Tighten up RP expectations on LRP

[Vekter]

Most rounds I'm observing on the LRP servers end up devolving into a mass of people just greytiding or breaking in everywhere, to the point where it's less common that I see a normal verbal interaction than someone breaking a window and just waltzing in. SS13's going to have its goofy bullshit and wacky hijinks, but there's a point where it's less engaging and more just people running around pretending to be insane.

Do I want it to the levels where MRP is? Fuck no, it's LRP. I don't expect antags to limit their killing or these things being objectively against the rules, but sometimes the LRP servers feel like we're just ignoring the base expectation to at least put some effort into things.

I'm proposing that we copy this MRP rule to the servers in general:

6: Play as a coherent, believable character.
Real life realism is not required, and you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.) There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it.

Of course, I would like to see this enforced a little lax on the LRP servers, but I think people just fucking off and ignoring their jobs all round or straight-up negatively impacting rounds for no reason should probably be toned down a bit. My suggested rewrite would be:

You are encouraged to be silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.) While you're allowed a great deal of freedom, you're still expected to do your job to at least the minimum. We're all here to have fun and part of that is cooperating with the other crew members. This, of course, does not apply to antagonists.

[wesoda25]

Could you provide some more examples of character types, playstyles, and habits that you are currently dissatisfied with? It helps to remove abstraction when we can focus on certain behavior, and then decide whether it's truly problematic (and from there how to "solve" it).

[Domitius]

I swear to god if I see another player taking station engineer just so they can tide I'm gonna lose a gasket. If you want to tide be proud and grey, please don't take job slots away from other players who want to fulfill the role. If any players take a job they should be expected to fulfill some part of it before fucking off. For example station engineers setting up solars/the sm, cooks make some amount of food, etc.

I would love that rewrite to be implemented for the regular servers and I can't wait to see what people have to say. Possibly Rule 5 could be turned into this and make the current rule 5 a precedent for it? Would be an interesting change!

For reference

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Rule 5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

[Vekter]

I think the main thing I want to discourage is the insistence of some players to just break into a workplace and steal stuff instead of trying to, y'know. Talk. That kind of mindset. I feel like the ID rework has helped curb some of this by making AA much harder to get, but where someone can't get access, they'll usually grab something and just break a window to get in.

Additionally, people being more concerned with robbing someone blind than taking them to get healed. I get looting bodies and I'm not about to say that's not allowed, but if you're going to steal their shit, at least take them to medical afterwards.

Just general things like that. People seem more concerned with just running around causing chaos and treating the game like a single-player experience than just roleplaying in a... well, roleplaying game.

The idea of the rule change would be to encourage people to put forth at least some minimal effort into roleplaying. I wouldn't see it as a hard "do this or you're banned immediately" rule but something to help us push players in the right direction.

Yes, this would include encouraging assistants to actually do something instead of just cocking around. Not worried about them getting a job, but assistant should be a job for newer players to learn how to play or people to bounce between departments for helping instead of being the requisite "dick around" position.

EDIT: I can accept that assistants can keep being the fuck around position as long as we tighten up the definition and enforcement against greytiding.

Also to build on Domi's point, I'm perfectly fine with Engineers fucking off to space to do builds/projects as long as the engine is going and producing power. That's 100% a-ok.

[Exavere]

I agree, I don't want LRP to be like MRP like said in Bus. But LRP with at least enough RP to give little bit more of a shit, rather than just looting someone's body and not bringing them to at least medical, would be great. The change may also, possibly, be helpful in regards to Rule 1 dealings with problem players who constantly spend every round just spam tiding to a detriment and bringing something negative to the round 24/7. Don't get me wrong, having the classic assistant that valids the murderbone antag with Sec is always great and I don't want to completely get rid of that.

Sec V. Greytide, that's a massive staple in the style of the game especially on LRP - has been for a very long time, but more often than not Greytiders (Even ones inside of Engineer and Science, yes Domi these ones are CRINGE) will just aggravate Departments to the point of self antagging many rounds in a row without doing anything else and Sec will often not be good enough to be able to handle them. Sec isn't always innocent here either, and often will dish out punishments far greater than necessary for simple jokes/tiding IC creating inflation down the line but at times I cannot really blame them. Sometimes it's hard to be the bigger man, brigging 15 year olds who relish the salt mines caused by their shittery rather than just breaking their legs and throwing them into space.

The change will allow us to target problem behavior easier, before it gets to become too much, to create more of an opener within the confines of the rules to deal with problem players so to say. You wouldn't have to purely rely on Rule 1 which can often make things look more personal than they really are, even though that rule by itself is all we really need to deal with these issues. In a perfect world, as Twat said in #BUS, they'd just have better etiquette in regards to dealing with each other and not take everything so personally nor do the wrong things at the wrong times. I still want Tiders to break into places, mess with Sec and steal shit. I just don't want to them to be turbo dicks about it all to the time, to where it becomes the norm.

There is a lot that could be said about this topic, but I do not want to ramble on for 30+ paragraphs since I've already done it enough kekw and would rather just spill my initial thoughts onto the matter. I feel most of the issues can be handled already, given the way the rules are now, but having more of an opener like I said will be beneficial. Just hope it's utilized mostly to deal with shitters.

[Flatulent]

your perception of how believable and coherent players must be played is flawed

[Vekter]

your perception of how believable and coherent players must be played is flawed

I would expect that if you're bringing a point to the table you'd be doing so with more than just "you are wrong".

Can I ask how my perception is flawed?

[TheFinalPotato]

Come on man you know that's not the point, if you're going to disagree disagree properly

[Flatulent]

The way I see it, Vekter wants to ban people for tiding on LRP but because it’s going to lead to backlash, he wants to cover his ass by adding a new rule.

[PKPenguin321]

I don't see how that rule correlates to the issue you're trying to solve in your OP

[Vekter]

I don't see how that rule correlates to the issue you're trying to solve in your OP

Just my idea of what the rule would sound like. We can tweak it to something fitting better if need be. Lord knows I'm not the best in the world at writing rules.

[Flatulent]

Literally all you need to do is give security a green light to slay tiders on spot

[Vekter]

Literally all you need to do is give security a green light to slay tiders on spot

This would do the exact opposite of what I'm wanting to accomplish - if sec starts killing tiders off the bat, nobody's going to trust sec worth a damn and it's just going to keep escalating.

[Flatulent]

On the contrary, serious consequences for breaking into places will serve as an effective deterrent

[Vekter]

On the contrary, serious consequences for breaking into places will serve as an effective deterrent

We tried something similar to this by making it so anyone who kills a station pet is valid. We had to remove it because people kept doing it for the purposes of being automatically valid and then murdering other people under the guise of self-defense.

[Yenwodyah]

No thanks. Greytiding and fighting against greytiders is fun. If you want more opportunities to pretend you're a real person on a space station, make another MRP server. Also, there should definitely be a server poll if you're going to redefine what LRP means.

I would like to see people who tide then suicide when they get caught banned though.

[PepperPrepper]

On the contrary, serious consequences for breaking into places will serve as an effective deterrent

We tried something similar to this by making it so anyone who kills a station pet is valid. We had to remove it because people kept doing it for the purposes of being automatically valid and then murdering other people under the guise of self-defense.

from: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings

Validity when killing pets: If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you.

Kind of derailing here but surely the above ruling would mean you are still valid upon killing Ian?

Unless the ruling has been overturned and the page is yet to be updated.

[Flatulent]

On the contrary, serious consequences for breaking into places will serve as an effective deterrent

We tried something similar to this by making it so anyone who kills a station pet is valid. We had to remove it because people kept doing it for the purposes of being automatically valid and then murdering other people under the guise of self-defense.

you cant kill sec under self defense they have meta protections

[cacogen]

No, we have Manuel when I want to play a psuedo-extended 3 hour cargo round with the lizard metasquad where Dynamic xenos or cultists ruin everything and Terry when I want a 40 minute fuckfest with barely literate 15 year olds powergaming and treating it like TDM. I enjoy both. I don't see why everything has to be homogenised.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

No, we have Manuel when I want to play a psuedo-extended 3 hour cargo round with the lizard metasquad where Dynamic xenos or cultists ruin everything and Terry when I want a 40 minute fuckfest with barely literate 15 year olds powergaming and treating it like TDM. I enjoy both. I don't see why everything has to be homogenised.

This is why terry needs helps right there

[Vekter]

No thanks. Greytiding and fighting against greytiders is fun. If you want more opportunities to pretend you're a real person on a space station, make another MRP server. Also, there should definitely be a server poll if you're going to redefine what LRP means.

I would like to see people who tide then suicide when they get caught banned though.

No, we have Manuel when I want to play a psuedo-extended 3 hour cargo round with the lizard metasquad where Dynamic xenos or cultists ruin everything and Terry when I want a 40 minute fuckfest with barely literate 15 year olds powergaming and treating it like TDM. I enjoy both. I don't see why everything has to be homogenised.

You should probably re-read the OP, specifically the part where I said that we wouldn't have the LRP servers anywhere near to the level the MRP servers are.

This didn't used to be a controversial idea, mind - MRP as it is now is how the servers used to play for the most part before the SSeth video came out. The expectations have tanked over the last few years and we need to tighten them back up to where they were.

[pugie]

I love the people that don't play Terry who complain about it being an awful and deranged wild west type place that you do not go. Like Detroit but with... EUROPEANS!!

Come on please, gonna assumedly speak for most LRP players but we don't want job rp where you're encouraged to play a believable character (by this I mean if you do something a little bit WACKY like break a window you play the bwoink roulette depending on if a based imsxz-lite admin is on or an UNBASED banbot one (not naming names).

A strength of LRP servers is the tendency for things to happen that would be totally unexpected at a place with higher RP standards, like doing anything that would likely get them fired. Forcing people to act like they wanna keep their job due to open to interpretation rules like this is going to take that away, for what to encourage less tiding? We already have a rule for that, rule 1 and rule 0 and we don't need "higher rp standards" on LRP servers to ban tiders.

People will always soft grief and take liberties where they can on any server, on LRP especially thanks to the forgiving rules which basically extend to not ruining the round for others and being an ok human being, this rule won't punish them anymore it will just lead to people being scared of being banned for doing anything non-conforming to civil admin protection guidelines.

but I think people just fucking off and ignoring their jobs all round or straight-up negatively impacting rounds for no reason should probably be toned down a bit.

People who """ignore their job""" big whoop we have job bans for heads of staff and security who act like this regularly. As for other people, why is it your goddamn business as an admin to tell someone the janitor has to clean puddles today, and no they aren't allowed to steal tools from engi to build a shop or something? This is literally so negligible people ignoring their jobs isn't that bad in the majority of situations and when it is bad admins already note and job ban people like engis who greytide which brings us to the second part of this quote.

People who negatively impact rounds get banned anyways lmao stating that this rule will help with that is such bs and only serves the purpose to slowly mould /tg/ into your ideal manuel ethnostate.

[cacogen]

Terry reminds me of how the servers used to be. I don't see why some servers can't be focused on PvP and quick rounds while others are focused on roleplay and developing the station. Sticky mentioned an idea for an anarchy server. Different servers can have different rules. Why are roleplay standards necessary?

[Sylphet]

We already have a rule for that, rule 1 and rule 0 and we don't need "higher rp standards" on LRP servers to ban tiders.

I honestly agree with this. LRP absolutely has a problem with people openly talking about admins and bwoinking IC, and not even trying to pretend that they're a person on a space station - but we have ways to handle this. It's an enforcement issue, not a gap in the rules. Some jannies are just too lenient with applying the rules that we have, and adding more won't fix this.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Terry reminds me of how the servers used to be. I don't see why some servers can't be focused on PvP and quick rounds while others are focused on roleplay and developing the station. Sticky mentioned an idea for an anarchy server. Different servers can have different rules. Why are roleplay standards necessary?

Terry doesnt really feel how any server other than event hall was. or more like, it's what all the people on the other servers who didnt play event hall said event hall was

[Naloac]

You should probably re-read the OP, specifically the part where I said that we wouldn't have the LRP servers anywhere near to the level the MRP servers are.

This didn't used to be a controversial idea, mind - MRP as it is now is how the servers used to play for the most part before the SSeth video came out. The expectations have tanked over the last few years and we need to tighten them back up to where they were.

MRP in name only, Go back decently far before and people will say TG is LRP this includes far before the sseth video. Many of our players are expecting a completely different experience than playing on MRP. Disliking people not sticking to their role every round they play or somehow linked to that role is possibly the worst take you could have in a game with so much openness and mechanics. The reason I and many other people fell in love with this game was its many different ways of doing different things and how those things react to each other, not forcing me to spend all my time standing around talking to people if I have a goal for the round in mind. LRP gives people both the freedom of doing whatever within reason but also allowing RP moment to spring up without railroading it as much.

Problematic tiding is already something we deal with. People in high positions not doing their jobs is something we already deal with. You've exactly said extremely little about the actual problematic play you want to solve bar you want people to be forced into a box they cannot leave. Which in opinion seems insane.

you cant kill sec under self defense they have meta protections

If sec is acting like antagonists then treat them as such. If you've done nothing wrong but they are trying to kill you, you are allowed to kill them

Unless the ruling has been overturned and the page is yet to be updated.

I am also under the assumption that that was never overruled and I think vekter is mistaken. Im near sure that killing station pets still makes you valid.

[Naloac]

adding on to my own point, I see this alot from some of the jannies but why is a server thats built up from a different standard from a different set of ingame norms from the same ingame rule set is seen as a such a bad thing. As long as administration stays consistent between these norms (like it largely already is) I dont see why these norms cant exist and have to be forced to conform. If people arent breaking the rules why try to change the rules for everyone to *fix* how a large amount of people enjoy the game. Just because you dont like how these people play doesnt mean what they are doing is less valid than what you like to do ingame. As long as people are doing the minimum aka an engineer setting up the SM (which needs 1 person to do to its minimum spec for the entire station) I dont see why they cant just go fuck off and have some fun with the codebases many MANY fun things to do.

If you want more people staying in their lane and not doing other things the issue is that job doesnt have enough engaging content to make them never want to leave that job which in my opinion isnt a great thing.

[Domitius]

People who """ignore their job""" big whoop we have job bans for heads of staff and security who act like this regularly. As for other people, why is it your goddamn business as an admin to tell someone the janitor has to clean puddles today, and no they aren't allowed to steal tools from engi to build a shop or something? This is literally so negligible people ignoring their jobs isn't that bad in the majority of situations and when it is bad admins already note and job ban people like engis who greytide which brings us to the second part of this quote.

As much as Pugie makes me want to throw them through a wall I think they make a good point that it's not an admins business how players choose to play as long as they aren't breaking server rules.

Staying in your lane isn't something that I would ever want to see for the regular servers.

When it gets boiled down I realize my feathers are really only ruffled at station engineers who fuck off after looting engineering to go tide and that is just something we could handle case by case without changing up any of the rules.

No thanks. Greytiding and fighting against greytiders is fun. If you want more opportunities to pretend you're a real person on a space station, make another MRP server. Also, there should definitely be a server poll if you're going to redefine what LRP means.

I would like to see people who tide then suicide when they get caught banned though.

This policy thread has repeated many times assistants/greytide are not the target here at all and nothing would change for them.

A server poll or a community meeting would definitely be in order for something of this magnitude if it gets past the discussion stage.

[Vekter]

Lepi makes a good point, and the more I look at the issue the more I think this is more of a problem with uneven enforcement of server rules and less with the rules themselves.

I'm satisfied with that much and I'm fine to close this out.

[wesoda25]

Proposed rule 5 rewrite (rough): (just for the job part)

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Players in a job which is critical to the basic functions of a round (security, command, medbay, engineering) are expected to make a reasonable effort in carrying out the expected functions of their job. Heads of Staff are expected to make a constant and good faith effort towards carrying out their jobs. The intention of this rule is to punish negligence of one’s job, not incompetency or naivety. 

If you go janitor and don’t clean anything, you’re a cunt but it’s not a huge deal. If you’re an engineer who doesn’t touch the SM and immediately go to space, you’re a cunt and it starts to actually matter.

[Ghilker]

Proposed rule 5 rewrite (rough): (just for the job part)

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Players in a job which is critical to the basic functions of a round (security, command, medbay, engineering) are expected to make a reasonable effort in carrying out the expected functions of their job. Heads of Staff are expected to make a constant and good faith effort towards carrying out their jobs. The intention of this rule is to punish negligence of one’s job, not incompetency or naivety. 

If you go janitor and don’t clean anything, you’re a cunt but it’s not a huge deal. If you’re an engineer who doesn’t touch the SM and immediately go to space, you’re a cunt and it starts to actually matter.

lmao just break into engi and do the setup yourself you wimp

[cacogen]

I honestly agree with this. LRP absolutely has a problem with people openly talking about admins and bwoinking IC, and not even trying to pretend that they're a person on a space station

The standards here used to be much more lax before Saegrimr ruined it with his autism. I don't see why this is a problem on LRP.

As much as Pugie makes me want to throw them through a wall

nice

[Armhulen]

I don't see why this is a problem on LRP.

Literally standard drops only came back after hippie refugees came in from the server that crashed and burned, i don't wanna play hippie. If you wanna play in a game where everyone else is like "wow you valid hunted that guy who rolled heretic next round i'll play security and fortify the armory lol" that's fine but you'd have to be insane to call it "ROLEPLAY"

[Armhulen]

What role is this? Fat fucking geed with acne breakouts playing fall sides simulator? Oh interesting, also interesting how everyone else is also playing that role huh

[cacogen]

I don't see why this is a problem on LRP.

Literally standard drops only came back after hippie refugees came in from the server that crashed and burned, i don't wanna play hippie. If you wanna play in a game where everyone else is like "wow you valid hunted that guy who rolled heretic next round i'll play security and fortify the armory lol" that's fine but you'd have to be insane to call it "ROLEPLAY"

We used to use smiles and OOC terminology occasionally IC as a joke and nobody cared until Saegrimr started giving out excessive bans for it. I looked back over one of the logs I have from 2012 but I cannot prove this

Spoiler:

[Eskjjlj]

I think it's interesting how it's always Manuel admins with a minimal amount of playtime on LRP servers who complain about the chaos.
They don't like this kind of gameplay which is why they play on Manuel in the first place.

Many other players like the current state of LRP servers and this is the reason why they are so popular.

[bobbahbrown]

I don't see why this is a problem on LRP.

Literally standard drops only came back after hippie refugees came in from the server that crashed and burned, i don't wanna play hippie. If you wanna play in a game where everyone else is like "wow you valid hunted that guy who rolled heretic next round i'll play security and fortify the armory lol" that's fine but you'd have to be insane to call it "ROLEPLAY"

We used to use smiles and OOC terminology occasionally IC as a joke and nobody cared until Saegrimr started giving out excessive bans for it. I looked back over one of the logs I have from 2012 but I cannot prove this

i remember frank radar...

tightening up regulations on lrp i feel may kill the vibe on lrp........

but i have been wrong before....

best wishes,
bobbah 'bee' brown

[Intercept0r]

Terry: Greytiders and validhunters playing TDM and communicating exclusively in Gamer Words and memes. Insuls are meant to be stolen, tech storage is meant to be raided, AA is meant to be leaked. The only RP is E, the interrogation room is for stashing pipe shotguns or chemfactory AP syringes. The only difference between a blatant antag and an average nontag spessman is whether this blood-soaked masked man with a gun is shooting at you or not.

What pugie is saying, I think, is that he would be unwilling, incapable (or both) of enforcing such a rule on Terry. I see why - enforcing MRP will end in open revolt.

Just reopen Campbell instead.

[Vekter]

Gonna go ahead and lock this since I feel like the discussion's reached its conclusion.