Malf AI borg machine and ghosting/succumbing

[Anuv]

Is there any policy on this. Some doofus was arguing you can do either without getting banned since you can't be "forced to antag" and as far as I'm aware that team antag conversions cannot be squirmed out of from past policy. I assume that borg machine is no different from a cult rune.

TO clarify if doing this would just earn a role ban or if you can catch a regular ban for doing such behavior, either once or repeatedly.

[Sweets]

I am said doofus.

I have the Clock Cult and Gangs (from PKP and Shaps respectively) bans to prove that it is a role ban only if you immediately ghost.

Succumbing before getting put in the machine is probably completely allowed however due to it happening pre conversion, but straight up ghosting wouldn't be. But I just can't see someone getting a full on Silicon ban (a core role in EVERY ROUND) just for not wanting to play malf.

I agree entirely with Oranges statement here.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... on#p479881

I don't think there's any value in forcing people to play something they don't enjoy.

[cSeal]

succumbing before being converted is fine, if you beat someone half to death before trying to convert them that's sloppy and I'm fine with people being punished for it by being cucked out of a team mate
if you cant succumb or suicide, it means they set it up in a way where you normally couldn't escape conversion, so I personally feel its kind of a dick move- I'd much prefer you ahelped to be offered up to ghosts in those cases after you get converted, which would let the antags get their teammate and let a ghost back into the round to boot

[Mothblocks]

- Disconnecting after conversion is bannable but only for that antag, ask an admin if you don't want to play
- Succumbing before conversion is OK--both revs and (especially) cultists have non-lethal ways to prepare someone for conversion, and when they don't (for example, a head-rev needing to beat someone up with sunglasses), then that means you already had the disadvantage.

[Armhulen]

- Disconnecting after conversion is bannable but only for that antag, ask an admin if you don't want to play
- Succumbing before conversion is OK--both revs and (especially) cultists have non-lethal ways to prepare someone for conversion, and when they don't (for example, a head-rev needing to beat someone up with sunglasses), then that means you already had the disadvantage.

the dumb part about the malf machine is that it requires living people so if you ghost or whatever you can't convert anymore

correct me if i'm wrong btw, it's been quite awhile since I've been put through one

[Anuv]

- Disconnecting after conversion is bannable but only for that antag, ask an admin if you don't want to play
- Succumbing before conversion is OK--both revs and (especially) cultists have non-lethal ways to prepare someone for conversion, and when they don't (for example, a head-rev needing to beat someone up with sunglasses), then that means you already had the disadvantage.

the dumb part about the malf machine is that it requires living people so if you ghost or whatever you can't convert anymore

correct me if i'm wrong btw, it's been quite awhile since I've been put through one

It also has a huge cooldown which was an issue when this was made. Namely at least one guy instantly ghosted upon borging which left an empty husk of a borg as well as a full minute cooldown on the machine.

[Anuv]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... on#p479881

I don't think there's any value in forcing people to play something they don't enjoy.

Then what's the point of having conversion antags at all if everyone can just succumb to own the libs.
Zombie flavor text was changed and policy was made for stuff like this.

[Mothblocks]

If a person is converted through the borginator and then ghosts, that is bannable and they should ask admins to offer them up instead, just like in my bullet points.

[WineAllWine]

Ideally we should be able to have an antag option for this so it will automatically offer you up to ghosts if you are banned from it like what happens with cultists

[SkeletalElite]

Seems like an "auto replace upon conversion" preference is needed as a code solution to the ghosting problem. If people don't want to play, give them an easy and automatic avenue to automatically be replaced when they are put in a role they don't want to be in. Essentially a way to "antag ban" yourself from a certain conversion role so you can be auto replaced without actually needing to request an admin to ban you from that role, which is more of hassle to set up or get rid of and also has the caveat that you can't get the role at round start either, if you only dislike being put into the role mid round.

[terranaut]

as former AI gamer and malf pro, my two cents are this:
if i remember right, ghosted/alive people still get converted but obviously won't have a client attached which is something that should be fixed on the code side. rolebanned people will just go through the machine with nothing happen.
if you don't want to play malf borg, please succumb. the borg machine has a 1 minute cooldown and it's happened more often than i can count that people slowly withered away and died while waiting for their chance at eternal life in a vastly superior silicon-based body because putting them into crit is often the most convenient way to subdue someone until you can throw them in the machine as a borg.
trying to force someone to play something they don't want to play is stupid and won't work, no matter how much policy you make on it.

[Cobby]

Get converted, F1, and ghost until a replacement option has been automatically made. You do not need to wait on an admin response in the instance you have to leave.

If you dc during conversion I personally ban you from all team antags not just the one you dc’d on. Administratively I somewhat disagree with oranges, you are free to choose to play or not to play but if you choose not to play at convenient times to btfo a conversion antag who has risked resources/time trying to convert you before people notice then you’re being a dick. Sometimes you lose, if you are a poor loser make sure you’re considerate of the person who beat you before leaving

[Sweets]

If you dc during conversion I personally ban you from all team antags not just the one you dc’d on. Administratively I somewhat disagree with oranges, you are free to choose to play or not to play but if you choose not to play at convenient times to btfo a conversion antag who has risked resources/time trying to convert you before people notice then you’re being a dick. Sometimes you lose, if you are a poor loser make sure you’re considerate of the person who beat you before leaving

I think Borg factory conversion is a special case here.

With any other conversion antag (Rev/Cult/Family/Abductor) I keep my body. I am explicitly allowed to keep doing whatever it was I was doing (cooking/building a maint shop/mining/genetics/ect.) so long as I 1. Do not hinder or harm my new team and 2. Respond to the headrev/Cult Leader/Family Head when called.

I can't do that as a borg. I lose all independence and can no longer interact with most items. I am also made vulnerable to the borg console
and will be much more difficult to revive/get back into a round due to just being a brain. I would prefer to just go take a ghost spawner role, but instead have to help an AI who picked borg factory instead of something useful.

"So just ask for a cyborg ban" one might say. Well no. Sometimes I actually want to play as a borg. Maybe I want to play as a syndieborg during an ops round or a clownborg. Maybe I want to be an engiborg to do power if I am an assistant and we have no engineering staff. Maybe I was a traitor and Cap says to borg me so I get to stay in the round. So a blanket silicon ban just for not wanting to be a malf AI borg when most rounds there will be no malf AI but there will always be robotics and borgs is a bit much.


As an addendum: I was not the borg who ghosted. I spent the entire rest of the round teaching a greyshirt who had never been a borg before how to interact with the borg UI after he got nabbed stepping off the arrivals shuttle until we were both blown by the robotics console.

[Cobby]

I dont care if you arent able to continue playing as you would expect as a human, you lost. You can choose to play with this restriction or not, but where I take issue is when you choose not to play in a way that specifically detracts from everyone else's, particularly the AI and team who potentially risked getting exposed, experience.

I am not suggesting a ban (one doesnt exist yet and I think a cyborg ban wont actually prevent the borger), I am telling you to just F1 and ghost after conversion so you can be offered up as a converted borg as to not cuck the AI which I think is a fair ask for people not interested in continuing the round.

[Sweets]

I dont care if you arent able to continue playing as you would expect as a human, you lost. You can choose to play with this restriction or not, but where I take issue is when you choose not to play in a way that specifically detracts from everyone else's, particularly the AI and team who potentially risked getting exposed, experience.

I am not suggesting a ban (one doesnt exist yet and I think a cyborg ban wont actually prevent the borger), I am telling you to just F1 and ghost after conversion so you can be offered up as a converted borg as to not cuck the AI which I think is a fair ask for people not interested in continuing the round.

Which I would. But I am making the argument for those who would rather fuck off (and because as a Lizard and sec player I can honestly say fuck all silicons and conversion antags)

Malf AI Borg factory is the ONLY "conversion" that would get you a server ban/warning as opposed to just an antag ban. And with both the cooldown on the factory, the AI almost always only asking for more engibotrs for stun arm, plus the amount of players I see succumb/ghost EVERYTIME there is a borg factory (there were two that round who ghosted. With 4 more succumbs). I would argue that some changes are needed.

Borg factory changed to Synth Factory when?

[terranaut]

I am telling you to just F1 and ghost after conversion so you can be offered up as a converted borg as to not cuck the AI which I think is a fair ask for people not interested in continuing the round.

I remember multiple rounds with several clientless borgs just kinda standing around in the room I had the borg machine in. In my experience, nobody takes them and they just sit there, waiting to be blown up by some maint robotics console, but a decent amount of people are content with their lot to continue playing when being forceborged. Really, just succumb so my borgs don't waste the cooldown. Please.

[cSeal]

Then what's the point of having conversion antags at all if everyone can just succumb to own the libs.

the point of conversion antags is to get converts alive and healthy before you convert them, just dont be sloppy

[Cobby]

I am telling you to just F1 and ghost after conversion so you can be offered up as a converted borg as to not cuck the AI which I think is a fair ask for people not interested in continuing the round.

I remember multiple rounds with several clientless borgs just kinda standing around in the room I had the borg machine in. In my experience, nobody takes them and they just sit there, waiting to be blown up by some maint robotics console, but a decent amount of people are content with their lot to continue playing when being forceborged. Really, just succumb so my borgs don't waste the cooldown. Please.

If no one wants to take it not much we can do except FORCE people to play which I think is overstepping.

would be nice though if a borg suicided it reset the cooldown so that would not only be helpful for the AI, but you wouldn:t have to wait for admins or have a useless borg sitting around.

[terranaut]

I am telling you to just F1 and ghost after conversion so you can be offered up as a converted borg as to not cuck the AI which I think is a fair ask for people not interested in continuing the round.

I remember multiple rounds with several clientless borgs just kinda standing around in the room I had the borg machine in. In my experience, nobody takes them and they just sit there, waiting to be blown up by some maint robotics console, but a decent amount of people are content with their lot to continue playing when being forceborged. Really, just succumb so my borgs don't waste the cooldown. Please.

If no one wants to take it not much we can do except FORCE people to play which I think is overstepping.

would be nice though if a borg suicided it reset the cooldown so that would not only be helpful for the AI, but you wouldn:t have to wait for admins or have a useless borg sitting around.

I don't mean to force anybody, I just think that letting someone succumb, so a player who is passively consenting to being borged by not succumbing or suiciding before it happens, will more be more successful than forcing people to shuffle through mobs repeatedly and possibly being worried about subconsciously using meta knowledge from previously being dead and refusing it out of caution to cheat or get nuked by an overzealous admin, or just someone who'd rather pick a ghost spawn role than be third in line waiting to be borged because of 2 guys who ghosted right after being borged. He could ghost himself and try to attain one of those two mobs but someone else might grab them just as he ghosts leaving him observing, or no admin being around to offer them up.

[Cobby]

sure ig but like if you have 5 bodies and 4 succumb, you get 1 borg and thats it.

if you ask people to ghost with the same numbers above, you have 1 borg/minute to 5 total. Admins can also PM people who are def gonna get borged and ask if they just wanna ghost and be a borg or wait to see if theyre saved.

As for meta issues, not much we can do about that except react when we see it. If the user thinks itll be a concern, thats on them to choose no when the prompt comes.

Either one works im just thinking like a newer AI who doesnt need 1 borg to win is not going to appreciate getting cucked out of 4 potential borgs even if theyre just a bad as him.

[Anuv]

Then what's the point of having conversion antags at all if everyone can just succumb to own the libs.

the point of conversion antags is to get converts alive and healthy before you convert them, just dont be sloppy

Except the borg machine heals you to full and the cult rune heals you heavily upon conversion. Sometimes you have almost no option except to crit someone especially if you have no cult stun or cuffs/borg stun.

[cSeal]

Sometimes you have almost no option except to crit someone especially if you have no cult stun or cuffs/borg stun.

If you are unable to use the tools at your disposal to make sure someone cant succumb, then tough luck bro idk what to tell you. You shouldn't be able to use less effective methods without there being a chance of consequences

[zxaber]

I am telling you to just F1 and ghost after conversion so you can be offered up as a converted borg as to not cuck the AI which I think is a fair ask for people not interested in continuing the round.

I remember multiple rounds with several clientless borgs just kinda standing around in the room I had the borg machine in. In my experience, nobody takes them and they just sit there, waiting to be blown up by some maint robotics console, but a decent amount of people are content with their lot to continue playing when being forceborged. Really, just succumb so my borgs don't waste the cooldown. Please.

This is probably more that there's no automatic handoff yet. Getting a new ghost requires the prior player or someone who happens to notice to ahelp, since admins will more likely be watching the action somewhere.

The easiest solution is probably a code one; empty bodies sent through the machine (that had a soul sometime prior), and borgs born of the machine that ghost within a set time should automatically poll for a ghost. Players that specifically wait out the timer and then ghost out after to deny the AI a functioning borg should be handled as they are now, and would have a lot less of a leg to stand on.

[sinfulbliss]

Any rule that forces people to play when they don't want to is a bad rule. You shouldn't be forced to play if you're not enjoying the game.

Personally I hate playing as a borg, I don't know how to play well as a borg and I don't really have a desire to learn how, so I ghost before being force-borged. In my experience whenever I'm being dragged to a borg factory, there are also like 10 bodies and a dozen borgs running around, so an extra borg isn't a big deal - the AI has already won.

Ideally there should be a way to opt out of certain team antags, just like people can opt-out of rolling antags they don't enjoy playing, but until that exists I think it's strange to force people to play a gamemode they don't enjoy.

[terranaut]

You could add an antag preference toggle specifically for malf borg and have the machine check but that's a code solution for a policy thread. Seems the overall best way though, because I agree that rules forcing players to play are terrible. Just make the guy gib with the gear on instead of passively going through, as normally the body+contents would be removed too.

[Pandarsenic]

Could some sort of adaptation of how soulstones work be applied to how the borg machine handles bodies?

[carshalash]

I actively tell people not to get the autoborger due to the ghosting and angry borgs griefing the AI after being converted.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

rule -1 be a good sport

[NamelessFairy]

Ghosting, disconnecting or committing suicide after being borged by the borging machine is a violation of rule 5 precedent 2 and should be treated as such. Doing so beforehand is not.

Rule 5 precedent 2

Ghosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off when converted to a team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes