivalent of manuel, but if getting fireballed can cause a mental breakdown similar to being randomnamed might as well set the dynamic pick change to 0 in there.

Wizard absolutely doesn't work on Manuel, for the exact opposite reason you suggested or I have talked about in this thread. Absolutely nothing fucking happens for the entire round.

Because wizard is solely capable of mass murder, mass annoyance, or mass do fuck all, most players on Manuel tend to not go murdery even when given a chance to. This means instead of mass murder, or mass annoyance, wizard rounds on Manuel tend to be mass do fuck all because there is literally not a single thing for a wizard to do. They can do gimmicks but like I said, it is just the crew pretending to be interested because there is nothing else to do.

[wesoda25]

If the issue is Dynamic compatibility then just make an apprentice wizard role that doesn't have access to abilities that ruin the round for other antagonists (e.g. staff of healing, summon events, amulet of ghostspeak). You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water because you're lazy or a tyrant or whatever the problem here is.

What about, something like multiple wizard apprentices, but they are robe-less casting crew members with some sane spell selections. Instead of instantly of running around with giant valid me targets on their backs from the get go. Of course give them the option to be loud robe wearing target practice if they choose to too.

This might be a terrible idea, but its hot off the press.

Wizard federation spies or something like that would be really cool. Just gave me an idea for an event

Rod Form, Smite, Lesser Summon Guns, Fireball, Mindswap, Staff of Change, Staff of Chaos, Staff of Healing, Scrying Orb, Wand Belt, Soul Stone Belt, Necromantic Stone, Bottle of Blood, Bottle of Tickles, Summon Ghosts, Summon Guns, Summon Magic, Summon Events (Already axed on dynamic?), Curse of Madness.

Green: not round disruptive
Orange: debatable
Red: round disruptive

If after getting rid of disruptive content maintainers/headmins don't see the justification for the gamemode anymore then it is what it is, but I think it's worth trying before we just remove wizard entirely.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if its not mass murder, mass annoyance or being fricking friendly then what are you supposed to do? magic tricks with cards in the bar?

[NoxVS]

Rod Form, Smite, Lesser Summon Guns, Fireball, Mindswap, Staff of Change, Staff of Chaos, Staff of Healing, Scrying Orb, Wand Belt, Soul Stone Belt, Necromantic Stone, Bottle of Blood, Bottle of Tickles, Summon Ghosts, Summon Guns, Summon Magic, Summon Events, Curse of Madness.

Green: not round disruptive
Orange: debatable
Red: round disruptive

I was going for round disruptive and extremely OP stuff. Lots of the things you marked in green have similar analogues in other parts of the game, but the issue is wizard can do lots of them infinitely, without any of the usual inconveniences, and they recharge on their own. A chemist only has so many explosives, medical can swap minds with surgery and a partner but it is tedious, engineers can RCD holes similar to rod form but it takes time and ammo. I included wand belt just because it holds wand forms of a lot of staffs, including ones on this list, or wand forms of spells on this list. Necromantic stone is an instant, irreversible conversion of a crewmember to your side. Never runs out, admittedly does have a capacity, but you can keep replacing thralls as they die.

if its not mass murder, mass annoyance or being fricking friendly then what are you supposed to do? magic tricks with cards in the bar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

[Tlaltecuhtli]

i dont get what you are trying to say, is wiz too impactfull for the round?
everything except the 2 staffs and summon ghosts are already not included in dynamic gamemode, staff of change is funny and gives players that dont get many chances a way to play as one of the rare mobs and borgs, if sec doesnt want the mess they can take it and put in evidence room, just like u take away aa from tiders and kill annoying xenos without breaking any rule.
heal staff just means that antags are gonna do the old mmo strat of kill the healer first, if antag gets it he can try team up with other evil doers or even revive the damn wizard, these items are like 5% of being picked in the 10% chance of round having a wiz, crew having xenobio slime shit is more common.
ghost courts are also fun and never cease to give when people get killed because they have 10 ghosts orbiting him.

[Irad]

I like wizard, because its flashy, its hectic and you get owned, and sometimes you get to own a wizard, instead of some sneaky boring traitor that steals two things and kills someone in maint and then hides in plain sight for rest of shift.


Yeah just get good, or accept that you sometimes die, your pet project gets fucked or that you have to adapt to the situation. For example, if there is a healer staff reviving people, there is this secret strip+locker or space corpse strategy, but that might be unheard of for you.

I dont see how its incompitable with other antags in every way - every antag benefits from more chaos, except that someone might steal your objective first. the more people that die, the easier you get away with murder. Sure, you might get fireballed out of nowhere, but perhaps just maybe you should be a tad careful if there is a wiz about (You tend to know this just about instantly)

Yeah, no one is robust and instead they just silently beeline for every single "I win" button they have memorized the path to. I saw one guy literally speedrun an away mission where he just ended up crawling under all the enemies to grab the gamer gear

Explain what you think "robust" is, and how its not being prepared+speedrunning gamer gear.

[Mothblocks]

summon ghosts is the best part of wizard and if we're going to be removing it i want some ability that is in the same vein of it (thats not the spirit blade)

[Gamarr]

Remove some of the more lethal spells of wizard. Now merge it with the demon-pact stuff whatever from before, whether mechanical or in theme.
The wizard is there to do whatever he wants. It would be nice if he had spells/boons to give people just because he feels like it. It doesn't have to be 'deals' and he doesn't have to get anything in return. Basically the gun wizard meme. What happens, happens, including whether or not the wizard lives or dies.

So I guess I'm saying just remove the high lethality direct threat they pose and don't make them a 'mode' for the round. The equivalent of an immovable rod; it just Happens to the station and the best they can do is ride however it turns out and the round goes on. More spells like making an entire department turn into a blizzard, less ones that just kill you when he stands beside you.

summon ghosts is the best part of wizard and if we're going to be removing it i want some ability that is in the same vein of it (thats not the spirit blade)

Also yeah, the strangeness of those random events he can do like summon ghosts should stay. It is one of the highlights of the wizard mode, too.

[NoxVS]

i dont get what you are trying to say, is wiz too impactfull for the round?
everything except the 2 staffs and summon ghosts are already not included in dynamic gamemode, staff of change is funny and gives players that dont get many chances a way to play as one of the rare mobs and borgs, if sec doesnt want the mess they can take it and put in evidence room, just like u take away aa from tiders and kill annoying xenos without breaking any rule.
heal staff just means that antags are gonna do the old mmo strat of kill the healer first, if antag gets it he can try team up with other evil doers or even revive the damn wizard, these items are like 5% of being picked in the 10% chance of round having a wiz, crew having xenobio slime shit is more common.
ghost courts are also fun and never cease to give when people get killed because they have 10 ghosts orbiting him.

Everything I listed is still in dynamic as far as I am aware, aside from summon events. The issue with staff of change is how quickly any semblance of normalcy is gone forever when every other crewmember is either moving at meth speeds with the ability to spam tackle stuns, or now has syndicate comms and a free gun.

Healing staff entirely invalidates an entire department. My issue with wizard is how it forces you to ignore massive parts of the in-depth game that has been built up over the years. Such as the entire medical system.

Most of this stuff got axed from xenobio. It used to exist, doesn't anymore because people realized ages ago how disruptive it was to the state of the game.

The issue isn't innocent players dying from ghost court, its that you can no longer play any form of antagonist as anything except senseless murder because anything you do can result in a ghost pointing security to you.

summon ghosts is the best part of wizard and if we're going to be removing it i want some ability that is in the same vein of it (thats not the spirit blade)

wyci

As long as it wasn't station wide and easy to communicate, ghosts could be fine. The problem I have with it in its current form is now suddenly every one has semi ghost metacomms. Kill a guy? He can now go to sec and point them to you. Trying to hide or use a disguise? You have a massive ring of ghosts and stick out like a sore thumb. A possible replacement or rework could be where ghosts are invisible still, but gain some ability to manipulate the world. Turning on lights, moving things, just normal haunted stuff.

Explain what you think "robust" is, and how its not being prepared+speedrunning gamer gear.

Bagil was a mistake.

[cacogen]

You either have mass murder wiz, annoying wiz, or friendly do nothing wiz.

As opposed to what? You realise this is a game where the antagonists have fun at the expense of other players and everyone gets a chance to be antagonist some of the time? What antagonist doesn't exist to make your round worse, other than the ones that can convert?

if its not mass murder, mass annoyance or being fricking friendly then what are you supposed to do? magic tricks with cards in the bar?

What about, something like multiple wizard apprentices, but they are robe-less casting crew members with some sane spell selections. Instead of instantly of running around with giant valid me targets on their backs from the get go. Of course give them the option to be loud robe wearing target practice if they choose to too.

This might be a terrible idea, but its hot off the press.

I like this idea. Also the design committee has convened. This is now a marketplace of ideas. If we're afraid to make suggestions because of the 4chan culture of pathological insecurity and bullying then how will any agreement or conclusion be reached? May as well just try to shove a PR down people's throats you and your Discord friends came up with or however design usually works here.

Rod Form, Smite, Lesser Summon Guns, Fireball, Mindswap, Staff of Change, Staff of Chaos, Staff of Healing, Scrying Orb, Wand Belt, Soul Stone Belt, Necromantic Stone, Bottle of Blood, Bottle of Tickles, Summon Ghosts, Summon Guns, Summon Magic, Summon Events (Already axed on dynamic?), Curse of Madness.

Green: not round disruptive
Orange: debatable
Red: round disruptive

If after getting rid of disruptive content maintainers/headmins don't see the justification for the gamemode anymore then it is what it is, but I think it's worth trying before we just remove wizard entirely.

Exactly. Not to mention the possibility of adding more spells for Dynamic.

[NoxVS]

You realise this is a game where the antagonists have fun at the expense of other players and everyone gets a chance to be antagonist some of the time? What antagonist doesn't exist to make your round worse, other than the ones that can convert?

Pretty much all the non wizard ones? Antagonists add fun into the game with the interactions they result in. Traitor can be fun for everyone involved.

But thank you for agreeing with me that wizards are only fun for the wizard. That's twice now that horseshoe theory has been proven to be true.

An antagonist that makes the game less enjoyable for everyone but the antag should be removed from the game. There are antagonists that make the game fun for everyone, and the server is much better off focusing on those types of antagonists.

[cacogen]

Everything I listed is still in dynamic as far as I am aware, aside from summon events. The issue with staff of change is how quickly any semblance of normalcy is gone forever when every other crewmember is either moving at meth speeds with the ability to spam tackle stuns, or now has syndicate comms and a free gun.

Healing staff entirely invalidates an entire department. My issue with wizard is how it forces you to ignore massive parts of the in-depth game that has been built up over the years. Such as the entire medical system.

Most of this stuff got axed from xenobio. It used to exist, doesn't anymore because people realized ages ago how disruptive it was to the state of the game.

The issue isn't innocent players dying from ghost court, its that you can no longer play any form of antagonist as anything except senseless murder because anything you do can result in a ghost pointing security to you.

These are valid issues but I don't know why you'd jump to removing wizard which was never designed with Dynamic in mind instead of just altering the role for Dynamic.

But thank you for agreeing with me that wizards are only fun for the wizard. That's twice now that horseshoe theory has been proven to be true.

I'm tired of formatting quotes but Tlal described how wizard is fun for the crew above and Irad how traitor incentivises quietly completing one's objectives, leaving your victim's body in maint never to be discovered and returning to work.

[NoxVS]

Everything I listed is still in dynamic as far as I am aware, aside from summon events. The issue with staff of change is how quickly any semblance of normalcy is gone forever when every other crewmember is either moving at meth speeds with the ability to spam tackle stuns, or now has syndicate comms and a free gun.

Healing staff entirely invalidates an entire department. My issue with wizard is how it forces you to ignore massive parts of the in-depth game that has been built up over the years. Such as the entire medical system.

Most of this stuff got axed from xenobio. It used to exist, doesn't anymore because people realized ages ago how disruptive it was to the state of the game.

The issue isn't innocent players dying from ghost court, its that you can no longer play any form of antagonist as anything except senseless murder because anything you do can result in a ghost pointing security to you.

These are valid issues but I don't know why you'd jump to removing wizard which was never designed with Dynamic in mind instead of just altering the role for Dynamic.

Because I don't know how to code, nor do I know of any possible solutions to fix it. So far no one has made any PRs to fix any of the issues I see with the mode, and there is no way for me to force someone to fix them, so altering the role is not a possible solution for me to achieve.

What is a possible solution for me to achieve is to open a policy thread on the issue (if Niko hadn't beat me to it) and then discuss the issues in the hopes that the headmins agree and remove the mode from rotation, at which point the maintainers are free to remove it from the code if they wish to get rid of it (which, according to comments from one maintainer, they do) as it is no longer a config issue.

At any step along this solution of mine, someone is free to see the issues posed and decide to try and fix them. Turns out people are much more willing to make PRs to fix something once it gets put on the chopping block. Best case scenario, wizard is removed or someone fixes the issues. Worst case scenario, people see the issues and are (slightly) more likely to try and fix them. Both outcomes are positive, even if one likely results in no changes, so there is no reason for me not to argue for the removal of wizard.

[oranges]

Everything I listed is still in dynamic as far as I am aware, aside from summon events. The issue with staff of change is how quickly any semblance of normalcy is gone forever when every other crewmember is either moving at meth speeds with the ability to spam tackle stuns, or now has syndicate comms and a free gun.

Healing staff entirely invalidates an entire department. My issue with wizard is how it forces you to ignore massive parts of the in-depth game that has been built up over the years. Such as the entire medical system.

Most of this stuff got axed from xenobio. It used to exist, doesn't anymore because people realized ages ago how disruptive it was to the state of the game.

The issue isn't innocent players dying from ghost court, its that you can no longer play any form of antagonist as anything except senseless murder because anything you do can result in a ghost pointing security to you.

These are valid issues but I don't know why you'd jump to removing wizard which was never designed with Dynamic in mind instead of just altering the role for Dynamic.

Because I don't know how to code, nor do I know of any possible solutions to fix it. So far no one has made any PRs to fix any of the issues I see with the mode, and there is no way for me to force someone to fix them, so altering the role is not a possible solution for me to achieve.

just ignore anyone making this argument, they are the kind of people who only show up in the removal PR to complain about how nobody has tried to fix it, despite the obvious lack of effort on their or anyone elses part.

[Irad]

You realise this is a game where the antagonists have fun at the expense of other players and everyone gets a chance to be antagonist some of the time? What antagonist doesn't exist to make your round worse, other than the ones that can convert?

Pretty much all the non wizard ones? Antagonists add fun into the game with the interactions they result in. Traitor can be fun for everyone involved.

But thank you for agreeing with me that wizards are only fun for the wizard. That's twice now that horseshoe theory has been proven to be true.

An antagonist that makes the game less enjoyable for everyone but the antag should be removed from the game. There are antagonists that make the game fun for everyone, and the server is much better off focusing on those types of antagonists.

I disagree. Traitor is about equal fun, if not less so for the average crewmember. most traitors i never interact with but wizard I'm almost always forced to do so with. I have no issues with dying, hell, i play AI main, and there is a game mode (cult) that has a 100% kill with 0 defense, even if you know its coming from a mile away unless you can get a borg (which you do not always have.) to move you, and even then, they can always find you with spirit realm.

If you are complaining about wizard instakill, then you might as well complain about a greytide tot with revolver that walks up, talkbaits you and shoots you twice.

I can't speak for medbay being invalidated by staff of healing, because i fucking hate medbay and never intend to spend more time than the minimum possible there. If i could, i would remove medbay every round. bring back sleepers so anyone can do that pointless snoozejob, and keep no one but paramedics.

I think you have some ided thoughts here. If you die, you at least fought or had some struggle. rather that than sit and do my job for a shift.

Remove some of the more lethal spells of wizard. Now merge it with the demon-pact stuff whatever from before, whether mechanical or in theme.
The wizard is there to do whatever he wants. It would be nice if he had spells/boons to give people just because he feels like it. It doesn't have to be 'deals' and he doesn't have to get anything in return. Basically the gun wizard meme. What happens, happens, including whether or not the wizard lives or dies.

So I guess I'm saying just remove the high lethality direct threat they pose and don't make them a 'mode' for the round. The equivalent of an immovable rod; it just Happens to the station and the best they can do is ride however it turns out and the round goes on. More spells like making an entire department turn into a blizzard, less ones that just kill you when he stands beside you.

This is pretty cool

summon ghosts is the best part of wizard and if we're going to be removing it i want some ability that is in the same vein of it (thats not the spirit blade)
Also yeah, the strangeness of those random events he can do like summon ghosts should stay. It is one of the highlights of the wizard mode, too.

this too.

Finally, wiz brings some of these elements every round. They are not some fireball+staff of healing+ghosts+slaughter demon+summon guns every shift.

[Mothblocks]

I can't speak for medbay being invalidated by staff of healing, because i fucking hate medbay and never intend to spend more time than the minimum possible there. If i could, i would remove medbay every round. bring back sleepers so anyone can do that pointless snoozejob, and keep no one but paramedics.

because you're an arcade player whos opinions can be disregarded

[Irad]

I can't speak for medbay being invalidated by staff of healing, because i fucking hate medbay and never intend to spend more time than the minimum possible there. If i could, i would remove medbay every round. bring back sleepers so anyone can do that pointless snoozejob, and keep no one but paramedics.

because you're an arcade player whos opinions can be disregarded

I just don't like doing or taking part in surgery. But sure, let me call you a manuel HRP cringe or whatever you want to hear.

[saprasam]

getting good is still an option
one decent guy with a nullrod can kill a wizard with minimal effort
holymelons make a wizard a complete joke
you can elance them if you manage to get into melee range
anyways this policy is probably gonna go nowhere

[NikoTheGuyDude]

getting good is still an option
one decent guy with a nullrod can kill a wizard with minimal effort
holymelons make a wizard a complete joke
you can elance them if you manage to get into melee range
anyways this policy is probably gonna go nowhere

I wasnt really expecting anything when I made this thread, but tbh I only really make these threads so people actually get the motivation to present their arguments to headmins and the community at large even if it wont result in anything

its important people get their voice heard

[nianjiilical]

i do sort of like the idea of having minor and major wizards, minor wizards being less threat but not getting the more disruptive spells

would it be better if certain wizard spells were easier to undo? just to throw out some ideas

-summon ghosts, summon events and curse of madness end when the wizard dies
-guns summoned by summon guns cant be fired if the wizard dies
-summon magic spells either cant be used if the wiz dies or can only pull non-disruptive spells
-rework staff of change so that being polymorphed doesn't drop your inventory and add some way to un-polymorph people (spray them with holy water?)
-make artefacts like staff of change, staff of healing and mjolnir weaker if used by nonwizards
-turn scrying orb into a passive spell, or make it so nonwizards can see but not hear ghosts with it
-replace soulstone belt and necromantic stone with equivalents that dont destroy the body/equipment
-balance the demons on their own if they're a problem

i mean id be fine with losing the murderbone/disruptive spells in exchange for more defensive/gimmick tools, gimmick wizard is more fun than murderbone anyway

[Tlaltecuhtli]

give chaplain sect powers to undo polymorph changes and curse of madness?
staffs can just have a limed shot amount if used by not magicians
necro stone doesnt even round remove, if a crew loyal hits you with it after you die again are you lose antag and you also get free claymore
soulstones are just rule 10, you got antag and died, go breathe some fresh air outside for 20 min until round ends or roll for midround blobs

[Vekter]

Replace it with something else, then.

[Mothblocks]

Replace it with something else, then.

We did, we have several other antags that are better, tons of new antagonist items, bla bla bla.

We shouldn't be expected to continue to serve features that were added by someone ages ago with the main motive of "it's cool".

[Cobby]

Wizard is shit, the only game mode where you have to balance 1v20 and 1v70+ with 0 scaling in between, and is a distinct opposite of a good antagonist by the metric of it is designed to make the game fun for that 1 person.

[cacogen]

Yeah but Dynamic could give you the ability to spawn wizard roles in differing strengths and amounts based on things like what and how many other antagonists and server population

Replace it with something else, then.

We did, we have several other antags that are better, tons of new antagonist items, bla bla bla.

We shouldn't be expected to continue to serve features that were added by someone ages ago with the main motive of "it's cool".

It really is easier for you to remove things while ignoring all the solutions people provide to improve them isn't it

[stewydeadmike]

is there anything unique (outside theming ofc) that wizard brings to the table? Is there like a fundamental experience of wizard that isn't found in other antags?

The feeling of overcoming the odds against a powerful enemy/dangerous situation, (which in my experience often aren't even in the wizard's favor if they're not all that robust) is better served by the conversion modes when they work and aren't competing for #1 on the speedrunning charts, or particularly robust traitors who just felt like raising some hell.

and for fast paced balls to the wall action I feel nukies does a better job with that while offering more tactical freedom to both sides of the equation.

The only other thing I can think of is the "fly around and be annoying in various degrees" which I don't know, we kind of already have clowns for that.

[cacogen]

I was premature in my release

[Cobby]

Yeah but Dynamic could give you the ability to spawn wizard roles in differing strengths and amounts based on things like what and how many other antagonists and server population

It could, but it currently doesn't.

[cacogen]

is there anything unique (outside theming ofc) that wizard brings to the table? Is there like a fundamental experience of wizard that isn't found in other antags?

Yes, spells.

This is becoming the feature removal equivalent of "stop liking what I don't like". Conservationists are saying if X is the problem why not do Y and still people are writing think pieces because ? Ɱป?Ṯ ℞ÊⱮ⚬⚬V. I feel like a lot of the nerds who play here need to feel powerful as part of the ????? ??????? outlined in the Ted K think piece IᑎᗪᑌᔕTᖇIᗩᒪ ᔕOᑕIETY ᗩᑎᗪ ITᔕ ᖴᑌTᑌᖇE.

Yeah but Dynamic could give you the ability to spawn wizard roles in differing strengths and amounts based on things like what and how many other antagonists and server population

It could, but it currently doesn't.

Yeah, well, I can't code.

[Cobby]

I'm happy to keep wizard alive if you want to make it scale and address the fun for 1, but the onus is on someone who wants to maintain it to the standards players (in terms of enabling/disabling config) and maintainers (in terms of getting the changes in prod in the first place) want.

If no one wants to do that we are left with "deal with it" and remove