/tg/Station 13

This was specifically brought on by https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2856, but is not meant to be a direct discussion on it. It's a discussion on the general policy.

Let me start with the rules from the wiki.

Don’t metagame. Do not ever use information, acquired out of character or through patterns or events your character would not be able to know, in game.

Yep, makes sense. But what isn't addressed is what you can talk about through OOC and out of band means. I've been trying to figure out where the line is drawn. The admins seem to act like this is made very clear, but I think publicly available policy is not on this very particular point. Can you talk about, say, the weather over Skype? Could you text a player in the same game and ask if they want to see a movie later? How about asking if this particular server requires you to take off a mask to eat? Or how to use a fire extinguisher?

I believe it's those questions causing the confusion in the thread I mentioned. I can see this going one of two ways.

1. All other communication is not allowed.

But in this case, the policy hasn't been made clear. It also has other implications. It would mean that we should probably disable OOC and ban anyone who's on the same IP address as another player logged into a server.

2. Only IC information is not allowed.

This has always been my interpretation. You can't say anything about current events, people, or generally the state of the current round. This is generally how OOC seems to be enforced, and admins are forgiving on this issue (15 min bans vs. perma for metacommunication, regardless of the circumstances).

There may be other opinions I'm not aware of, and I want to hear yours.

As i understand it, you are not allowed to mention anything regarding the events of the current round. Training new players is fine, so long as you run it by admins first, but it depends on the admin. They could decline your request to teach your friends. Also remember that the admins deal with metacomms by "guilty until proven innocent". They have nothing but the defendants word and server logs to go by. So for example, if 3 players who are confirmed to be using metacommunication start breaking into an Armory together, from an outside observer point of view it could be seen as a red flag. Teaching new players doesnt involve breaking into one of the more dangerous areas of the station.

Acting favorably towards your friends in-game is also not allowed. Like running to grab their dead body, or giving them stuff you wouldnt normally give to random players.

Its a very serious offense and one that the admins have very little tolerance for. Even if you are "training" your friends, you are still toeing a very fine line.

This is just my views on it. Im not an admin or anything, so do not take my post as any kind of official policy or law.

That is an interesting example, but not what happened in the aforementioned thread. But I don't want to rehash all that here. I sent a PM instead.

The admins could decline a request, but one would hope that it would happen immediately, and not three rounds later. The reality of "guilty until proven innocent" should probably be reflected in rules on the wiki then, suggesting that players never play on the same IP address or anything that could be construed as suspicious. Otherwise, it's basically ex post facto punishment.

I wish there were a clearer way to show new players how to play. This game is awesome, but it has a steep learning curve. If "metacommunicating" involves telling other players basic "how do I drag something" answers, then we should have a clear policy there.

Really you should link them the wiki. There is a beginners guide there for a reason.
Also everytime someone who's been banned for metacomms has demanded reasoning, the admins have pulled out A LOT of evidene, usually over a fairly significant time period to back it up.

The wiki is okay, but only gets you so far. Some uses of the click and drag mechanic aren't well documented, for example.

For the evidence in the current case, I think it has been lacking. Most of the evidence seems to be outrage over a couple people in the armory, which didn't require any coordination to get in (two lawyers hanging out in brig, one calls out to a borg to open armory, other one follows).

If it has anything to do with the current round, at all.

DO NOT MENTION IN IT OOC, OR THROUGH ANY EXTERNAL MEANS.

If you have to tell your friend "Hey, come help me over in botany!" or "There's a suspicious guy over near engineering."
Tell them in-character using the in game chat.
Too far away from them? TOO BAD. PDA them or use the radio.
Comms down? TOO BAD. Go find them.
Dead and can't speak? TOO BAD. Go play something else.
Friend mysteriously finds your dead body on the other side of the station and drags it back for cloning? You better believe this looks bad.

Understand that this is a role-playing game, and i'm not talking about mana bars and level ups, this is in the most literal sense designed to be a role-playing game.

As for playing on the same IP, we have several regular players who play on the same IP and they are capable of role-playing out their interactions between characters every round. That is not a defining feature of the rule, but it does raise a couple flags for investigation.

Echoing everything Saegrimr says here.

With the addition that we'd like you to let the admins know if you do plan on playing with friends, so we don't ban you out of a misunderstanding if we do happen to just stumble upon you two.

Saegrimr, Ikarrrus, while I appreciate your attention, that's not quite addressing what I'm asking. I never disputed that IC information should not be shared through any means. I'm asking what IS permissible.

As for the specific case, as I've stated before, I found the body because someone else (the AI?) mentioned seeing it over radio, and I did adminhelp before playing to let the admins know, TWO rounds prior.

Sorry, I was speaking generally.

I thought saeg's response would have answered your question, though. Just don't talk about anything that is happening in game. And if you do learn something IC using OOC knowledge, that is metagaming, so don't do it.

If you want to ask certain questions like how to do various things, you can ask in OOC or use adminhelp. Or just simply ask IC.

You can talk about whatever you want OOC as long as it's not about what's going on in game at that moment in time.

I'm confused how this could be interpreted any other way. Keep IC and OOC separate.

Quey wrote:I never disputed that IC information should not be shared through any means. I'm asking what IS permissible.

Absolutely nothing.

Ikarrus wrote:No OOC communication as well.

So again, nothing.

The question "What is permissible" in the context of:
IC communication: Anything that doesn't break character / netspeak / metagaming
OOC communication: Nothing.

I always thought it was

IC: IC stuff
OOC: non-game related stuff or vague game-related questions (how do I drag body, can a zippo in your pocket light plasma, etc - no 'help x is killing me' or 'how do I parasting')
ahelp: game-related stuff that would spoil other people's rounds (e.g 'help I'm first time malf what do' or 'x is griffing me is it valid')
IRL/skype etc: nope don't even mention spessmens

Yeah pretty much.
OOC is not for IC, and IC in not for OOC. And IC is definitely not for things beyond the game client.

Ikarrus wrote:I'm confused how this could be interpreted any other way. Keep IC and OOC separate.

Right, I wasn't asking about that. I was asking what is permitted in OOC, which led to the confusing response below...

Saegrimr wrote:

Quey wrote:I never disputed that IC information should not be shared through any means. I'm asking what IS permissible.

Absolutely nothing.

So NOTHING is permissible in OOC chat? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? So why even have OOC?

Saegrimr wrote:

Ikarrus wrote:No OOC communication as well.

So again, nothing.

The question "What is permissible" in the context of:
IC communication: Anything that doesn't break character / netspeak / metagaming
OOC communication: Nothing.

So we've already established we're not posting IC information in OOC. I don't know why we have to keep repeating it when I keep saying that's not the question. This again seems to indicate that NOTHING said in OOC is permissible. NOTHING. Can't say "Hi", can't say "Other server's too high pop so I came here", can't say ANYTHING.

But that isn't how OOC is enforced.

So what are the rules REALLY? Saegrimr, you keep saying that NOTHING is allowed in OOC, but that's clearly not the case. Otherwise admins should be banning anyone who ever says anything in OOC, and they aren't. Can you see why I'm confused by your statements?

But then you go on to say that "non-game related stuff or vague game-related questions" is "Yeah pretty much" okay. Which is it? Nothing, or "non-game related stuff or vague game-related questions", which has been my assertion all along?

I think he means nothing that could even be interpreted as a hint to in-game events should be metioned in OOC. Absolute zero in this regard.

Any other subject is permitted.

Does this help clarify things for you?

Heres a better guide line: if you can't say it in OOC chat, you can't say it over skype/irc/steam/shouting across the room/etc.

If you want to train your friend on how to do things, don't play that round and sit next to him.

If they are somebody you know over the internet and you want to show them I guess you could ghost over them PROVIDED you tell them nothing about the round state/events that they couldn't know from what they can see. (This isn't actually allowed, so i'd wait on a headmin ruling but if you tell them nothing they aren't suppose to know, its not exactly something we could ever know happened. )

Quey wrote:So what are the rules REALLY? Saegrimr, you keep saying that NOTHING is allowed in OOC, but that's clearly not the case. Otherwise admins should be banning anyone who ever says anything in OOC, and they aren't. Can you see why I'm confused by your statements?

But then you go on to say that "non-game related stuff or vague game-related questions" is "Yeah pretty much" okay. Which is it? Nothing, or "non-game related stuff or vague game-related questions", which has been my assertion all along?

I was really hoping you'd be able to piece together the separation between IC and OOC, I didn't realize you'd need your hand held this much about it.

So your question is literally "What can I say in OOC that has nothing to do with the current game?"
Because you answered your own question, and its been answered multiple times in multiple threads. The logical disconnect here is purely yours.

Saegrimr, I thought I made it ABUNDANTLY clear what I am and am not asking about in this thread, yet you keep answering a question I'm not asking. This was a problem in the previous thread as well which made is sound awfully like ANY communication is disallowed while logged into a SS13 server. But it looks like we're clear now.
Now it looks like you seem to agree with my interpretation. Then would come the logical follow up about new players, which MrStonedOne has addressed with his two cents nicely.