Banish all nsfw writing and art from the library officially?

[mrmelbert]

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 50#p587052 established policy stating admins can clean up the library of nsfw art from the gallery, but didn't say anything about punishing the illustrators of the art, and didn't say anything about the private / non-public art galleries.

So, I'm here to ask:

- Can admins warn/eventually ban people for repeatedly making nsfw art in the library?
- Is BORDERLINE nsfw art allowed if it's in the secure art gallery (the non-public gallery - the one in the curator's office)? Or is it up to admin discretion?
- Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section? (What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)
- Can admins step in to warn / eventually ban prolific smut authors?

Personally i'm of the opinion all smut should be banished and removed from the library, as it breaks rule 8 of the server and the only reason it's tolerated is because it's "tradition" to keep WGW (or worse) in the shelves for shitposting. I'm aware admins can already remove art and books if they think they're too bad but I'd like established policy on whether this kinda stuff is warnable or bannable.

As of late it seems to have been getting only worse and I think it should be stopped before it continues to develop, since it's pretty sickening stuff.

Thoughts?

[cacogen]

Seems like there's confusion about the purpose of Rule 8. What does it mean by "stuff"? Is it there to ban text and images, or enforce behaviour? To me, it's there to prevent ERP (because of the problems it's created in the past) and sexual harassment. I don't see how humourous books with sexual subject matter like WGW or books that are intended to be arousing (even if they feature player characters, provided the players don't mind) factor into it. It's about how these things are presented to players. Which depends on the situation.

My point is if people want to add their weird sex book to the archive or pixel pornography to the curator's private gallery or read WGW over Common, who does it hurt? If someone's depicting other people's characters and they aren't okay with it or otherwise using these things to harass someone then do something about that.

[Jonathan Gupta]

Seems like there's confusion about the purpose of Rule 8. What does it mean by "stuff"? Is it there to ban text and images, or enforce behaviour? To me, it's there to prevent ERP (because of the problems it's created in the past) and sexual harassment. I don't see how humourous books with sexual subject matter like WGW or books that are intended to be arousing (even if they feature player characters, provided the players don't mind) factor into it. It's about how these things are presented to players. Which depends on the situation.

My point is if people want to add their weird sex book to the archive or pixel pornography to the curator's private gallery or read WGW over Common, who does it hurt? If someone's depicting other people's characters and they aren't okay with it or otherwise using these things to harass someone then do something about that.

someone got permad on bee for posting wgw in the library lmao.

[Bytube]

we should ban it, both because its cringy and also it's really funny watching neckbeards come out of the rafters to complain that they can't read their felinid incest inflation bukkake in-game anymore

[Agux909]

we should ban it, both because its cringy and also it's really funny watching neckbeards come out of the rafters to complain that they can't read their felinid incest inflation bukkake in-game anymore

Keep dreaming, it won't be.

[Bytube]

we should ban it, both because its cringy and also it's really funny watching neckbeards come out of the rafters to complain that they can't read their felinid incest inflation bukkake in-game anymore

Keep dreaming, it won't be.

Wowie I didn't know you could see into the future, can you tell me my fortune?

[Agux909]

we should ban it, both because its cringy and also it's really funny watching neckbeards come out of the rafters to complain that they can't read their felinid incest inflation bukkake in-game anymore

Keep dreaming, it won't be.

Wowie I didn't know you could see into the future, can you tell me my fortune?

You'll read some smut on the library.

[oranges]

we should ban it, both because its cringy and also it's really funny watching neckbeards come out of the rafters to complain that they can't read their felinid incest inflation bukkake in-game anymore

Keep dreaming, it won't be.

[saprasam]

the book about miku frost has left a permanent fold in my brain
i agree

[cacogen]

we should ban it, both because its cringy and also it's really funny watching neckbeards come out of the rafters to complain that they can't read their felinid incest inflation bukkake in-game anymore

yeah this is the reason
not wanting to preserve /tg/station history and culture via wgw and that book about lila desminto and dante smith softspeaking that she was a changeling from like 2011

there are a lot of cool books in there actually, i recorded a couple of rounds as lawyer using the tape recorder in like 2012 that are interesting to read and at times funny
icepacks wrote some haikus and some books about being a hardboiled detective

i'm sure there are more examples of notable literature i don't remember off the top of my head other than people's weird sex books about other people's OCs that they'd be better keeping to themselves
i don't want to lose the funny ones though

it's a shame that the UI is so godawful now, it makes it difficult to browse the catalogue

[sinfulbliss]

Behind every rule there is a motive for making the rule. It is more useful to ask the question, "does nsfw writing/art go against the motive of rule 8?" rather than the question, "does nfsw writing/art go against rule 8?" For example, suppose there is a rule 12 that states "no murderboning is allowed as non-antag." Under the explicit wording, this would disallow a player from killing multiple cultists. But clearly the motive is simply to protect non-antags from being griefed. This is why the motive should be used, as it's deeper than the rule. The rule is just an expression of the motive in writing.

If the motive of rule 8 is to prevent people from ERP'ing, then nsfw writing/art doesn't fall under the motive of the rule, even if it would fall under the way it is explicitly worded. So I guess the question is, what is the motive behind preventing erotic/creepy stuff? Is it to prevent ERP explicitly, is it to protect innocent eyes from 8-bit porn, is it to prevent players from having weird ERP sessions through library books?

The motive behind the rule should be clarified at which point this issue could be easily resolved.

[Agux909]

In before a lizard called Is-a-Dick is banned for breaking rule 1.

lol

[Bawhoppennn]

It would be exceedingly lame to ban it. Like, what would be the reason? Until we become a pure Christian game server, our 18+ population can handle some poorly written smut if they go out of their way looking for it. Maybe the very kinda explicit pixel art in the public gallery, though if it's in the private gallery that's definitely fine. It's effectively part of the role as librarian/curator to toe the line with a bit of indecent materials, hence the culture of WGW and the Lusty Xenomaid.

Rule 8 clearly is just to ban ERP, not something like this that hasn't ever been a problem until now.
As was said by others, we do not need to sanitize everything. This is a fun game for adults, and this is like the least concern possible towards offending anyone.

[Bytube]

It would be exceedingly lame to ban it. Like, what would be the reason? Until we become a pure Christian game server, our 18+ population can handle some poorly written smut if they go out of their way looking for it. Maybe the very kinda explicit pixel art in the public gallery, though if it's in the private gallery that's definitely fine. It's effectively part of the role as librarian/curator to toe the line with a bit of indecent materials, hence the culture of WGW and the Lusty Xenomaid.

Rule 8 clearly is just to ban ERP, not something like this that hasn't ever been a problem until now.
As was said by others, we do not need to sanitize everything. This is a fun game for adults, and this is like the least concern possible towards offending anyone.

found the felinid incest inflation bukkake reader ????

[cacogen]

The motive behind the rule should be clarified at which point this issue could be easily resolved.

yeah this is exactly what I said except the thread didn't get any replies when i said it holy fucking shit

Seems like there's confusion about the purpose of Rule 8. What does it mean by "stuff"?

[sinfulbliss]

Seems like there's confusion about the purpose of Rule 8. What does it mean by "stuff"?

First sentence is on the ball. We want the end, the purpose, of the rule, not just "hurr durr according to THIS rule, hugging a player over 6 times is creepy and therefore banned."

Getting at the purpose/end/motive of the rule itself is much more useful. Pretty sure that's to prevent actual, live, dorms 4, uncut ERP as many have stated.

Also I haven't even read a book at the library or gone into library for anything except baseball bats FYI. I'm just arguing the point because.

[cacogen]

8. Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed.
No form of erotic roleplay is allowed on the servers, including things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants.

Using a vague word like stuff makes it unclear what erotic or creepy things it's banning. The wording in general could be improved. I would have it say "erotic or creepy sexual behaviour is not allowed. No form of sexual behaviour is allowed on the servers, especially things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants." And then I would specify this doesn't include the content of erotic books provided any characters or players named consent; paintings, provided they're in the private gallery; or erotic books read out loud provided it's done in a humourous context such as reading it over Common. Some players will still cry about hearing WGW over Common but these people are pussies who should be ignored. If somebody is cornering you and reading a sex book to you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable then you should adminhelp that because even if they're attempting to be funny they're failing at it.

[RaveRadbury]

If you guys really want to get into what the intent of the rule was when it was made this thread might give you some insight.

[Cobby]

It’s vague on purpose because the intent is to be all encompassing if you read the first post of the thread rave linked (don’t bother reading the next several pages it’s just peanut gallery about how people actually efucking was fine and people were just being prudes)

[Pandarsenic]

If you guys really want to get into what the intent of the rule was when it was made this thread might give you some insight.

If we go by the admin posts and replies, at least when I jumped to the end, the reason seems to have settled on

"because the ERP metabuddies [like the infamous Smiths] will roll together and if you want to scrap with one of them you end up in a fight with all of them." (does not apply here)

+

"Most people who want it to stay want it because they want to laugh at it, funny tg lewd memes" (very much applies here)

And in that light, I guess what I'd say is "Sure, but who's going to read the ENTIRE LIBRARY and curate new entries?"

[MrAlphonzo]

I was in the process of taking up curation of the library, both paintings and books, in Hugbug's stead after his departure but I've been on a leave of absence for the last few weeks.

Any semblance of precedent we have on handling anything in the library, be it painting or book, is that is simply up to an administrator's discretion. I was in the process of sifting through the entirety of the library database to work with Coconut on fleshing out our policies on content in the library, but, as I said, I've been on leave. I do still intend to follow through on that task, in the near future.

What has been removed consistently and what I've been trying to expand upon without being overzealous is low effort entries, cloned entries, or smut that is so outright disgusting it even makes me sick. And that is not an easy thing to do.

My thoughts on paintings, not to say that pixelated moth breasts are on the same level of works as one of Picasso's masterpieces (they totally are on the same level), art is still art, and unless its something totally outlandish like some catgirl getting an entire Walmart's supply of "Oh Boy, Syrup!" dumped on them, I'd say it should be left as what it is, art. I go to museums regularly, and there are, in fact, naked women in many paintings. Unless its low effort circles with dots in the middle duct taped onto a stick figure, and you can actually appreciate the talent that went into the pixelart COUGH Onule's art being removed was criminal COUGH, I don't see an issue with it.

Smut written with someone's character without their permission does not seem like a curation issue and falls directly under Rule 8. At least, in my perspective.

[TheFinalPotato]

Is there anything you'd find helpful for moderating the library? I hesitate to add a "access panel" or something in game because of the potential risks, but it would allow us to extend extra functionality without bugging ned

[ArcaneDefence]

Is there anything you'd find helpful for moderating the library?

The ability to reclassify books into appropriate categories, literally anything that would reduce the burden to remove duplicate entries, and the ability to squash multiple volume entries into a single book

[Bytube]

COUGH Onule's art being removed was criminal COUGH

to be fair that was obviously made with the intent to arouse erotically, which is by definition porn

unlike say the statue of Venus where if you jack off to it you'll get thrown out of the art museum

[MrAlphonzo]

Is there anything you'd find helpful for moderating the library?

The ability to reclassify books into appropriate categories, literally anything that would reduce the burden to remove duplicate entries, and the ability to squash multiple volume entries into a single book

Throw in the library computer rejecting books that don't have a title and I'd say thats a solid foundation.

[Hornygranny]

When we made the decision to ban ERP, I had two primary concerns. The first, as it should always be in that position, is gameplay. We had a recurring problem of certain players abandoning their responsibilities to ERP, and that pattern of behavior was a short road to metabuddy cliques. There may no longer be anyone with a long enough memory to recall this, but a decade ago, I was punished for admin abusing a player who spent a literal hour having sex with the mime as the solo changeling, in the original incarnation of the then relatively new game mode, after I had determined it was no longer mathematically possible for him to win, given the imminent arrival of the shuttle.

The second was consent. While most players were content to beat each other to death in wholesome robust combat, we periodically had incidents in which some subjected others to rape roleplay, or other unwanted sexual and/or creepy behavior, including, if memory serves, the aforementioned changeling player. While ERP participants generally did seek some form of privacy as to continue uninterrupted, the nature of the game was that there would be other players, alive or dead, who could see those messages, and we didn't feel that the ERP participants should be catered to over everyone else. The library does contain plenty of adult books, but they were never to my knowledge used to disturb other players, and so they were never subject to much scrutiny.

While such a serious discussion on 2D spaceman sex may seem somewhat silly, I felt at the time that our decision was important enough to merit the controversy it caused, and over time proved to be the right choice. It's no longer my place after years of absence to say specifically what is best for the game, but I encourage the team to apply the same principles we did then when considering this or any ruling.

[Pandarsenic]

Oh, heya HG. Been a while.

I would also point to the 'choice to see it or not' thing, book clubs making fun of them are the only time ghosts might be forced to see it, but in my experience there's much less Ghost Chat activity these days than there was back then.

There's no real way to force lewd books on people except to read it yourself, which is already against the rules + you don't need them in the library for that anyway, or to print a shitload of them and... harass people with the titles?? Which is pretty ignorable.

[cacogen]

Sexy granny himself returns to comment on ERP

[nianjiilical]

without getting too into the points that have already been raised, i dont think dumb smut should be completely banned, but i do think that if someone finds their character is being written into ic porn and they dont want it they should absolutely be able to ask for it to be removed

[Cobby]

The cheap laugh you get after someone writes a ironic erp book that you then never touch again (if you looked at in the first place) seems very inconsequential. Not to say those can’t be kept in but i don’t think we should try to bend over backwards to ensure their stay if we can’t generate a rule that navigates through when a book no longer becomes ironic.

Assuming headmins want to pursue this in the first place

[Stickymayhem]

When we made the decision to ban ERP, I had two primary concerns. The first, as it should always be in that position, is gameplay. We had a recurring problem of certain players abandoning their responsibilities to ERP, and that pattern of behavior was a short road to metabuddy cliques. There may no longer be anyone with a long enough memory to recall this, but a decade ago, I was punished for admin abusing a player who spent a literal hour having sex with the mime as the solo changeling, in the original incarnation of the then relatively new game mode, after I had determined it was no longer mathematically possible for him to win, given the imminent arrival of the shuttle.

The second was consent. While most players were content to beat each other to death in wholesome robust combat, we periodically had incidents in which some subjected others to rape roleplay, or other unwanted sexual and/or creepy behavior, including, if memory serves, the aforementioned changeling player. While ERP participants generally did seek some form of privacy as to continue uninterrupted, the nature of the game was that there would be other players, alive or dead, who could see those messages, and we didn't feel that the ERP participants should be catered to over everyone else. The library does contain plenty of adult books, but they were never to my knowledge used to disturb other players, and so they were never subject to much scrutiny.

While such a serious discussion on 2D spaceman sex may seem somewhat silly, I felt at the time that our decision was important enough to merit the controversy it caused, and over time proved to be the right choice. It's no longer my place after years of absence to say specifically what is best for the game, but I encourage the team to apply the same principles we did then when considering this or any ruling.

change your name to antihornygranny now

[Misdoubtful]

Can we just stop trying to make this something it isn't that'd be like super cool of us to just, not.

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

If you have to question if something isn't in the spirit of the rules it probably isn't, and it's why rules that revolve around spirit work so well. They adapt with social norms.

Remember when everyone started reading and talking about fifty shades of grey? Remember when everyone started talking about only fans? Spend more than five minutes on Tiktok. Let's get a grip on what we perceive is pure enough for us, because we're all kinda freaks or living under a rock. I'm not about to paint shitty smut fanfiction library books that's really just comedy or satire content as being the devil like I'm living in the year 1700 literally who cares.

[sinfulbliss]

[youtube]SAZYTNlkYk8[/youtube]

[Jonathan Gupta]

Can we just stop trying to make this something it isn't that'd be like super cool of us to just, not.

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

If you have to question if something isn't in the spirit of the rules it probably isn't, and it's why rules that revolve around spirit work so well. They adapt with social norms.

Remember when everyone started reading and talking about fifty shades of grey? Remember when everyone started talking about only fans? Spend more than five minutes on Tiktok. Let's get a grip on what we perceive is pure enough for us, because we're all kinda freaks or living under a rock. I'm not about to paint shitty smut fanfiction library books that's really just comedy or satire content as being the devil like I'm living in the year 1700 literally who cares.

when you see the smut post I'm going to make your going to edit this post.

[Bytube]

Can we just stop trying to make this something it isn't that'd be like super cool of us to just, not.

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

If you have to question if something isn't in the spirit of the rules it probably isn't, and it's why rules that revolve around spirit work so well. They adapt with social norms.

Remember when everyone started reading and talking about fifty shades of grey? Remember when everyone started talking about only fans? Spend more than five minutes on Tiktok. Let's get a grip on what we perceive is pure enough for us, because we're all kinda freaks or living under a rock. I'm not about to paint shitty smut fanfiction library books that's really just comedy or satire content as being the devil like I'm living in the year 1700 literally who cares.

Of course the Manuelmin is ok with erotic content ????

[Misdoubtful]

Can we just stop trying to make this something it isn't that'd be like super cool of us to just, not.

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

If you have to question if something isn't in the spirit of the rules it probably isn't, and it's why rules that revolve around spirit work so well. They adapt with social norms.

Remember when everyone started reading and talking about fifty shades of grey? Remember when everyone started talking about only fans? Spend more than five minutes on Tiktok. Let's get a grip on what we perceive is pure enough for us, because we're all kinda freaks or living under a rock. I'm not about to paint shitty smut fanfiction library books that's really just comedy or satire content as being the devil like I'm living in the year 1700 literally who cares.

Of course the Manuelmin is ok with erotic content ????

I don't even read fanfictions, ERP or smut to begin with. ?

[sinfulbliss]

Can we just stop trying to make this something it isn't that'd be like super cool of us to just, not.

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

If you have to question if something isn't in the spirit of the rules it probably isn't, and it's why rules that revolve around spirit work so well. They adapt with social norms.

Remember when everyone started reading and talking about fifty shades of grey? Remember when everyone started talking about only fans? Spend more than five minutes on Tiktok. Let's get a grip on what we perceive is pure enough for us, because we're all kinda freaks or living under a rock. I'm not about to paint shitty smut fanfiction library books that's really just comedy or satire content as being the devil like I'm living in the year 1700 literally who cares.

Of course the Manuelmin is ok with erotic content ????

I don't even read fanfictions, ERP or smut to begin with. ?

Literally same, I have no personal investment in the library. It just seems cringe to ban it because OH GOD IT'S NSFW MUH RULE 8. Rule 8 was made for ERP specifically, stated by the man who made Rule 8 himself, because ERP was getting in the way of the flow of the game. I don't think the library has even come close to disrupting the flow of the game, so this would just be an overextension of rule 8. It could definitely be reworded though to reflect its original purpose better.

[cacogen]

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

It's more trying to separate what library books with sexual content should be covered by Rule 8 and which shouldn't. If we accept that Rule 8 is meant to cover ERP and sexual harassment, then clearly things like WGW are fine. But what about books that involve player characters? Should the consensual books be banned as a form of ERP? Or should only the non-consensual books be banned, as a form of harassment? And how should this be enforced? Should admins wait until somebody complains, or should the library books be actively curated somehow? Does this involve going through the entire archive, which must be formidably large at this point, or only curating new books? And how would that work? And I do think the lack of specific wording on Rule 8 has lead to confusion over what it's supposed to cover regarding this issue, whether people want to engage with me on that or not.

[sinfulbliss]

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

It's more trying to separate what library books with sexual content should be covered by Rule 8 and which shouldn't. If we accept that Rule 8 is meant to cover ERP and sexual harassment, then clearly things like WGW are fine. But what about books that involve player characters? Should the consensual books be banned as a form of ERP? Or should only the non-consensual books be banned, as a form of harassment? And how should this be enforced? Should admins wait until somebody complains, or should the library books be actively curated somehow? Does this involve going through the entire archive, which must be formidably large at this point, or only curating new books? And how would that work? And I do think the lack of specific wording on Rule 8 has lead to confusion over what it's supposed to cover regarding this issue, whether people want to engage with me on that or not.

i think commonsense solution would be:
- consensual books shouldn't be banned because they don't interrupt the flow of the game like real ERP was banned for doing (i mean unless people start reading books together in dorms 4 or some weird shit like that in which case it might start to cross into real ERP)
- nonconsensual ERP books should be banned via ahelp, if no one cares enough to ahelp then it must not be important enough. also forcing admins to moderate the library retroactively sounds like a problem so this would be better

[BorisvcBorison]

BURN EVERY BOOK, READING IS REVISONIST AND SHOULD BE REPLACED WITH ONLY HEADMIN-APPROVED PICTURES

[Misdoubtful]

This whole debate of stuff like 'whats porn' is just straight off kilter.

It's more trying to separate what library books with sexual content should be covered by Rule 8 and which shouldn't. If we accept that Rule 8 is meant to cover ERP and sexual harassment, then clearly things like WGW are fine. But what about books that involve player characters? Should the consensual books be banned as a form of ERP? Or should only the non-consensual books be banned, as a form of harassment? And how should this be enforced? Should admins wait until somebody complains, or should the library books be actively curated somehow? Does this involve going through the entire archive, which must be formidably large at this point, or only curating new books? And how would that work? And I do think the lack of specific wording on Rule 8 has lead to confusion over what it's supposed to cover regarding this issue, whether people want to engage with me on that or not.

i think commonsense solution would be:
- consensual books shouldn't be banned because they don't interrupt the flow of the game like real ERP was banned for doing (i mean unless people start reading books together in dorms 4 or some weird shit like that in which case it might start to cross into real ERP)
- nonconsensual ERP books should be banned via ahelp, if no one cares enough to ahelp then it must not be important enough. also forcing admins to moderate the library retroactively sounds like a problem so this would be better

As long as we aren't trying to whitewash morality and the reality of things here, I'd be happy with whatever the outcome is. Targeting over the top / harassing material is always a sound solution.

[Cobby]

I disagree that books that involve 2 player characters dont impact the game. It's certainly different in the sense that these people arent going out of their way to typefuck, but I know we have had people who would go out of their way to typefuck smut to submit to the library and that is fairly synonymous considering both are pulling your character away from the station to do this. It's just not as obvious because you as the ghost (or even an admin) aren't seeing them go into these huge diatribes with ghost ears. Just because its out of sight doesnt mean its not a problem.

My particular concern is the more long term impact of metafriendships that get solidified when you make a "totally joking" smut writing of 2 PCs. As it is now its a bit of a grey area since the rules do not agree with what we allow enforcement wise, I believe making it clear that you can oh-so-carefully write smut books about your PC and someone elses just creeps back to the other obnoxious aspect of what got ERP banned in the first place which was the metarelationships impacting the game. Its not surprising that the lizard who last round fucked the security officer in cabin 2 despite being more likely to be the criminal is getting released. We've also seen this behavior impact OOC scenarios too, even resulting to attempts at doxxing a user.

Call me anti-fun but im 100% against any form of unironic horny in the space game. There are servers that offer that and even then im willing to bet theres a lot of drama surrounding those relationships, and I dont want that especially seeing the impact it has in and out of the game (on this community no less). Again, I have very little qualms with stupid smut like WGW or Lusty Xeno Maid, but I do take issue with (you) or a third party writing about sexual adventures between 2 player characters and that being solidified within the game.

[Misdoubtful]

Yeah nah I'm against things getting weirdly over the top between people with writing being public, I'm just not trying to crusade against traditionally bad and smutty, like wgw.

If that's someone's jam then cool not my place to judge, but keep private matters in private places, please.

[Pandarsenic]

I know we have had people who would go out of their way to typefuck smut to submit to the library and that is fairly synonymous considering both are pulling your character away from the station to do this. It's just not as obvious because you as the ghost (or even an admin) aren't seeing them go into these huge diatribes with ghost ears. Just because its out of sight doesnt mean its not a problem.

I see. Who are these people and how have you dealt with them?

My particular concern is the more long term impact of metafriendships that get solidified when you make a "totally joking" smut writing of 2 PCs. As it is now its a bit of a grey area since the rules do not agree with what we allow enforcement wise, I believe making it clear that you can oh-so-carefully write smut books about your PC and someone elses just creeps back to the other obnoxious aspect of what got ERP banned in the first place which was the metarelationships impacting the game. Its not surprising that the lizard who last round fucked the security officer in cabin 2 despite being more likely to be the criminal is getting released. We've also seen this behavior impact OOC scenarios too, even resulting to attempts at doxxing a user.

As above, can you point to specific people who have been doing this?

I do take issue with (you) or a third party writing about sexual adventures between 2 player characters and that being solidified within the game.

Forgive me for assuming intent, but unless you can point to specific instances of actual players becoming ERP meta-buddies through the library instead of through discord or whatever, it seems like the above is imagining some pretty unlikely scenarios in the name of this, the actual issue.

I would specifically request a combination of:

• a reference to at least one book, to demonstrate that the library was used as the methodology for their ERP or to document it.
• a reference, and preferably logs, to at least one round where administrative action had to be taken against those specific parties for their meta alliance.

If any of this can't be shared publicly to protect the identities of the innocent (or the guilty), I'm sure(?) the headmins would be willing and able to verify the library book's existence and the round references, as seems to be their common thing with information to keep hidden.

Edited for formatting

[saprasam]

put adult books in the abandoned library in delta
it'll be funny

[Cobby]

I would specifically request a combination of:

• a reference to at least one book, to demonstrate that the library was used as the methodology for their ERP or to document it.
• a reference, and preferably logs, to at least one round where administrative action had to be taken against those specific parties for their meta alliance.

If any of this can't be shared publicly to protect the identities of the innocent (or the guilty), I'm sure(?) the headmins would be willing and able to verify the library book's existence and the round references, as seems to be their common thing with information to keep hidden.

Edited for formatting

If you are looking for a round, I dont know it off the top of my head. Funny enough the scenario that prompted the thread that happened ingame but we caught it before it was submitted to the library (2 people were literally making smut books about the other side by side), and one of them even posted in one of these threads saying "look what I caused" or something of that nature. One had abandoned their post to chill in Viro (the other offender was viro obv) and write their smut iirc. I am actually (ill get to it eventually) in the process of going over their activity since theyre well known enough that even deadchat went "yeah they do borderline stuff all the time" when casually bringing up their character(s). Log diving is insufferable tho so maybe ill just cyberstalk them or something.

On top of that, the library is curated at admin discretion and im not sure if deleted = non-recoverable. As of right now i cannot find (i didnt look very hard considering a much more recent scenario prompted the thread) any books that I could correlate to a specific ticket of metafriendship, and havent had one myself. I'm honestly not going to do that for the sake of a policy discussion where the rule itself is already supporting my stance, and the point of policy is to discuss the general acceptancy anyways. Discussing frequency in PD about a generalized action doesnt make sense anyways, as the point of policy is to discuss what to do when the situation arises.

Naturally this does not prevent you from just textfucking outside of the game and at the end of the day SOME metafriendship is allowed by nature of having persistent relationships, this is just hitting an aspect that will prompt admins "hey these two are a bit too buddy buddy". As of right now and as with nearly all actions that arent inheritently obvious to the victim and dont give a big "WUH OH" to the admins, it can be difficult to track without seeing it personally (which is why the more historical infamous metafriendships got away with doing it I'd imagine), and that usually requires being tipped off. Since these books are "perfectly fine" as-enforced, theyll get deleted and no notes will be handed out that these people are kinda being a bit funny via library. It's partially why Im suggesting hitting a symptom because its a long line of issues we are potentially missing because its ok (heck we have to pull nails to encourage people to admin things that are ok on their own but are disallowed habitually already like greytiding).

Perhaps the elephant in the room is I also find it (being unironic smut books between PCs) weird and especially when we advertise per rule 8 a game without erotic/creepy content I find that to be a good reason to disallow it. Again, there are servers dedicated to erotic content, I shouldnt have to entertain drawing the line in the sand here because people cant resist inserting their horny into the game. Theres not even an IC recourse to this because i dont think you can ICly remove weird books.

Finally, the library books are already not sacred anyways so I could go in right now and delete every actual horny book and theres not much anyone can do to my knowledge except complain until someone adds it to admin policy (again, already against the rules as written to include erotic content). I want to be able to tell people to not do it further and lead into a conversation about making sure your player relationship isnt negatively impacting the game.

TO BE CLEAR I AM ONLY ARGUING AGAINST SMUT BOOKS WHICH INCLUDE 2 PCs, especially those that include themselves. I am not prude enough to where I cant respect "classics" like WGW and LXM and dont have any interest bringing up their validity.

[TheFinalPotato]

I don't think anyone would argue that unironic smut does any good for worldbuilding or getting people to use the library (Though there are other more... persistent issues there). Just like bad smut irl, it's just kinda uncomfortable and cringe if you're not horny as hell

[Jonathan Gupta]

someone got perma banned for adding WGW to bee station libary.

[Vekter]

We are, at the end of the day, an 18+ server.

I don't see a real reason to remove it, but I do think we should be more vigilant about what gets posted in there.

[Armhulen]

We are, at the end of the day, an 18+ server.

I don't see a real reason to remove it, but I do think we should be more vigilant about what gets posted in there.

Yes we are but we also have don't ask don't tell rules about being underaged and actually a lot of our community is underaged in spite of the rules so realistically we should treat it as such. And remember the thread, we're not removing all art and books, we're just removing the low quality cache of smut.

Also if you check out public bans our most recent ban is "Uploaded a book to the library involving sex with minors. I don't personally care what you get off to as long as it doesn't hurt anyone but this isn't the place for it. Escalated to perma due to rule 8 history."

for me, this is a compelling argument for getting rid of our smut cache of dubious content

[Vekter]

I think if we keep the NSFW content we need to be WAY better about policing it.

Also it's worth noting that the content that player was banned for EXPLICITLY STATED that one of the characters was fourteen.

[Armhulen]

And we still have no idea how much more of that is in our smut database