Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

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Waltermeldron
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Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Waltermeldron » #611991

The situation
Recently, I got warned for preemptively killing security as an abductor because we had completed our objectives and me and my abductor buddy agreed to troll security. We bought a shrink ray and shrinked people, I had killed 1 person in security because I thought abductors were under rule 4 where they were free to do as they pleased. Apparently, this is not the case.

The problem
There is no policy text or rules anywhere saying that abductors were a side antag and that they didn't have the privileges of rule 4 to do what they want like other antags, they spawn in like every other antag with the same fluff text. The only way to tell that abductors are a side antag is in a policy thread from that can't be navigated to from the rules or from in game.

The solution
It'd be appreciated if side antags could be properly added to the rules and explained/clarified in rule 4 so that others don't make the same mistake as me of assuming that side-antags that are seemingly like any other antag are not actually one that comes under rule 4.
It's not immediately clear at all for some antags whether they're allowed to behave antagonistically or if they must follow their objectives because the fluff text can either be ignored or it decides what you are allowed to do.
An example of this is wabbajacking. Wabbajacking making you an antag is very unclear because the only way to discover how it makes you an antag is to read into policy threads which the majority of players who play are unlikely to do.

tl;dr
What is and isn't a side antag should be somewhere in the rules because it's very unclear for some antags and it's very easy for it to be misleading.
For example, abductors are a side antag which means they cannot use rule 4 to do whatever they want, but wabbajacked people who are unwillingly wabbajacked are not side antags and are free to do as they please. Both do not have any fluff text to suggest they are side/full antags and there is nothing about this in the rules either.
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Armhulen » #612002

I agree fully that abductors should get policy text saying they can't kill randomly
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Stickymayhem » #612005

We should probably just port a version of the chart from MRP to the main rules page for clarity with adjustments for LRP of course

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This is my non code solution I'm sure it could be more elegantly solved with explicit sections of fluff text
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Cobby » #612006

I don’t like the chart though because it makes “no” a lot more black/white than it should be if you’re going by the “street” definition of murderbone. Really the chart should be just a list of things that CAN bone, and describe that anything else has to respect the murderbone rules for MRP.

If you find yourself in a situation where you’re being chased and kill a lot of people in self defense, the “street” version of murderbone would suggest you’re in the wrong since it only cares about the number of people.

I would also think it would be wise to clarify what is and isn’t an antag generally speaking, it’s really tiring seeing anything remotely hostile to the crew get thrown into the antag bucket especially when we have rules that enable antags to do quite a bit. We keep running into this issue and keep fixing symptoms because the root is too sacred or something
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Waltermeldron
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Waltermeldron » #612010

Armhulen wrote:I agree fully that abductors should get policy text saying they can't kill randomly
Policy text would be nice, but there's also other antags that policy isn't clear on either (wabbajacked creatures)

I like the solution stickymayhem brought up, an antag chart saying which antags count as a side-antag would help clarify this a lot, as well as an explanation into what a side-antag is.

Codifying side-antags into the game may be a good solution too so it's even more crystal clear, because a lot of the minor antags could come under side-antags that don't have rule 4 protection. Some examples include:
  • Brainwashed victims
  • Obsession antag
  • Lavaland elite (their fluff text tells them they cannot ally with the station, but this is still really unclear if they're just allowed to ignore it or not because it's part of the fluff text)
  • Fugitive
This would also make it a lot easier to introduce side antags without having to make a policy thread whenever you want to add a side-antagonist.
The reason I made this policy thread is because getting punished for unwritten/hidden rulings is ass and I want to avoid people getting punished for things that are not locatable in the rules or in game.
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Flatulent » #612054

It’s funny, because on the wiki (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Abductor) we had Angust ask for a headmin rulling on the matter as far as August 2019. While regular antag page is definetly not something you should use in an appeal, information written there should still be considered.
Firstly, it is important to note: Abductors are currently not considered to be "full-blown" antags. You can troll the crew in many ways, create deadly havoc such as a zombie outbreak, but are not allowed to just grab your baton and murderbone, or do things like set the release point to the Supermatter crystal. The source of this information is between-the-lines info from primarily forum and discord from as far back as 2016, including ban appeals. The info is vague and there is no clear headmin ruling on the matter. Ahelp beforehand if unsure. - Updated August 2019
Stickymayhem wrote:We should probably just port a version of the chart from MRP to the main rules page for clarity with adjustments for LRP of course
This is a good solution, however it should not be implemented, not until we have directly quotable rulings from headmins on the matter.
Would be great if a current headmin could voice their opinion on all of this.
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Waltermeldron
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Waltermeldron » #612083

Flatulent wrote:It’s funny, because on the wiki (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Abductor) we had Angust ask for a headmin rulling on the matter as far as August 2019. While regular antag page is definetly not something you should use in an appeal, information written there should still be considered.
Firstly, it is important to note: Abductors are currently not considered to be "full-blown" antags. You can troll the crew in many ways, create deadly havoc such as a zombie outbreak, but are not allowed to just grab your baton and murderbone, or do things like set the release point to the Supermatter crystal. The source of this information is between-the-lines info from primarily forum and discord from as far back as 2016, including ban appeals. The info is vague and there is no clear headmin ruling on the matter. Ahelp beforehand if unsure. - Updated August 2019
I think something clarified in the rules would be way better because a lot of players like to learn the game by not opening the wiki whenever they encounter a role they haven't played before (but some do). For me, I didn't even know this was in the wiki because I already knew how to play abductor as I had learnt how to play it a long time ago so I didn't really need to ever check the wiki whenever I played abductor.
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by cocothegogo » #612135

This has been the case since abductor was introduced
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Waltermeldron
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by Waltermeldron » #612145

cocothegogo wrote:This has been the case since abductor was introduced
Not really relevant, it's still hidden rulings that require you to get punished beforehand to figure out.
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Re: Abductors and 'side-antags' in general. What gets decided as a side antag and what doesn't

Post by tattle » #616861

Abductors, obsessed, families, and fugitives shouldn't be killing indiscriminately on LRP servers. When the wiki is editable again, we will be formalizing the informal ruling on the abductor wiki page:
Abductors are currently not considered to be "full-blown" antags. You can mess with the crew in many ways and create havoc, but are not allowed to just grab your baton and murderbone, or do things like sabotage the Supermatter crystal.
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