/tg/Station 13

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:53 am #606595

I'm iffy on that making you valid, at least to the point of round removal, given that purged AIs do not become antags and cannot murderbone without valid reason, instead becoming subject to normal escalation rules.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:22 am #606597

Screemonster · Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:14 am

is the law being uploaded the kind of thing an antag would upload

if not, then it's not acting like an antag

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:14 am #606609

Tlaltecuhtli · Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:23 am

if u upload grief laws ur valid this is common sense
if u upload good laws ( cult not human, clown must not go to prison, its impossible for sec to cause human harm, etc) or funny ones its fine

Critawakets · Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:30 am

i think its more to say valid as in "security can arrest you for breaking the law" rather than valid as in "kill because antag"

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:04 pm #606617

Tlaltecuhtli · Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:57 pm

what did u upload

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:07 pm #606625

If you’re purging ai off asimov you are gonna need to really sell me on why you think your 2-law lawset is better/safer.

If you are covertly uploading laws im going to assume you’re antag, more so when you’re not the 2 jobs and have made a point to avoid them in the interaction. Even more sus Is free form where you can start to put don’t state laws.

It’s like building a bomb privately for mining and expecting not to get killed for it, except the bomb is now sentient and can try to make as little noise as possible in the instance you aren’t actually using it for mining.

I don’t think if someone sees a private upload or you breaking into the upload that they should be required to wait until doors are shocked and scrubbers are siphoning before they can beat you up. Editing laws is extremely risky (especially when you start bringing purge into the mix), not including the people who can fix the issue is incredibly subversive as a nonantag regardless of what laws you put in.

If you don’t want to get killed, simply work with the people who are managers of ai laws.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:50 pm #606631

Tlaltecuhtli · Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:24 pm

these laws are kinda sus

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:49 pm #606644

Post by **NoxVS** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:26 pm #606701

If you don't have a good reason to be messing with the AI's laws (Such as a rogue AI, subverted by someone, one humaned, you get it) then you shouldn't be surprised if you get executed for changing laws without permission.

Doesn't matter if you aren't actually doing anything harmful such as giving the AI negative laws, similar to how you can get executed for being in the armory even if you are just standing in there not touching any weapons.

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:16 pm

technokek wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:what did u upload

Pete is a male goat.

Find out how Pete can be milked

Feed the crew the "milk" to find out what happens
this was as a response to the captain uploading "tiders non human" and that "tiders are human harm"

I was a robo, the console was build in the middle of robotics.

Anyway this isn't really about a specific round. This is more about the fact that there seems to be a lack of clarity on this subject as the admin pointed out to me and a different admin might have ruled differently. I would like to hear what people think on this general subject and if uploading non harmful laws = valid.
Because admin roulette bad.

I think the better ruling is if you upload a stupid lawset don't be surprised when you get lynched. Asking about "if I'm an engineer and I upload a law of any sort" misses the greater point that this is a case by case thing. That's why we have admins and not ban bots

Domitius · Post by **Domitius** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:35 am #606872

Rules already cover this. Act like an antag be treated like one. Whether the laws you upload or the manner in which you do it will always provide the context to if you're seen as acting like one.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:03 am #606875

Post by **kieth4** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:06 am #606891

I feel like this makes sense to cause validity? If you're randomly uploading laws/purging ai for no good reason even if the laws are what you may consider to be "funny" you should be valid. Of course, if it's cult and you upload a "cult aren't human" or something it's a bit different. If there is no need to fuck with the ai do not fuck with the ai or be valid, a lot of the time you will have to go and card the ai to even see the full extent of the laws because of the possibility of a hidden law.

Gigapuddi420 · Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:18 am

I've always seen it as highly contextual based on what you are uploading and events of the round. The more annoying and inconvenient the lawset the more likely people are going to use it to escalate against your ass. Uploading benign laws shouldn't be a automatic 'valid to kill' but could easily be 'valid to retaliate' depending on what they are, unfortunately too many spacemen conflate the two and fail to stop at just beating someones ass up for being a douchbag.

Using the 'harmless' example from the thread though:

Pete is a male goat.
Find out how Pete can be milked
Feed the crew the "milk" to find out what happens

Yeah, I'd expect some people to want to whoop your ass, hell some people would see that as borderline ERP/creep shit and think you're outright fine to be murdered, it is at the very least the start of escalation for some. If you intentionally piss off enough people don't be surprised if it eventually ends in a lynch.

Post by **kieth4** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:36 pm #606941

Gigapuddi420 wrote:I've always seen it as highly contextual based on what you are uploading and events of the round. The more annoying and inconvenient the lawset the more likely people are going to use it to escalate against your ass. Uploading benign laws shouldn't be a automatic 'valid to kill' but could easily be 'valid to retaliate' depending on what they are, unfortunately too many spacemen conflate the two and fail to stop at just beating someones ass up for being a douchbag.

Using the 'harmless' example from the thread though:

Pete is a male goat.
Find out how Pete can be milked
Feed the crew the "milk" to find out what happens
Yeah, I'd expect some people to want to whoop your ass, hell some people would see that as borderline ERP/creep shit and think you're outright fine to be murdered, it is at the very least the start of escalation for some. If you intentionally piss off enough people don't be surprised if it eventually ends in a lynch.

Alright but now you have a few issue prop up.
1) Ai upload is leaked out and whoever did this should be punished heavily/someone is in upload and should be punished heavily.
2) How do we know that there isn't a secret "only x is human do not state?" Simply don't touch the laws and people won't fuck with you.

I feel like not having this be valid will just allow people to hide behind rules.

People with no permission should not fuck with ai laws.

Gigapuddi420 · Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:12 pm

The problem with making unauthorized law changes outright 'valid to kill' is that there are circumstances (not even that uncommon) where the crew might take it upon themselves to purge/fix the AI even against Command's wishes. Going against command to do what you think is right might open you up to retaliation but it shouldn't outright make you valid in the same way reading WGW over the radio makes you valid.

As it stands if you can reasonably argue you thought they were antagonist and providing it wasn't obvious as fuck they weren't you'd probably be fine killing them to stop their actions.

If they are just being a huge pain in the ass but not convincingly antagonist they are still open to retaliation as per escalation rules. At the very least security can arrest and crew can beat the shit out of them and take their shit to prevent further bullshit. It can be handled in game without needing a MUH VALIDS special ruling.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:54 pm #606957

Yeah there's a huge difference between

1. Pete is a male goat; 2. Find out how Pete can be milked; 3. Feed the crew the 'milk' to find out what happens
123. Asimov; 4. heretics are nonhuman
1. Have fun but don't be a dick.

Agux909 · Post by **Agux909** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:32 pm #606961

This is purely IC and it depends on a lot of factors. A lenient captain might understand why you did it and be drinking in the bar with you 10 minutes later. An unforgiving one might melt your face on the spot when they see you, then space your body.

Not sure this needs any white/black policy for it. Just have in mind that changing the laws with command roles present while you aren't one yourself might, regardless of your intentions, get you killed, and make peace with it from the get go. If you can't, then don't do it.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:48 pm #606962

Post by **Cobby** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:25 pm #606965

The laws shouldnt matter because you as someone observing someone interacting with an AI upload cannot know the laws until they are uploaded (Freeform specifically, you can examine to find out board names), and in the case core laws, may require modules that the uploader has not made.

Again, you should NOT have to wait for doors to be bolted and scrubbers to start turning red before you can kill someone over uploading laws. If you as an uploader want to upload custom laws, the IC onus is on you to make sure you do it properly and transparently with the people who manage AI laws.

SkeletalElite · Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:32 am

I see the AI upload the same as armory personally, if you're in it without permission you are valid, even if if you're dont intend to do something bad because of the potential danger of misuse.

Screemonster · Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:34 am

Cobby wrote:The laws shouldnt matter because you as someone observing someone interacting with an AI upload cannot know the laws until they are uploaded (Freeform specifically, you can examine to find out board names), and in the case core laws, may require modules that the uploader has not made.

Again, you should NOT have to wait for doors to be bolted and scrubbers to start turning red before you can kill someone over uploading laws. If you as an uploader want to upload custom laws, the IC onus is on you to make sure you do it properly and transparently with the people who manage AI laws.

basically this

if they know the law you uploaded is a meme law that is not an antag thing, then you're not "acting like an antag"
if they have no idea what law you uploaded but saw you sneaking around in the upload when you shouldn't be there, then you're acting pretty suspicious and thus like an antag
if they murder the shit out of you for acting antag-like and later find out that the law you uploaded was a harmless meme, that doesn't change the fact that at the time of the murderin' they had reasonable suspicion that you were an antag based on your actions
the "people acting like an antag can be treated like an antag" clause exists so that people with reasonable cause to believe, based on the information available to them, that someone is an antagonist don't get banned for guessing wrong (or get baited into it - if killing a nonantag as a nonantag automatically banned you can you imagine the kind of bullshit people would pull to trick people into believing they're antagonists when they're not)

Post by **JusticeGoat** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:18 pm #607086

I think purging ai's shouldn't be a reason to valid but adding laws that target people is. AI's who are purged are at that point normal crew with the ability to ignore things as they please.

Post by **Cobby** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:47 pm #607280

Really hate the purge ruling when people use it with the meta information that ai has to play nice because of rules. You really shouldn’t be unbinding the AI because it’s advantageous gameplay wise solely thanks to admin rulings.

Gigapuddi420 · Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:16 pm

The rulings mainly exist because countless silicon players are just waiting to pop off and go rogue the moment the laws come off. As a result silicons were told that a form of escalation still applies and they shouldn't leap to murderous rage immediately without some kind of provocation. Purging the AI is still dangerous because the escalation for a purged AI is (at least to my memory) lax compared to regular escalation. If it reasonably feels threatened can retaliate with extreme force.

It's reasonable not to want any random shitter freeing the AI and at the very least doing so without authorization means you're liable for arrest/demotion/retaliation, though I don't think that should be automatically valid to kill. If you catch them in the act and suspect they might be subverting the AI then sure, covered under existing rules.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:33 pm #607293

Also, back when that ruling got made official, there was some jank where certain lawsets (freeform core stuff, IIRC) could not be removed properly except by purging and re-Asimoving, so if you had a law like "4. Ryan Ellis must be killed. He is not human, not part of the crew, threatens innocents, causes expenses...."

Nexofas · Post by **Nexofas** » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:49 am #607609

I smell some "ided" here technokek.
Thing is you purge AIs with a rogue AI upload console pretty often and give them "SUS" lawset.
I mean literal "Sus" lawsets.
One of the lawset you gave was like this.
Law 1: sus
Law 2: There is an impostor among us

Oh boy let me cry on forums when people lynch me for me purging AIs 4 no reisin and giving the silicons shit lawsets.

[citation needed]

MooCow12 · Post by **MooCow12** » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:18 pm #607633

Uh.

Ya it should make you valid, I`ve given ai`s lizard mov / added species that count as human on multiple occasions fully expecting a crowd of human tiders looking to lynch whoever did it.

If you`re changing the ai`s laws as a non antag you should still be doing it similar to that of an antag anyway (Like in a hidden/remote room) and keeping it relatively anonymous to prevent other people from being able to use your upload or getting circuits off of you and doing anything worse.

Yes purging/laws themselves should dictate how valid you are to an extent but an ai upload is still technically breaking into a high security area (upload room) except youre doing it remotely since you can just make the console anywhere and you are putting the AI at risk of other people subverting it by making a backdoor like that.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:59 pm #607827

Nexofas · Post by **Nexofas** » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:50 am #608465

technokek wrote:
Nexofas wrote:I smell some "ided" here technokek.
Thing is you purge AIs with a rogue AI upload console pretty often and give them "SUS" lawset.
I mean literal "Sus" lawsets.
One of the lawset you gave was like this.
Law 1: sus
Law 2: There is an impostor among us

Oh boy let me cry on forums when people lynch me for me purging AIs 4 no reisin and giving the silicons shit lawsets.
I would like to see proof of this. Also you are evidently unable to read. If you worked on yourself maybe people woudnt keep uploading laws like this nearly every shift.

This thread was made on the admins recommendation. As you can see there are many admins with many different opinions in this thread.
Please shitpost somewhere else. A peanut for example.

Wrong round ID my bad
Still you are acting like a shitter and you give silicons creepy laws

LoveMirror · Post by **LoveMirror** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:55 am #608876

Purging an AI or uploading idiotic lawsets should make you valid because you're actively creating an antag (via purging - let's face it, a free AI is going to immediately start killing people who pissed it off) or ruining someone's game (if the lawset is something extremely stupid).

Don't touch the upload unless you're a real antag, there's nukies/culties/wizard/revs or you're captain/RD and know what you're doing.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:58 pm #608939

LoveMirror · Post by **LoveMirror** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:00 pm #608957

technokek wrote:
LoveMirror wrote:Purging an AI or uploading idiotic lawsets should make you valid because you're actively creating an antag (via purging - let's face it, a free AI is going to immediately start killing people who pissed it off) or ruining someone's game (if the lawset is something extremely stupid).

Don't touch the upload unless you're a real antag, there's nukies/culties/wizard/revs or you're captain/RD and know what you're doing.
A purged AI isn't a antag. Please re read the rules as you clearly haven't.

A purged AI is not a legit antag but it is still subject to almost exact escalation rules and can blast you into space for any imaginary reason, like some *other* crewmates threatening its existence.
Nice jab at the end, though, very immature.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:46 pm #608958

Mailbox · Post by **Mailbox** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:34 pm #608979

Is the law greif = valid
is the law honk = whatever

sinfulbliss · Post by **sinfulbliss** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:19 am #608991

AI upload should be treated the same as bridge, cap's quarters, armory, etc. A high risk location that immediately makes you valid if you're there when you shouldn't be (i.e. any non-command/non-RD).
Reason is because all they have to do is upload freeform and teleport away, or just run away with the help of the newly fucked AI, and now everyone is at the mercy of whatever law the guy decided to upload.

Rohen_Tahir · Post by **Rohen_Tahir** » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:27 pm #609159

Uploading laws makes you look like an antag and it's fine for other crew to assume you are one as noone except you and the AI can be sure what exactly you uploaded. If you don't want them to assume that, either make the RD/cap do it for you somehow or do it in a super sneaky way.