Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

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Noodlecat
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Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Noodlecat » #609126

Scenario #1:
Traitor #1 has hijack and can legally murderbone
Traitor #2 does not, same with Traitor #3
They team up and inform each other of their objectives, when the shuttle arrives #2 and #3 aid #1 in murderbone. Is this legal.

Scenario #2:
A traitor buys an syndicate radio key to discover that there are nuke ops planning to attack the station, the traitor and the nuke ops come up with a plan that would result in the traitor (whom has no murderbone objs) murderboneing, said traitor releases a singulo and uses a beacon to lead it off the station after killing most of the crew and destroying sec. Is this legal.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Cobby » #609136

What exception listed in murderbone policy do you think this would fall under?
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Timberpoes » #609140

Scenario 1:
Under LRP Rules
All traitors can murderbone any time they want, no matter what their objectives are. Server Rule 4 applies.

Under MRP Rules
MRP defines murderbone differently. By MRP rules, if people were actively trying to stop you hijacking you could in theory depopulate the entire shuttle without it being murderbone even if you kill 10 or 20 people (and you'd farm a TON of dead chat salt in the process if you succeeded). Similarly, if you kill a single person for no reason other than the fact you're an antag - Congrats, you're a murderboner with a kill count of 1. When dealing with MRP murderbone, adjust your expectations accordingly because it is NOT the same as a classical definition of murderboning.

Murderbone is not allowed on MRP since the Roleplay Rules, particularly RP Rule 5 and by extension the Murderbone chart, place restrictions on antagonists that sit on top of the ordinary server rules.

As a result, hijack is not an MRP murderbone objective. You do not get a murderbone pass for having hijack as a traitor. As a result, traitor 1 is not able to legally murderbone.

The act of hijacking is not a stealth operation and may well end with a kill count, but a kill count in legitimate pursuit of an objective is not murderbone. However, admins will often draw a line between pursuing an objective and engineering your objective to maximise bodycount. Technically this holds true even with hijack, as the hijack objective was changed to require the antag to break into the shuttle's bridge and override the console instead of depopulating the shuttle. Some admins may take issue with an antag that pre-emptively depopulates the entire shuttle before attempting their objective and bwoink/note/ban for it under the RP rules as engineering a high bodycount scenario and thus being murderbone.

As such, the following part of the RP rules comes into play:
Setting up situations where you can evade [murderbone restrictions] ... or otherwise maximizing the kill count without justification is also considered murderboning.
If in doubt, ask the admins online if you plan to depopulate the shuttle. They'll say yes, no or give you restriction to allow you to do it. Different admins have different tolerences for where they feel the murderbone line is on MRP.

With that context understood, other traitors who assist a hijacker will have even less justification for racking up kills without the appropriate chain of IC/RP events to back it up. They should probably ask admins before they embark on a series of actions likely to rack up a body count (such as assisting another traitor with hijacking).

With that being said, traitors get codewords they can use to identify eachother. Traitors working together with other traitors to secure objectives perfectly fine from an RP standpoint as long as they're mindful of the rules and guidelines for MRP antags who aren't murderbone enabled.

Scenario 2:
Under LRP Rules
Lone antags such as traitors are free to do as they please. Server Rule 4 applies.

Under MRP Rules
Traitors are fine to assist nuke ops up to the point where they start to cross over RP Rule 5 and the murderbone rules.

Working with antags that have murderbone status on MRP doesn't elevate you up to murderbone level. RP rules state under the murderboning section:
Feel free to ask an admin to change your objectives or for permission to murderbone in the pursuit of running an interesting gimmick on a non-murderboning role. They might even be willing to make it easier to run!
In this scenario, you would okay your plans with the admins online first. If no admins were online to okay your plans with and you decide to go ahead with them anyway, then any rules you broke in the name of RP you may have to justify later on if someone ahelps your actions, and could face a stern warning, note and/or ban.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by sinfulbliss » #609141

Some admins may take issue with an antag that pre-emptively depopulates the entire shuttle before attempting their objective and bwoink/note/ban for it under the RP rules as engineering a high bodycount scenario and thus being murderbone.
If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel, then surely hijacking alerts the entire crew you are bad and ends up in the possible scenario of having to fight an entire shuttle of people at once. It seems a stretch to say that murderboning with hijack is “setting up a situation” in which you can “evade murderbone restrictions.” The only situation that was set up was you standing next to the console and hijacking - the objective itself. If anything eliminating people before you complete the objective is a necessary evil to maximize your chance of completing your objective.

It also seems like whether or not hijackers are allowed to murderbone should be a matter of policy and not a matter that is decided by individual admins. If the official policy is that it’s disallowed, it seems weird to say an admin can simply let it slide because they personally have a different standard than the rules. Requiring players to ahelp before they murderbone with hijack to see if the admin is one of the ones that will bwoink for it is not an optimal solution.
Last edited by sinfulbliss on Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Agux909 » #609142

sinfulbliss wrote:If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel
It's not.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by sinfulbliss » #609143

Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel
It's not.
Is it disallowed to interfere with a traitor attempting a hijack objective as nonsec due to the restriction on validhunting? Or to help security catch them in the shuttle? If that’s not disallowed then the problem stands.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Agux909 » #609144

sinfulbliss wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel
It's not.
Is it disallowed to interfere with a traitor attempting a hijack objective as nonsec due to the restriction on validhunting? Or to help security catch them in the shuttle? If that’s not disallowed then the problem stands.
It doesn't. If the entire crew of the shuttle is actively interfering with the hijack then the traitor can kill them all and it doesn't count as murderboning, because they're just killing to complete their objective.

People chilling in the passenger section aren't a threat to the traitor's objective, they may not kill them.

All security, people in the shuttle bridge or trying to break in are, so they may kill them.
Last edited by Agux909 on Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Noodlecat » #609145

I feel like hijackers should get murderbone, we have items like the desword and romerol that are effectively murderbone items, yet apparently can never be used on mrp.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by sinfulbliss » #609161

Agux909 wrote:If the entire crew of the shuttle is actively interfering with the hijack then the traitor can kill them all and it doesn't count as murderboning, because they're just killing to complete their objective.

People chilling in the passenger section aren't a threat to the traitor's objective, they may not kill them.

All security, people in the shuttle bridge or trying to break in are, so they may kill them.
My point is just that once people start trying to break into shuttle bridge, you are not gonna be able to kill them all and you'll probably fail the objective. So waiting for that to happen will result in a redtext - murderboning beforehand would be the clear best way to handle it but that's banned on MRP.

The issue in my view is that there is a conflict between the objective and MRP rules. Seems either the objective should just be removed or the MRP rules should be loosened for hijackers. That said I don't play a lot of Manuel, perhaps it would be best to hear from a regular there how often hijackers succeed with their objective in the current state.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Cobby » #609208

The chart is not black/white unless the chart says you can flat out murderbone. If it says you can’t murderbone, then you need for your kills to fall under the exceptions which are

1. Self Defense
2. Collateral
3. Direct Pursuit of Objectives

Exactly how preemptive you’re planning on killing people may fall under the “You are stretching the exemptions out to get leaderboard kills” bit so you are highly encouraged to ask admins how far you can go.

Reminder the murderbone rules exist so that way people are loosely ensured they die as part of a story rather than someone playing to knock everyone out of the game everytime they roll baddie. It doesn’t mean if 50 of 55 people are dead someone’s copping a ban as those 50 deaths could all be a part of the story of the round. Would be a good idea to frame any murderbone scenario into that before deciding the best solution.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Valorium » #609296

sinfulbliss wrote:
Agux909 wrote:If the entire crew of the shuttle is actively interfering with the hijack then the traitor can kill them all and it doesn't count as murderboning, because they're just killing to complete their objective.

People chilling in the passenger section aren't a threat to the traitor's objective, they may not kill them.

All security, people in the shuttle bridge or trying to break in are, so they may kill them.
My point is just that once people start trying to break into shuttle bridge, you are not gonna be able to kill them all and you'll probably fail the objective. So waiting for that to happen will result in a redtext - murderboning beforehand would be the clear best way to handle it but that's banned on MRP.

The issue in my view is that there is a conflict between the objective and MRP rules. Seems either the objective should just be removed or the MRP rules should be loosened for hijackers. That said I don't play a lot of Manuel, perhaps it would be best to hear from a regular there how often hijackers succeed with their objective in the current state.
Giving my input as a Manuel regular, my general perception of hijack is that, with these rules in place, the overwhelming majority of successful hijack attempts only happen because there's no one who cares enough to stop them (you still get greentext if you get hijacked, so who cares if they do it if there's a risk to redtext?) or because the shuttle's so criminally underpopulated that the three people on the thing know they'd get ganked if they tried. In its current state, hijacking on Manuel is basically impossible if murderbone's not allowed and there's any kind of resistance.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by SkeletalElite » #609343

I think whether or not murderbone for hijack is okay on MRP seems beside the point.

The point is whether or not murderbone permission is shared with antags you are working with.

ie.. If you're a traitor working for a malf AI with active doomsday is it okay?
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by terranaut » #609360

Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel
It's not.
Is it disallowed to interfere with a traitor attempting a hijack objective as nonsec due to the restriction on validhunting? Or to help security catch them in the shuttle? If that’s not disallowed then the problem stands.
It doesn't. If the entire crew of the shuttle is actively interfering with the hijack then the traitor can kill them all and it doesn't count as murderboning, because they're just killing to complete their objective.

People chilling in the passenger section aren't a threat to the traitor's objective, they may not kill them.

All security, people in the shuttle bridge or trying to break in are, so they may kill them.
So you can't, say, just gas everyone to death the moment someone starts objecting to your hijack attempt? It seems like a very simple and prudent way to deliver the shuttle (while keeping it intact, if you wanna make an RP argument about a bombed shuttle being worthless to the Syndicate). Shotgunning whoever is trying to stop you is gonna result in collateral too, most likely, just less.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Valorium » #609361

SkeletalElite wrote:I think whether or not murderbone for hijack is okay on MRP seems beside the point.

The point is whether or not murderbone permission is shared with antags you are working with.

ie.. If you're a traitor working for a malf AI with active doomsday is it okay?
I imagine it depends on if one of your objectives is escaping alive or if it's to die a glorious death. Helping a malf AI doomsday...kills you, unsurprisingly, so you probably shouldn't enable them even if it'd be in pursuit of some other objective (assassinating a target, maybe) if your objectives require you to be alive by the end.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Agux909 » #609368

terranaut wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel
It's not.
Is it disallowed to interfere with a traitor attempting a hijack objective as nonsec due to the restriction on validhunting? Or to help security catch them in the shuttle? If that’s not disallowed then the problem stands.
It doesn't. If the entire crew of the shuttle is actively interfering with the hijack then the traitor can kill them all and it doesn't count as murderboning, because they're just killing to complete their objective.

People chilling in the passenger section aren't a threat to the traitor's objective, they may not kill them.

All security, people in the shuttle bridge or trying to break in are, so they may kill them.
So you can't, say, just gas everyone to death the moment someone starts objecting to your hijack attempt? It seems like a very simple and prudent way to deliver the shuttle (while keeping it intact, if you wanna make an RP argument about a bombed shuttle being worthless to the Syndicate). Shotgunning whoever is trying to stop you is gonna result in collateral too, most likely, just less.

Collateral is fine. Preemptively and methodically killing everyone because you fear they might interfere is what wouldn't be allowed.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Armhulen » #609370

Agux909 wrote:
terranaut wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
sinfulbliss wrote:If validhunting is still allowed on Manuel
It's not.
Is it disallowed to interfere with a traitor attempting a hijack objective as nonsec due to the restriction on validhunting? Or to help security catch them in the shuttle? If that’s not disallowed then the problem stands.
It doesn't. If the entire crew of the shuttle is actively interfering with the hijack then the traitor can kill them all and it doesn't count as murderboning, because they're just killing to complete their objective.

People chilling in the passenger section aren't a threat to the traitor's objective, they may not kill them.

All security, people in the shuttle bridge or trying to break in are, so they may kill them.
So you can't, say, just gas everyone to death the moment someone starts objecting to your hijack attempt? It seems like a very simple and prudent way to deliver the shuttle (while keeping it intact, if you wanna make an RP argument about a bombed shuttle being worthless to the Syndicate). Shotgunning whoever is trying to stop you is gonna result in collateral too, most likely, just less.

Collateral is fine. Preemptively and methodically killing everyone because you fear they might interfere is what wouldn't be allowed.
But forget all that because station sabotage cannot be murderbone for the purposes of doing objectives as far as i'm aware. You're free to bomb, delaminate, flood plasma, and whatever else grand sabo as long as you have a target to kill and not an item to steal
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Agux909 » #609372

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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Screemonster » #610298

yeah if you have "kill someone and die a glorious death" it's not murderbone to maxcap yourself and your target when three other people happen to be in the room
arguably it might be murderbone if you contrived to have the entire crew assemble in that room by like conducting a wedding or something and blowing the entire congregation to kingdom come the moment they complete their vows, but it would also be hilarious
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Armhulen » #610299

Screemonster wrote:yeah if you have "kill someone and die a glorious death" it's not murderbone to maxcap yourself and your target when three other people happen to be in the room
arguably it might be murderbone if you contrived to have the entire crew assemble in that room by like conducting a wedding or something and blowing the entire congregation to kingdom come the moment they complete their vows, but it would also be hilarious
interesting antagonism overrides ruleset, it's better for the round to do something cool like this
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Pandarsenic » #610304

Frankly, if you manage to arrange an entire wedding just so you can maxcap it, I am in awe of your antagonist powers and/or you are a mad genius with the hypno items.
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Re: Traitor teaming and murderbone policy

Post by Cobby » #610397

Yes its important to acknowledge and even contest when you feel someone isnt promoting that experience that the rules are for general style of play, and that if you can make a genuinely interesting situation you should be encouraged to do so even if it doesnt fit nicely into the rules.

The murderbone rules should NOT be used to permanently dissuade interesting scenarios although do realize that the admin may have also enabled someone else to run something interesting so it could just be they dont want too many wild things going on at once or something (aka dont be upset if they say no once, but feel free to push back if you feel like you cant ever run an interesting scenario because of the rules). If you feel like the rule itself could be written better, feel free to have that convo with me and/or headmins (please bring examples of what you wish to see, "I wish the rules allowed for XYZ" without actually trying to codify them into the rule is much less helpful since we probably agree and I didnt add it because I dont know how to codify it).

The reason why we have to do a check through admins though is because otherwise there will be no quality on what is deserving to ignore that rule, and we simply cant trust EVERY single player to align with what we (I) want to qualify as a unique experience.
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