Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

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Armhulen
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Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Armhulen » #599581

Bottom post of the previous page:

I've found this to be a practice that nearly all admins disapprove of currently, and really that it's a vestige of old times kept around because in ye olde days a fair few old mins did it. Players who see drip fed information on who bombed the station and who released the virus and who looted the armory and whether the revolution is real and whether the cult is real and etc etc can NOT avoid using the information they learn from admin logs and tickets to their advantage, even if they aren't trying. Even if this doesn't get changed, it's nice to revisit this really really really old rule

A lot of people will say that this comes from a place of not TRUSTING other admins but that's not true. The issue was never that we have admins consciously abusing information they shouldn't have while playing, the issue is that it is ENTIRELY UNAVOIDABLE to act upon information you gained while adminning and dealing with tickets. Essentially in the very same vein of "Don't handle tickets involving yourself" in the sense that you have an unavoidable unconscious bias in tickets that you handle yourself. In that same vein, knowing information nobody else knows about the vitals of a round is doing the same thing but on the player side.

I suggest we draw a new line in the sand, one that is very simple and on about the same level as handling your own tickets:

If you want to deal with an admin issue as a deadminned admin, adminhelp. Or ping supportmin in the normal channels
If it is absolutely necessary to get an admin on the problem (OOC spamming locations of antagonists, or something like that) the admin can leave their body/position in the round for good.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cobby » #599838

We permaban or threaten to for people who we catch acting funny with OOC information, and I don’t buy the dm argument because you aren’t a dm when you are playing and adminning. You are a player who is strictly doing the non-dm aspect of adminning in these instances. I have zero problems with interacting with the world as a dmpc for the purpose of what you would classically do for a ttrpg, which in ss13 usually is called running events.

Even then, dmpcs like those exist usually because you are trying to pad out the party and you’re forgetting we have a great DM in the background already which are game mechanics. The game can run without an admin existing, which can’t be said really for a ttrpg’s version of a DM.

Again if I see admins on while I’m on I’m telling them to get off, even currently. If I get pressed on it I will just deadmin you myself and you can take it to complaints lol. You being an admin to me shouldn’t mean you constantly put yourself at a risk of using this information (not strictly for metagaming in the more obvious sense like knowing the bad guys when you shouldn’t).

“Just trust me” integrity is surpassed by making your integrity not even come into question in the first place. That’s not to say we have to be unreasonable about it, but again I’m not sure why we’re so insistent on allowing this opportunity so flippantly ESPECIALLY WHEN WE HAD ABUSE OF IT IN THE PAST.

Edit: also skog brought up a good point I’d like to imagine I alluded to thar people shouldn’t forget which is you going admin makes it so people are unaware they should get on and cover for you in the first place. This is why I personally would require people who do this also try to notify other admins to come on.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cimika » #599841

Whatever the end result of this is, I hope we can still admin and do off-station content like charlie or derelict to pad out the time during a slow shift.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Timberpoes » #599852

Summary:
  • By adminning while playing you're poisoning the tree and by dealing with tickets you're taking the poisoned fruit.
  • Matters that don't directly relate to the shift like spamming in OOC or IC in OOC are matters where you can safely admin up, mute them or mute OOC and deadmin back down.
  • There is no need to be playing while adminned, as you ought not to be taking any tickets involving a shift you're participating in as a player.
  • Using metaknowledge to act like you don't have metaknowledge is still using metaknowledge.
  • Playing while adminned is giving yourself a distinct advantage over every other player in the shift.
  • Intentionally acting in a way so that you don't benefit from your metaknowledge is just using your metaknowledge to avoid getting in trouble for having metaknowledge.
  • You stop ahelp relays.
  • We already yell at admins who are in adminbus while playing to stop reading it. If we don't trust admins to be in adminbus while playing, why do we trust them be adminned in game while playing?
---------------------------------

If you are participating in a shift, you should not be handling tickets related to the shift full stop. If you're participating in the shift, every administrative decision you take is going to be tainted to some degree by the fact that you were participating in that shift as a player. Nabski's anecdote of "If I was playing then I would have an actual feel for the round" is the gold standard of ringing alarm bells, because they should not have been handling tickets if they were connected enough to the events that they "had an actual feel for them".

Playing in a shift while adminned is creating a poisoned tree. Any ahelp you personally take that involves a shift you were playing in is taking a fruit from the poisonous tree. You don't need to be adminned to deal with OOC in IC. If you see IC in OOC then that means you're directly related enough to the events of the shift that you shouldn't be handling it. Investigating any ticket relating to the conduct of players is going to involve you getting various levels of metaknowledge that nobody else in the shift is going to be privy to.

And whgat use is playing adminned if you shouldn't handle any tickets relating to the shift itself? Sure, admin up to mute OOC or OOC mute players or take very basic administrative action which does not involve you impacting the shift or the events of the shift in any way. But that is adminning up when you're playing while deadminned, not playing adminned permanently.

We have anecdotes from admins who admit they use their admin metaknowledge to avoid interactions with players so they'll never get into a situation where they're forced to confront their own metaknowledge. They pick roles to intentionally avoid people because they're adminned up. It also seems like it's commonly accepted to use your metaknowledge to allow yourself to intentionally "lose" air quotes so you can justify playing while adminning. That is not how the game is intended to be played. You are playing and using your admin metaknowledge to directly impact how the round is progressing. Players don't get the benefit of choosing when, where and how they die by picking which pieces of OOC metaknowledge about the shift they're going to act on or otherwise. When you're playing the shift as if you were a player, an admin should be no different to a player. They should play by the same rules and be held to the same standards, if not greater.

Choosing to change how you're playing the game to avoid your metaknowledge having an impact on your shift is biasing your play because of your metaknowledge. Two biases don't cancel eachother out, you're just biased in one direction because you chose to play adminned and biased in a different direction because you chose to change how you played either because of metaknowledge or simply because you have metaknowledge.

Choosing to actively use your metaknowledge to decide who you do and don't fight and who you do and don't lose fights to - Even if you decide "I have metaknowledge about everything so I won't fight back" is STILL using your metaknowledge.

And finally - Players also don't get a heads-up when they've been ahelped. Players who are playing while adminned do. I've seen player-admins stay adminned while there are ahelps involving them and involving the shift that they're not allowed to handle due to involvement. Imagine players being able to read the responses ahelps people send about them as the shift is ongoing. It's a nutty argument to bring forward.

You also block ahelp relays and appear as if you're not playing when admins run an adminwho to see if any servers need coverage.

Once Hulk told Spookuni and me off for using prayers and/or ahelp tickets to chat about random shit while Spook was playing an offstation role in one shift. If that's not allowed, then by extension admins being adminned up to chat with thier buddies in asay while playing the shift should also be prohibited.

And finally, while adminning you're expected to be around the admin channels on the Discord. While playing, you're expected to not be around the admin channels on the Discord. I'm sure there's a really good reason we require admins to not be hanging around the admin channels - Especially adminbus - While playing.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Armhulen » #599858

Cimika wrote:Whatever the end result of this is, I hope we can still admin and do off-station content like charlie or derelict to pad out the time during a slow shift.
It sounds like if any policy gets decided at most you're going to just have to alert people that there isn't anyone on the server before you charlie and play
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by MrStonedOne » #599859

Back when I was an admin candidate: getting high, playing janitor/miner, and shitposting in asay with my trainer (bluespace), and my fellow candidate (sticky) was some of the most fun I had admining.

There isn't any need to remove that out of fear that admins will do something players who were revived can already do and are trusted to not do.

One: most tickets are gameplay/help related.

Two: the second type of tickets would be security/assistant related. It doesn't give me any undo info into the round to hit the ic button on assistant McGriff's ticket bitching about getting their insuls and multi-tool taken away after they got caught trying to upload "Opening doors for people prevents harm".

Three: You fuckers are the ones against mentors. I've been pushing for them forever.

Admins Mentoring while playing is the perfect solution to my main point.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Armhulen » #599863

Okay mentoring would be a bit pog
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by RaveRadbury » #599869

Creating these restrictions will hinder training of new candidates and increase admin burnout in exchange for a sense of moral purity that doesn't have immediate tangible benefit.

It's impractical and not worth it.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cobby » #599872

MrStonedOne wrote:Back when I was an admin candidate: getting high, playing janitor/miner, and shitposting in asay with my trainer (bluespace), and my fellow candidate (sticky) was some of the most fun I had admining.

There isn't any need to remove that out of fear that admins will do something players who were revived can already do and are trusted to not do.

One: most tickets are gameplay/help related.

Two: the second type of tickets would be security/assistant related. It doesn't give me any undo info into the round to hit the ic button on assistant McGriff's ticket bitching about getting their insuls and multi-tool taken away after they got caught trying to upload "Opening doors for people prevents harm".

Three: You fuckers are the ones against mentors. I've been pushing for them forever.

Admins Mentoring while playing is the perfect solution to my main point.
Players revived do not have access to a direct line of information of where people are (aghost) and what is actively happening in the round (dsay/asay) , so its a bit disingenuous to suggest that they're on par.

A dead player also does not have access to what admins are doing, or where explosions are happening, etc. that are posted in ahelp logs.

We should just give players who died permanent deadchat access post-revival, in addition to a button to tell them if the person who killed them what kind of antag they are and tell them to not use it to any capacity bar when they personally believe it's necessary.

1) I agree, which is why playermins shouldnt exist. "How do I activate my syndicate PDA" with a ingame name suddenly makes your character do a double take everytime that person goes by the hall.

2) It certainly makes you look like trash if you were too busy playing to look into it or, more likely, you had SOME interaction with them in the round that now brings your ruling into question, even if it was a fair call to make.

3) I still am, if it doesnt fall into an example like the one i posted in 1 it can just be asked in OOC or F1 or discord, all of which are extremely accessible.

Admins not knowing how to play without admin on speaks more volumes about their burnout rate than it does with any perceived problem regarding a lack of mentoring system. We have a wiki, discord hotline, OOC hotline, admin hotline/F1, and perhaps the most obvious one being ingame. If you cant access one, being F1, then you still have plenty of options. Even with F1 it gets relayed to discord.
RaveRadbury wrote:Creating these restrictions will hinder training of new candidates and increase admin burnout in exchange for a sense of moral purity that doesn't have immediate tangible benefit.

It's impractical and not worth it.
Why are you training admins when you want to play? Your mentality of there must be an admin available in adminwho when we literally have a system for relaying to discord or that you must train the individual with immediacy when you just wanted to play a few ss13 rounds is way more destructive than asking you to avoid administrating when you do choose to play.

It's not impractical (maybe the OP is but idk how to tell people to stop reading that and tackle a more sensible position), you simply lost touch with how to enjoy the game as a player.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Naloac » #599874

I havent read most of this thread yet but my default opinion is just to never admin and play. General admin messages give away alot. If an admin needs an admin they can call a supportmin. Since ive been an admin trainer I will explicitly tell all my jannies to never admin and play, it opens you up to trouble if you do. Im generally fine with ghost roles apart from the ones like ash lizards.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by skoglol » #599875

MrAlphonzo wrote:I'm not sure why this was brought up at a time when staff retention is terrible, we just lost an entire new litter of gameadmins to burnout already.

This won't help.
So we have a problem with admins burning out, and an unhealthy obsession with being adminned all the time. I am pretty confident in saying there is a connection here. Nobody should feel forced to admin, and people who admin every round should remember to (only) play once in a while (or ideally all the time). You will be much more useful if you admin a few rounds here and there for a year than if you admin every round for a month and disappear.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by RaveRadbury » #599879

Cobby wrote: Why are you training admins when you want to play? Your mentality of there must be an admin available in adminwho when we literally have a system for relaying to discord or that you must train the individual with immediacy when you just wanted to play a few ss13 rounds is way more destructive than asking you to avoid administrating when you do choose to play.

It's not impractical (maybe the OP is but idk how to tell people to stop reading that and tackle a more sensible position), you simply lost touch with how to enjoy the game as a player.
Other way around, it's about allowing trialmins opportunities to see admins carry out stuff as it happens rather than having to sit out and be the ghost at the feast with a significant chance of nothing happening.

It's a convenience thing.

We have logging and checks for this stuff already.

Even if this stuff was abused in the past it was not significant enough for anyone to suggest a solution like the one being offered in this thread. What's more, now that this thread is underway proponents of it have failed to substantiate recent concrete examples that necessitate the suggestion be carried out.

This is groundless moral panic, we don't need to fix what isn't broken.

Significant changes like this should only be carried out when concrete instances that warrant the change can be demonstrated to have occurred.

edit:
>we literally have a system for relaying to discord

Supportmin pings frequently go unhandled, the relay doesn't even ping people. It's not that great of a system, especially because it doesn't put a name in awho. It's not an acceptable replacement for an available admin on the server. Multiple players have contributed to this thread with sentiments to that effect. They want a name in awho, they do not care if the admin is playing, they trust the admin to be responsible.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by MrAlphonzo » #599884

skoglol wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote:snip
So we have a problem with admins burning out, and an unhealthy obsession with being adminned all the time. I am pretty confident in saying there is a connection here. Nobody should feel forced to admin, and people who admin every round should remember to (only) play once in a while (or ideally all the time). You will be much more useful if you admin a few rounds here and there for a year than if you admin every round for a month and disappear.
I'm not sure why you would leave out the part where I said this policy would take a lot of the fun out of adminning, for the same reasons that Wubli and MSO stated. Where did you get "obsession" from describing what makes the job fun?
RaveRadbury wrote:Creating these restrictions will hinder training of new candidates and increase admin burnout in exchange for a sense of moral purity that doesn't have immediate tangible benefit.

It's impractical and not worth it.
Rave is correct. We get nothing out of this.

Forbidding being adminned while playing when other staff are online seems pointless to me, and counterproductive to what this policy is trying to achieve.

If you're trying to weed out bad actors on the team, wouldn't you want them caught in the act by other staff?
They'd have access to the same information, as its happening, and be jumping around the map to keep tabs on things. So, if they keep seeing the same admin in-game showing up to all the drama, its not exactly rocket science to figure out what they're doing.
MrStonedOne wrote: most tickets are gameplay/help related.

Admins Mentoring while playing is the perfect solution to my main point.
Like MSO said here, one of our jobs is to help with gameplay and mechanic related questions.
Cutting out our playtime isn't going to help us keep up with the constantly changing game with a steep learning curve wherein one of our jobs is to educate new players.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by PKPenguin321 » #599887

Cobby wrote:
MrStonedOne wrote:Back when I was an admin candidate: getting high, playing janitor/miner, and shitposting in asay with my trainer (bluespace), and my fellow candidate (sticky) was some of the most fun I had admining.

There isn't any need to remove that out of fear that admins will do something players who were revived can already do and are trusted to not do.

One: most tickets are gameplay/help related.

Two: the second type of tickets would be security/assistant related. It doesn't give me any undo info into the round to hit the ic button on assistant McGriff's ticket bitching about getting their insuls and multi-tool taken away after they got caught trying to upload "Opening doors for people prevents harm".

Three: You fuckers are the ones against mentors. I've been pushing for them forever.

Admins Mentoring while playing is the perfect solution to my main point.
Players revived do not have access to a direct line of information of where people are (aghost) and what is actively happening in the round (dsay/asay) , so its a bit disingenuous to suggest that they're on par.

A dead player also does not have access to what admins are doing, or where explosions are happening, etc. that are posted in ahelp logs.
are you high? ghosts have the Observe verb to track virtually whatever they want, an effective hivemind by just asking who is traitor in dchat, and get alerts that snap them straight to the majority of any kind of bomb or other fun traitorous activity. i wouldnt call the point that "revived players can metagame basically as much as an admin can" disingenuous at all because they can see virtually anything that would matter to a player who wants to cheat and metagame. how is this point disingenuous when we actively ban players for cheating like this, and have done so since the games inception?

we have to offer this level of trust to dead players and ban them when they break that trust, so shouldn't it follow that we can offer the same trust to admins and ban admins who break that trust in the same vein? if an admin wants to cheat and metagame, he does NOT have to admin-play to do so.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Misdoubtful » #599890

The only thing I can think to post in this thread is just, questions. A lot of questions.

Why would admins be held to a standard 'ENTIRELY UNAVOIDABLE to act upon information you gained while adminning', yet players not be held to a similar standard of 'ENTIRELY UNAVOIDABLE to act upon information you gained while ghosted'? Does that make sense, otherwise would we even have ghosts? Is this because people roleplay inside of this game, through the use of discretion? Is it unreasonable to assume that if players use discretion, so too would admins?

Adminning is something subjective isn't it? Would forcing ultimatums rather than guidelines of good practice rub people the wrong way and lead to burnt bridges and burnout?

What will this accomplish? How will it accomplish it?
How reasonable is this to enforce? What will happen regarding admins that don't agree with it?
Who will this empower?
What will this solve today?

Is this proposals expectations clear? Are those expectations fair to everyone?
What benefits will this provide to admins? To players?
How flexible and open to interpretation is this proposal? How many edge cases will this create?
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Nabski » #599892

Timberpoes wrote:
If you are participating in a shift, you should not be handling tickets related to the shift full stop. If you're participating in the shift, every administrative decision you take is going to be tainted to some degree by the fact that you were participating in that shift as a player. Nabski's anecdote of "If I was playing then I would have an actual feel for the round" is the gold standard of ringing alarm bells, because they should not have been handling tickets if they were connected enough to the events that they "had an actual feel for them".
I have the attention span of a gnat and am typically have two games open at once, one I'm playing and the other for when I'm bored with the first one. If I was "only" adminning it was unlikely I would be bothering to keep up with station events or chatlogs. If I was playing I'd have a better idea of "security is mass implanting everyone""medbay has been stacked 4 deep all shift""no-one set up the engine".
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Timberpoes wrote: Once Hulk told Spookuni and me off for using prayers and/or ahelp tickets to chat about random shit while Spook was playing an offstation role in one shift. If that's not allowed, then by extension admins being adminned up to chat with thier buddies in asay while playing the shift should also be prohibited.
Hulk what the fuck is that trash request, chatting pointless shit in tickets is a good time.
Timberpoes wrote: [*]We already yell at admins who are in adminbus while playing to stop reading it. If we don't trust admins to be in adminbus while playing, why do we trust them be adminned in game while playing?
And finally, while adminning you're expected to be around the admin channels on the Discord. While playing, you're expected to not be around the admin channels on the Discord. I'm sure there's a really good reason we require admins to not be hanging around the admin channels - Especially adminbus - While playing.
Don't read adminbus while playing is a new one to me, when did that come about and why?
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by skoglol » #599901

MrAlphonzo wrote:
skoglol wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote:snip
So we have a problem with admins burning out, and an unhealthy obsession with being adminned all the time. I am pretty confident in saying there is a connection here. Nobody should feel forced to admin, and people who admin every round should remember to (only) play once in a while (or ideally all the time). You will be much more useful if you admin a few rounds here and there for a year than if you admin every round for a month and disappear.
I'm not sure why you would leave out the part where I said this policy would take a lot of the fun out of adminning, for the same reasons that Wubli and MSO stated. Where did you get "obsession" from describing what makes the job fun?
Is there a reason you as an admin are unable to have fun in the game or while adminning if you have to wait until the round is over to discuss round events with a player/admin in that round? This is what normal players do, because otherwise they would be breaking our rules. Could you maybe just PM this person on discord if you wanted to talk about that cool thing that happened to you today instead of using ASAY?
MrAlphonzo wrote:Cutting out our playtime isn't going to help us keep up with the constantly changing game with a steep learning curve wherein one of our jobs is to educate new players.
This is why I call it an obsession. You dont consider it an option to keep playing the same amount if you cannot be adminned at the same time. You are prioritizing being an admin before being a player, and this is also what will inevitably happen if you admin while playing. Being adminned 100% of the time will also contribute heavily to admin burnout.

I understand that change like this is hard when you are set in your ways, but most of the times it is for the better.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by oranges » #599909

I play while adminned so as long as I'm headcoder this will never be a config
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #599922

skoglol wrote:There are two sides to this, I think.

1: People who play adminned while there are one or more observed admins online.
Fuck you, stop. I have been vocal about this in the past as well, there is no reason to do this unless you are supporting a new trial admin or some shit. You are making me have to filter my asay communication because I KNOW you can read it, and that's dumb.
This is already against policy admins shouldn't be doing this. If another admin comes on and says "hey" you say "sucker" and deadmin . Happens to me all the time as the incoming admin.

I guess you and the other coders gotta knock on the doors of mr Straw and Mann in search of arguments that aren't just re-stating your hypothesis and calling it an argument tho.


like holy shit did someone shit on cobbys cereal like hes going completely chainsaw in this thread
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There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cobby » #599933

@pkp you would be correct on the obvious stuff but for more subtle traitors you would have to have an admin tell you or stalk someone, which makes you unable to look at other things in the world. Even then, some actions aren’t visible to deadchat in the same way as asay which is why I find it a bit odd to compare them. Well that and the obvious fact you still get drip fed this info when you’re back in the game.

@rave I would agree the relay system could be improved, I don’t agree with some obsession to keep a name in adminwho at all times which is unhealthy to have. I mean I guess I kinda agree since my suggestion is you’re free to admin+play so long as you’ve made sure a ping to have someone cover has been made but again it should be a last resort.

@dorsi just frustrated cuz op was too overzealous so it seems like no one can have a conversation about a reasonable measurement. Also we agree about “while another admin is on” but it seems to keep sliding back to “well I wanna talk to my admin bros” by a few different people so the conversation won’t ever end. Just a few posts up we have a trainer saying they want to play while training their candidate or watching them!

It just seems weird why there’s so much pushback to a sensible option of “only do it as needed and provide the ideal ping you wish the relay would have before double-trouble” if the issue wasn’t to playmin while other admins were on, or for the concept in general. Should always be following CYA (cover your butt) and risking your integrity to come into question when we have a nearly foolproof method (aka only playmin when you MUST) seems like the issue is being downplayed.

Like players and deadchat, we should cut off the additional information as soon as you popped back into the body once again. It can be done manually (no config enforcement) in the instance of omegalow pop and no other is coming to pick you up or for an event. We shouldn’t have to twist arms for admins to make an effort to play with integrity, and by that I mean not expose themselves to continuous information that may (from the accounts here seems like it does quite a bit) affect their play experience.
Last edited by Cobby on Tue May 11, 2021 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Vekter » #599935

Armhulen wrote:
Vekter wrote:How would this affect if I put myself in a body during a round for an event/testing something?
I remember talked about this earlier not in here and my thoughts were that events are cool and fine, ditto for testing stuff on like, centcom or whatever. (though any role that has conflict with the station should really be given to a player, not an admin)
But how does the game differentiate between the two? Will it not trigger if I just put myself in a body? What's to keep me from just making a body and slapping myself on the station?
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

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PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
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[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #599936

Cobby wrote: @dorsi just frustrated cuz op was too overzealous so it seems like no one can have a conversation about a reasonable measurement. Also we agree about “while another admin is on” but it seems to keep sliding back to “well I wanna talk to my admin bros” by a few different people so the conversation won’t ever end. Just a few posts up we have a trainer saying they want to play while training their candidate or watching them!

It just seems weird why there’s so much pushback to a sensible option of “only do it as needed and provide the ideal ping you wish the relay would have before double-trouble” if the issue wasn’t to playmin while other admins were on, or for the concept in general. Should always be following CYA (cover your butt) and risking your integrity to come into question when we have a nearly foolproof method (aka only playmin when you MUST) seems like the issue is being downplayed.

Like players and deadchat, we should cut off the additional information as soon as you popped back into the body once again. It can be done manually (no config enforcement) in the instance of omegalow pop and no other is coming to pick you up. We shouldn’t have to twist arms for admins to make an effort to play with integrity, and by that I mean not expose themselves to continuous information that may (from the accounts here seems like it does quite a bit) affect their play experience.
Guess its just hard to take you seriously while you're running around ranting about admins pressing check antags (logs and alerted btw) to poison the round and going on and on about how anyone who wants to both play and provide admin coverage is a burned out husk who's the *real* problem, not burned-out ex-admins trying to stir trouble by appealing to imaginary scenarios in the policy forum because its been too long since we had an actual juicy crisis to opine about due to good management.
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kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cobby » #599937

A config based approach would be doodoo because there are valid instances of playmin.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cobby » #599939

Um I still play (right now we do a lil path of exiling tho) and admin and so do others like timber and maybe even arm, I’ve isolated the conversation to this thread (I don’t think I’ve even brought it up to any degree on discord), and the only time I’ve suggested that people were burning themselves out was when they believe they simply can’t leave adminwho empty even if it means they now have to affect their current desire to just play the game normally. I can say this because it’s from experience, not because i just hate all the young whippersnappers or whatever. With your previous activity compared to now I’m surprised you don’t agree that’s not an ideal way to approach the game.

If you think me asking a simple “hey we should only playmin when we need to and make an effort to get off it asap, here’s why” and expanding upon the discussion entirely localized within the thread where that’s the main subject is somehow stirring drama and running around ranting, idk what to tell you except I would be interested to see the mental imagery you’ve embellished my posts with, sounds very villainous!
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by wubli » #599942

Nabski wrote: Don't read adminbus while playing is a new one to me, when did that come about and why?
Because someone might be talking about a ticket related to the round, giving you meta-information.
Misdoubtful wrote: literally everything they asked
I have these questions too. I honestly don't see what purpose this would serve. We are biased because we are human, there is no way around it - but occasionally adminning while playing makes it fun and less likely to burn you out. You help people and have fun with the game while getting as uninvolved as possible. I would still like to read what issues have we had with this that don't involve people from years ago that aren't even admins anymore.

As a side note, I don't agree with adminning and playing EVERY time. And adminning while playing means that yes, you have to admin, even if you are engaged with what you are doing in-game.

"This is not about trust" has been repeated a lot here, but it is, for players and admins. Ghosts exists because staying out of the round completely, not being able to know what happened afterwards, would be extremely boring. You are trusted not to use any of the information you gain when you are dead. And, *again*, when you get deconverted from a team antag, you have to pretend not to know who is part of it. Ghosts get a LOT of information - maybe not as much as admins do, but enough to ruin a round with meta-knowledge.

Why did this thread come to existence? What happened exactly that is making us having a talk and headmin policy on it? Has anyone abused this recently? Is it worth it to prohibit this for everyone without exception because of things that happened years ago, or a single instance recently?

By the way, admins get a log every time a xeno egg spawns in Science, even before the round starts. So nothing stops me from rolling Scientist because I want to mess around with the egg, and it's information that I gained because I am an admin. Might want to fix this or ignore it because I do not believe it's a huge deal, but worth mentioning. When I log in to play, sometimes I alt tab while the waiting for BYOND to play its funny ad, and when I'm in I read something from deadchat that kinda spoils the round. I simply ignore it, deadmin, and go into the game.

It's impossible to not be biased *at all* by the information you got as an admin or as a ghost, yes. But not enough that we have removed ghosts - despite having had issues with people using this information when coming back to life.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Nabski » #599943

I just remembered the new fancy chat exists where you can have a separate tabs for different kinds of chat. My personal set up is these 4 tabs.
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Game - Admins - Only what I can see (good for alt tabbing and not checking the radio) - OOC (because OOC is trash 90% of the time and I don't wanna see it while playing)

Is this feature not useful to admin and not have to see when an egg spawns spawns or where bombs go off or when events trigger. It literally has a "admin chat" section so you don't have to read admin chat while adminning and playing.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by RaveRadbury » #599944

Nabski wrote:I just remembered the new fancy chat exists where you can have a separate tabs for different kinds of chat. My personal set up is these 4 tabs.
Image
Game - Admins - Only what I can see (good for alt tabbing and not checking the radio) - OOC (because OOC is trash 90% of the time and I don't wanna see it while playing)

Is this feature not useful to admin and not have to see when an egg spawns spawns or where bombs go off or when events trigger. It literally has a "admin chat" section so you don't have to read admin chat while adminning and playing.
A lot of chat was unfiltered or going to weird areas, there was a recent PR that might have fixed this, but up until that point it wasn't an effective solution.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Nabski » #599945

Dang.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Armhulen » #599951

oranges wrote:I play
hahahahahahahahaha
Nabski wrote:Dang.
okay, but if it got patched up that would be an unironically nice thing to at least soften the issue. doesn't really stop the whole blocking-no-admins relay, unfortunately. if we had a manual toggle for "i should not be considered an active admin as far as relay is concerned" so other admins come online that would be nice. most codefied you can really even get for that would be to have relay not consider you if your mind has a role (admin spawned humans don't usually have roles, roles are given to job spawns and antag spawns (which the latter you really should not be adminning as))
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by MrAlphonzo » #599967

skoglol wrote: This is why I call it an obsession. You dont consider it an option to keep playing the same amount if you cannot be adminned at the same time. You are prioritizing being an admin before being a player, and this is also what will inevitably happen if you admin while playing. Being adminned 100% of the time will also contribute heavily to admin burnout.
No, you fucking idiot. If we can only do one or the other, that means we're going to do less of both. That is how time works.

Regardless of how much you insist we have some obsession over being adminned 24/7, despite multiple staff and the host himself telling you "This is what makes the job fun.", I'm not going to carve extra time out of my day to play more or admin more to satisfy some imaginary quota you insist I have in my head.
skoglol wrote: Is there a reason you as an admin are unable to have fun in the game or while adminning if you have to wait until the round is over to discuss round events with a player/admin in that round? This is what normal players do, because otherwise they would be breaking our rules. Could you maybe just PM this person on discord if you wanted to talk about that cool thing that happened to you today instead of using ASAY?
I never said the game wasn't fun, or that adminning wasn't fun. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Let me spell it out for you, since apparently I've been speaking French.

Sitting and waiting for my god damn plants to grow in my hydroponics trays + kicking back with other staff + talking to members of the community in deadchat + being readily available to give a second opinion or help out when lots of tickets come in = mmmmm, good time, unique experience.
skoglol wrote: I understand that change like this is hard when you are set in your ways, but most of the times it is for the better.
Don't fucking patronize me.
Timberpoes wrote: Using metaknowledge to act like you don't have metaknowledge is still using metaknowledge.
This is how people play when they find out someone is a traitor while they're dead and then get revived you jackass.

This "you're poisoning the round argument" is so god damn stupid. Do we get information about the round in ways the players don't? Sure. But it doesn't fucking matter, because you still end up in the exact same scenario.

You find out Lulz McRobusto is a traitor through him ahelping "How do I use my syndicate pda", or you orbit someone who died while you're waiting to get revived and you see Lulz McRobusto covered in blood with a double energy sword saying "Sorry, you were my target."

It doesn't fucking matter how you found out Lulz McRobusto is a traitor, because, if you get stuck in a room with Lulz McRobusto, you're still going to be in the exact same scenario.


Forcing this inane "higher than thou" admin morality on the rest of staff is exactly why people burnout. If you want to admin with a giant stick up your ass, fine, I'm not your boss. But stop trying to force it on everyone else.
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wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
oranges wrote:
Misdoubtful wrote:We're all friends here.
What fucking planet are you living on
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by RaveRadbury » #599972

Alphonzo makes a solid point that the round is poisoned for dead players constantly and it's not something we panic over.

It's not a big deal, it happens. We're all adults, we're expected to act as if we weren't posioned. It's fine.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by oranges » #599982

I will block any change made in this direction as I said.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Cobby » #600009

My assumption would be it’s entirely policy-driven, I would NOT agree with any forced deadminning from a code pov.

The poisoning the round argument I can agree with in that we hold a similar expectation with players who abide by this fairly well, but again we still cut the line when players no longer need the info so they aren’t tempted to use the info regardless of how we trust particular individuals. We don’t give people cult chat after they’ve been decoverted for example, and I think that line of reasoning should by synonymous with why playmins should min the ‘min portion.

At this point though I think everyone is saying what either they or someone else said earlier.,
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by cacogen » #600015

oranges wrote:I play while adminned so as long as I'm headcoder this will never be a config
if your latency is anything like mine combat must be like wading through a swamp anyway
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by skoglol » #600018

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
skoglol wrote:There are two sides to this, I think.

1: People who play adminned while there are one or more observed admins online.
Fuck you, stop. I have been vocal about this in the past as well, there is no reason to do this unless you are supporting a new trial admin or some shit. You are making me have to filter my asay communication because I KNOW you can read it, and that's dumb.
This is already against policy admins shouldn't be doing this. If another admin comes on and says "hey" you say "sucker" and deadmin . Happens to me all the time as the incoming admin
I have had playermins get pretty pissy with me when I have told them I didnt like it in the past. It is also not strictly speaking against policy, which is why this thread exists.
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I guess you and the other coders gotta knock on the doors of mr Straw and Mann in search of arguments that aren't just re-stating your hypothesis and calling it an argument tho.
Could you point out how any of what I have said so far is a strawman argument?
Why are you pulling mine and cobbys maintainer role into this? We are both full admins, being capable coders as well should not have any bearing on how you perceive our arguments.
MrAlphonzo wrote:No, you fucking idiot.
Nice.
MrAlphonzo wrote:If we can only do one or the other, that means we're going to do less of both. That is how time works.
I repeat my point that the server will not blow up if you admin less. If we are so thinly stretched on admins that it will, we need to focus on recruitment before you or whoever else is solely holding it together get bored and leave, which is inevitable. Going lower on per-admin hours spent adminning per month is fine, the most important thing should be that admins still get to take ample time to enjoy the game without doing their unpaid babysitting job.
MrAlphonzo wrote:I never said the game wasn't fun, or that adminning wasn't fun. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Actually, you did say that. In this quote you are saying that staying adminned while playing is what makes the job fun, and being unable to be adminned while playing will "take a lot of the fun out of adminning".
MrAlphonzo wrote:I'm not sure why you would leave out the part where I said this policy would take a lot of the fun out of adminning, for the same reasons that Wubli and MSO stated. Where did you get "obsession" from describing what makes the job fun?

If it wasn't clear from the first post I take more issue with people who do not deadmin once other admins come on than the people who view it as a necessity to be solo admin while playing. It should be clear from their responses in this thread that the first group exists, and wish to continue doing the thing they are doing. If they are going to stop doing it, it will be because policy tells them to.
I still think the people who playermin when there are no other admins on should refrain from doing it for the reasons previously stated. It shouldn't be necessary.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #600019

Cobby wrote:My assumption would be it’s entirely policy-driven, I would NOT agree with any forced deadminning from a code pov.
Forced deadminning from a code POV has been merged for like a year now, it's soley not a thing because its turned off as a config
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kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by JusticeGoat » #600027

i said this in discord but we bring people in as admins because we trust them to know what would be best for the server and the game. I see us as not just policy police but pen and paper game masters who help guide the game so everyone at the table/server will have fun, bringing me to the next point yes we get info from admin logs but as long the admin in question does not act on it for themselves and doesn't disrupt the other players in a negative way i see no issue with them playing while admined. I still agree command and security roles should not be admined, but passive jobs that do not require one to pvp should be fine.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by TheMidnghtRose » #600028

I know I am coming into this mess a bit late but I've always considered it as when adminned up and playing. There are two sets of information I have. Information that Admin Me has, and information my IC character has. If a ticket affects what my IC character knows or is involved in said ticket i'll relay the ping to supportbus if I'm the only one up. If its a "Hey remove my antag/I got a question about this mechanic/Help im stuck!/ Is this a bug?" type question I resolve it best I can or try to get them to check the wiki on departments I don't play.

Only times that I'll never admin up unless theres OOC spam is when Silicon/antag/Security because that was a definate policy at some point. If there is OOC spam i'll admin up, toggle OOC off and deadmin. I have deadminning set for a hotkey so its fast to do. If I have to admin up because of a bigger issue that doesnt involve my role, my role gets given to ghosts and I ghost out to deal with it. If there is a issue that is likely to involve me I just supportmin ping. And when I say "If there is a issue that is likely to involve me I just supportmin ping." I dont admin up for that, its only if I see an issue as a player that would be something to ahelp
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by RaveRadbury » #600029

Seeing as we're in a transitionary moment in this conversation I thought it might be worthwhile to provide a visual summary of those who have voiced opinions in this discussion and the salient roles they occupy.

If I have made an error in interpreting your opinion in this discussion please let me know so I can amend it.

Image

Edit: added WineAllWine, corrected Coffee's rank, added qbmax, added BorisVcBorison
Last edited by RaveRadbury on Thu May 13, 2021 5:03 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by WineAllWine » #600031

Hello! If theres a spreadsheet I suddenly want to be involved! I would like it to be known that I agree with almost everything MrAlphonzo said, but maybe I would've put it more politely. Or maybe not, depending on how much I'd had to drink. (So thats a strong against, but I do still think that playermin-ing while there are other admins online needs a good reason)
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Qbmax32 » #600040

ive never seen anything wrong with staying adminned during lowpop and answering tickets about game mechanics n' stuff while playing something chill or low impact like chef or janitor. i think its fine the way it is right now
my admin feedback thread


quotes
Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:02 am Qbmax32 is quite literally one of the dumbest individuals I have ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with. He has zero redeemable traits, and honestly I have to suppress my gag reflex every time he shows up in a conversation.
Malkraz wrote:YES
DRINK THE PISS QB
angelstarri wrote:qbmax is a retard
imsxz wrote:mythic please stop you’ve hit rock bottom and you KEEP DIGGING
deedubya wrote:I'll defend to the death your right to scream "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" on a constant basis, but I'll also equally defend the right of people to call you a fuckin' pillock for doing it.
datorangebottle wrote:what, not having to act like customer service in a volunteer customer service position?

Here's a rebuttal: you're literally in a customer service slash celebrity position. Volunteer or not.
Malkraz wrote:can you stop posting this shit
Nalzul wrote:Fuck Blob (can you imagine how hot it would be to be gangbanged by a bunch of blobbernauts, the blob, and spores)
Wyzack wrote:qbmax your pathetic display of abhorrent burgercraft has brought shame onto the omnivores
Plapatin wrote:i AM the senate
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BorisvcBorison
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:12 pm
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by BorisvcBorison » #600048

I am rather late into this discussion, but having read through it and seen the opinions being thrown around, I personally believe this isn't a major issue, considering we have rules against using metainfo in any way, such as losing on purpose or attacking on purpose, that could easily be applied onto the admins in this situation to create an easy-ish status quo of just not acting on any of the info.
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Misdoubtful
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Misdoubtful » #600058

If an admin was actually doing this and causing problems, cheating, etc. Isn't that already covered by admin conduct anyways?
Don't cheat. Do not use admin powers for your own benefit. Don't use your powers to abuse other players.
Kinda obvious.
Don't be a hypocrite. If you're doing something you'd normally ban someone for doing, you're breaking this.
In regards to using IC meta-info IC.
Its not like its some new concept, so does the wheel actually need to be reinvented here and the boat rocked? Is there something this loose all inclusive tid-bit is missing? Does it need to become an exhaustive list?

I'm also still eager to see some answers to my questions in my last post, outside of those in this one.
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Agux909
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
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Location: My own head

Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Agux909 » #600070

Also against this. There hasn't been any reasonable point for why this should be made into policy.

If your fellow admins are telling you it's easier, funnier and overall more engaging to admin while playing for them, has it occurred to you that maybe it could be just YOU projecting your own deficiencies in your adminning methods onto others? Maybe it's just you getting burned out. Which means instead of forcing a policy, maybe you should take a break from adminning yourselves, or advise those who you perceive are getting burned out to take a break. But then if they don't want to anyway what can you do? It's their choice, and maybe they're not even burned out, it's just your perception.

Then the arguments turn to it being about "it taints the experience of the round and the admin in question". Fuck that, what a load of BS.

Where's your proof? Where are the players complaining about it? Nowhere, all this is is just a big hypothetical, nothing more. If an admin abuses their meta-knowledge and powers to negatively impact the round, it's gonna catch up to them sooner or later, but it will be a particular case. If they get scot free because nobody notices it then well played I guess. Why should anyone care if it wasn't noticeable enough to impact the round for the rest of the players? This is some fucking phantom menace level of thinking.

What is it you're fighting for here? The fuck are you trying to solve? Potential things that may or may not be a problem even though if they really were one, there are already methods for dealing with them?

Like c'mon guys this isn't the best bandwagon to hop on, really. Just live and let your fellow admins live, please.
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mindstormy
In-Game Admin
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:59 pm
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by mindstormy » #600102

I think making a policy against being an admin while playing is not a good idea.

I personally don't do it, but I also really like observing rounds as a ghost so I don't mind chilling in a ghost and admining.

However, someone said it's not about trust, but I really do think it is. We volunteer our time to help moderate and make tg a better place for folks to play a silly space game. Even without active admin tools or logs the act of being an admin gives us information players do not have access too and it trains us to spot iffy behavior before we use tools to confirm it. So we already have an unfair advantage of sorts when playing the game in general over normal players just due to a better understanding of the systems and tools at play.

I think it would only create more administrative burden for the admins by creating a who watches the watchmen kind of situation and increase admin burnout.

Another question we should ask is, who cares? Do the players care or is this an admin originated request? If it does become a rule will it be code enforced? This would create all kinds of overhead for the coders and I think that is kind of rude to them if we make a policy and dictate they code it.

At the end of the day the job of an admin is to keep the server rolling smoothly, to make sure everyone has a good time and follows the rules.
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wesoda25
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by wesoda25 » #600103

People are getting way too caught up in the semantics of metainfo.

The concern is “poisoning” the round. You won’t be seeing genuine reactions from admins, they’ll tend towards passive ness, which is worse than a normal reaction.

Vs not having any admins online, which I think is far worse for the health of a round than someone acting more passive than normal.

Just make it so that if there is an admin who is observing, you cannot admin and play.
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Coconutwarrior97
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:14 am
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Re: Prevent Admins from adminning while playing

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #600107

We're fine with the status quo, don't admin and play round critical roles like security, deadmin if you end up getting involved in a sticky situation like an escalation fight.
Any incidents of admin misconduct involving playing while adminned should be reported to us or admin complainted, either works, so we can examine it and talk with the administrator involved.

That being said, you're encouraged but not required to @ supportmin to get someone to cover for you when possible so that you can play without having to worry about what information you act on.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Jimmius: Yes.
Naloac: No,I dont think that allowing admins to receive meta info in a constant stream is fair at all. Allowing them to readmin in extreme emergencies is fine or on ghost roles but being directly attached too the station opens to many doors to abuse and I disagree with allowing admins to do so.
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