For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

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Adam Klein
 
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For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Adam Klein » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:58 am #593739

Okay, lukewarm take time. Free golems are used as a free respawn to come back to the station, and mass grief and or kill your killer. Maybe I'm just bitter, but I have never once had a shift benefit from there being free golems just swarming the place and shitting everything up.

What I propose here is either a total removal of free golems, or a strict policy of golems staying away from the station. Either way is acceptable, but something has to be done about this.
Huh, This is interesting.



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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby oranges » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:06 am #593740

I agree

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:09 am #593741

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=19007

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21615&p=476146

I don't see golem armies mass BOH bombing the station anymore so I couldn't care less. Removing their teleporter is still a good idea. Mostly administrative issue.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:23 am #593742

Removal of free golems is a code change, I'm pretty sure. One you're able to make :)
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:43 am #593746

Jaredfogle wrote:Removal of free golems is a code change, I'm pretty sure. One you're able to make :)

nope

edit at request of sir jared: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/42757
Last edited by wesoda25 on Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:45 am #593747

If this is genuinely an issue more than a handful of rounds (I don't think so) then they should just be valid on the station (assuming they aren't already).
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Adam Klein » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:49 am #593749

Jaredfogle wrote:Removal of free golems is a code change, I'm pretty sure. One you're able to make :)


I mean, this is a policy issue first and foremost, Free golems are used as a respawn to go valid all the salad on the station. Ideally, this could be solved with a policy change. something like, "You must protect the ship of the liberator, do not abandon it for the station."
Huh, This is interesting.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Adam Klein » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:51 am #593750

cacogen wrote:If this is genuinely an issue more than a handful of rounds (I don't think so) then they should just be valid on the station (assuming they aren't already).


I would rather not have golems coming on the station in order to start a TDM. A blanket "No free golems on the station" ban would be more effective. I mean, why should golems come on the station, what reason do they have for it?
Huh, This is interesting.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:55 am #593752

I think if they're valid it means they can't fight back and other people can't protect them
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Adam Klein » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:35 am #593762

cacogen wrote:I think if they're valid it means they can't fight back and other people can't protect them


Either way, we need to make it clearer that Golems do not need to go to the station, they aren't from the station, and they need to stay off the station. Getting killed doesn't mean anything when you can really make nearly infinite bodies to use as free respawns. If I wasn't too stupid to know how to code, I would make it so free golems take passive damage from being off the lavaland Z level.
Huh, This is interesting.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Flatulent » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:07 am #593764

You might as well nuke every ghost role at this point
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Armhulen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:19 am #593768

Flatulent wrote:You might as well nuke every ghost role at this point

I think it's safe to say that regardless of my thoughts on this golem is easily the most problematic ghost role in terms of going onstation
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Farquaar » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:47 am #593770

Just ban them from going to the station if it's that much of a problem. They're harmless otherwise.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Armhulen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:58 am #593771

Yeah headmins have control over special flavor text why not
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:28 am #593793

if they are putting 0 effort into going for their killer then just ahelp it u baby

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:41 am #593796

Policy in code should be in the config if it isn't already. I don't know if the headmins have access to that, though. But banning golems from going on the station would be extremely unfun.

If unauthorised personnel are coming on board with unknown intentions that's security's job to deal with. Security tends to just leave them to it though, presumably to be nice to these players and because anything bad they might do will be against the rules.

If security can't handle golems respawning there should just be some sort of cooldown. Probably beginning on spawn rather than on death. Golems suicide to change shell.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby zxaber » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:57 am #593798

We could limit players to a single golem body per round. Similar code is in place for Ash Lizards.

If we do want to make golems never reach the station, a code solution is better than flufftext. Perhaps make free golems take a constant damage over time when on any space Z level and call it "Low Radiation Resistance" or something?
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:08 am #593803

We already have the stationloving/stationstuck/whatever it is for the skeleton role.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:09 am #593804

I hate what they did to ash walkers. Eggs but no one spawning because everybody interested has died already.

Making free golems take damage off z-level (or just making it impossible to leave) is unfun. The penalty ideally would only affect players who misbehaved. Security should be able to deal with free golems as they see fit and the game should prevent players abusing respawns. If people metagrudge their killer that's an administrative issue.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby oranges » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:49 am #593820

cacogen - gun cargo is a code problem that should be solved by making crates unbreakable
also cacogen - free golems are an admin problem you should not use code to solve it.

Come on man, at least have a consistent position

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Farquaar » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:33 pm #593901

99% of the time, free golems on the station are boring and lame- no more interesting than a free respawn. Build an autism project on lavaland. Heck, invite miners or crew to visit your weird golem colony. The role has a purpose, and beelining for the station does not fall in line with that purpose.

"But all the cool stuff is on the station!"
You died. Your time as a crewmember is over. Either do what lavaland free golems do, or wait until a different ghost role is available.

"But the crew wronged us and we want to retaliate!"
Smash up the mining base. Kill miners who wander lavaland. Set up traps or lure mobs to the shuttle docking zone. Free golems have plenty of options that don't involve self-antag grief on the station.

"But autism projects aren't fun for me!"
Then don't pick the autism project ghost role. It's not meant to be a respawn. Even if you can't find a way to enjoy it, there are people who can.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:45 pm #593919

Killing their access to the station with whatever the skeleton has sounds like the best path to me, especially if that's what headmins want. I have a friend who learned a lot about the game at their own pace through free golems, so I'm a bit sentimental about their existence.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Vekter » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:28 am #593965

This is an administration issue and has nothing to do with actually removing them - if someone breaks the rules we punish them for it. Golems coming to the station and griefing is breaking the rules. Report it when it happens.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby JusticeGoat » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:08 am #593972

I would just ahelp if golems are gunning to the station they are not supposed to do this.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby NikoTheGuyDude » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 am #593981

I've already been told by a few admins that free golems aren't allowed to go on station with little reason; if they aren't talking out of their ass, why not just add this as a redtext and save both players and admins many a headache?

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Armhulen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:18 am #593983

>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Vekter » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:35 am #593985

Armhulen wrote:>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ


Let me clarify - whether or not free golems are in the codebase is a coder issue. Whether or not we enforce that they aren't allowed on the station is an admin issue.

The only thing I can think of would be to make free golems spawn as some kind of snowflake golem so we can tell between station and free golems, should make it easier to find out when people are pulling shit like this.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Flatulent » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:36 am #593986

cant coders and admins live in peace so they can inflict maximum suffering(read: remove shit they both dont like) on the server?
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Armhulen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:39 am #593990

Vekter wrote:
Armhulen wrote:>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ


Let me clarify - whether or not free golems are in the codebase is a coder issue. Whether or not we enforce that they aren't allowed on the station is an admin issue.

The only thing I can think of would be to make free golems spawn as some kind of snowflake golem so we can tell between station and free golems, should make it easier to find out when people are pulling shit like this.

I wish this was actually how it was, but oranges blocked removing golems (thus making your aforementioned coder solution administrative) and headmins blocked changes on administrative solutions to golems going onstation (thus making your aforementioned administrative solution a coding issue)
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:55 am #594014

If people are getting in trouble for going on the station (hasn't happened to me, but I've only done it a couple of times, haven't done it recently and haven't done it to grief) then as other people have suggested it should just have the red flavour text tell them not to. Administration via code. Not ideal. And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.

Ideally the game would disincentivise them from going on the station. I hate making them take damage though. A better idea is if security get rewarded somehow for capturing them.

oranges wrote:cacogen - gun cargo is a code problem that should be solved by making crates unbreakable
also cacogen - free golems are an admin problem you should not use code to solve it.

Come on man, at least have a consistent position

I didn't say either of those things. Either steelman like someone intellectually honest or come up with more convincing strawmen.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:16 pm #594051

how about this: if oranges doesn't block me on it (if he interprets this as an admin issue, or an issue the headmins must agree on), I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station. does that answer your concern arm

And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.


all correctly coded policy (get_policy()) is configurable through policy.json
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Armhulen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:21 pm #594063

Jaredfogle wrote:how about this: if oranges doesn't block me on it (if he interprets this as an admin issue, or an issue the headmins must agree on), I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station. does that answer your concern arm

And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.


all correctly coded policy (get_policy()) is configurable through policy.json

yea because that was my original idea so i'm glad you went with it
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby ShibaInuLord » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:28 pm #594066

i miss when free golems were when golems built a town in lavaland
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:19 pm #594102

Armhulen wrote:
Jaredfogle wrote:how about this: if oranges doesn't block me on it (if he interprets this as an admin issue, or an issue the headmins must agree on), I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station. does that answer your concern arm

And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.


all correctly coded policy (get_policy()) is configurable through policy.json

yea because that was my original idea so i'm glad you went with it

okay get to codin
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:44 pm #594107

Jaredfogle wrote:I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station

This sucks and I'm glad I wasted my time trying to explain my point of view in this thread. Lazy, artificially limiting, uses precedent as a justification even though that's illogical. If respawns are being exploited to quickly return to the station, use a cooldown. If metaknowledge is being abused, that's an admin issue. If golems should be encouraged to stay on Lavaland, tell security players it's part of their job to arrest trespassers on the station. Golems shouldn't be prevented from going on the station because of Adam Klein's unsourced anecdote that "Free golems are used as a free respawn to come back to the station, and mass grief and or kill your killer."
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:16 pm #594116

that's alright i have hundreds of my own anecdotes of the exact same thing
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:24 pm #594120

I'm glad we were able to come to this understanding
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:00 am #594131

Armhulen wrote:>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ

first, you're full of shit, second, if they said that, show me and I will allow you to change the code

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:24 pm #594220

Jaredfogle wrote:that's alright i have hundreds of my own anecdotes of the exact same thing


Weird how hundreds of unique individuals did some grief which is against the rules in like 3 different ways, since of course you asked an admin to tell them to follow the rules each time
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby saprasam » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:16 pm #594247

free golems are a shitty midround ghostrole that almost always cause chaos for the crew because they have access to teleporters
not to even mention that they are extremely fucking tanky & have the ability to knock you down with a single punch
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby JusticeGoat » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:09 am #594563

I feel like some of this would be solved if the ghost roles just green texted without needing to go to centcomm or had their own extraction systems, such as the golem ship taking off. Then write it in that they have no reason to go to the station.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Timberpoes » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:31 pm #594569

For additional context, https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/57367 has now been merged for a couple of days.

This doesn't restrict Free Golems from invading the station and doesn't seek to impact the policy around them at all - However, it does limit the length and breadth of ways that ghost roles can interact with the station. This includes limiting their ability to teleport and their access to easy GPS.

Has this improved how prevelant ghost roles second lifing/griffing the station is over the short-term?
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Qustinnus » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:55 pm #594576

if timber's changes havn't resolved it, I will just start pounding ghost roles with components that prevent them from leaving lavaland.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:29 pm #594578

Qustinnus wrote:if timber's changes havn't resolved it, I will just start pounding ghost roles with components that prevent them from leaving lavaland.

What if someones tries capturing an ashwalker, the admin wants to fuck around with the lavaland roles, or some prick busts out the min-tele to dunk on them? Although these are all extremely unlikely, I feel like it would just be completely bizarre if they got teleported back on lavaland (or just fucking gibbed for no reason).

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:30 pm #594586

I like the attempt to fix the issue without preventing them from visiting the station. But my understanding of it was completely different. I see the issue as Free Golems spawning, doing no work and heading straight to the station. I don't see anything wrong with that unless they're griefing. If this is a correct appraisal, then let admins handle rule breakers and security handle trespassers. If the ability to die on the station, respawn and return is an issue, add a cooldown to those cases.

But I'm not convinced the issue matters as much as people seem to think it does. There's only a vague, subjective understanding of it and no statistics to back it up.

I think the real issue is that coders' expectations don't line up with reality. The role doesn't incentivise players enough to play it. They just want to head to the station. It's boring, lonely and a lot of work for one person to get going to attract other people. This is an attempt to try to force players into compliance with the coders' intentions for the role. Rather than acknowledge its flaws and try to attract them into playing the way you want them to by fixing it. Making the station a less desirable place to be would help too. You don't have to resort to measures that make it impossible to be there though.

Timberpoes' nerfs, while well-intentioned I think, only make the role less desirable to play the way coders want players to. I don't think teleporter access is causing whatever the issues are.
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Timberpoes
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Timberpoes » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:37 pm #594590

If I could get away with it, I'd push the nuclear reset button and remove every offstation ghost role pending someone writing a design document laying out the broad intent and design vision behind offstation ghost roles.

It would be nice if ghost roles were built and mapped into the game to comply with the spirit of people playing on the station, game focus being about the station and observers having limited impact on the stations affairs outside of roles able to talk to the dead.
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby cacogen » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:47 pm #594591

Just clear the job slots of the dead and add the ability to respawn as a different character on the station, after a cooldown. It would fix so many problems. Including ghost roles being used as an opportunity to re-enter the round instead of the other shittier options. If coders could stop treating players like naughty assholes who have to be corralled and try to understand their perspective and the incentives acting on them problems like this could be resolved more easily.
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Jaredfogle
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jaredfogle » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:53 am #594602

Qustinnus wrote:if timber's changes havn't resolved it, I will just start pounding ghost roles with components that prevent them from leaving lavaland.

Oranges is clear on this (and made it clear to me after my post here)--this change requires head admin approval. Arm was going to do it, but got blocked on that.
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Domitius
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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Domitius » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:01 am #594621

Sorry guys, I really don't want to support this. I would rather we deal with a griefer now and again to keep the freedom of the role open. I wouldn't mind them getting a nerf while on the station or in pressure like some sort of slowdown but not completely blocking them.

Godspeed.

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Re: For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

Postby Jolly66 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:24 pm #595254

Once saw a golem on icebox trade to get a phazon mech off the traitor RD and proceeded to rush the AI and beat the shit out of it. Nuke golems.
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