Should you be allowed to brainwash people into your 'Consensual Conversion' antag?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

So, currently, Families 4.0 is being tested on Manuel. I think it's been pretty fun. It lead to a good bit of chaos like you'd expect from SS13, but at least here, it also lead into some pretty good roleplay. The kinda initially tense, almost cold war-esque state between two of the gangs before they agreed to a truce due to the third starting to harass unaffiliated people and being super violent towards the other gangs (IE, breaking the peace).

But the second round of it we had, went a little bit differently. I arrived late, and before I'd even made it half way from Arrivals to my department, I was confronted by a QM who gave me the ultimatum of "Join or die". I don't know if he would've followed through on it, I stalled until the Captain was nearby, then called for help and ran, and either the firelocks went off, or the AI tried to close 'em behind me so I could escape. The round continued on, but Cargo had an Enhanced Interrogation Pod in it. Which I assumed (and had confirmed for me after the round) was intended to be used to force people to join the gang.

What was proven to have the potential to be a super cool and interesting, unique mode (The First Round) was shown to have a HUGE ability to suck ass if cheesed (The Second Round). I found out that there wasn't any policy on the matter, so here I am to start this discussion.

Should Families, and any other Consensual Conversions that come later, be allowed to use brainwashing to force people to do it? In my opinion, it removes the large thing that differentiates it from Revs, or the Cult. It's interesting and unique, and offers that different experience, because you have the ability to choose who you want to join. You have the ability to join a new faction and use the information you had from the old one to assist your new one. It helps keep people reigned in, because if you do things nobody else wants, they have the option to go elsewhere. Brainwashing and forcing the conversions, however, makes it no different from Revolutions. You have been forced onto this team. You are now against that team. So personally, I don't think it should.

[iamgoofball]

Families gamemode designer here, it's a voluntary conversion for a reason and forcing people to get involved is dumb.

[Ryusenshu]

Are families even full antags? In my opinion they are in the same area as fugitives, "You are an antag but you have your rules".And yes i dont think they should be able to do that, since it undermines the whole thing. In the old wiki page it even highlights the volutary part alot

[Farquaar]

If you can brainwash people to do other voluntary actions (i.e. go play pranks, go drink at the bar, go beat up the CMO, etc.) I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to brainwash people into becoming a voluntary antag.

[Cobby]

This reeks of the abductor brainwashing you to sit in a corner and hide for the rest of the shift so your gland won’t give people away.

That said this sounds like a pain because rule 4 and knowing it’s the only(primary?) antag in the round people are going to check murderbone rules and not wherever this is covered unless it’s put in the json.

[ATHATH]

Hello, builder of that enhanced interrogation chamber here. Some context for its construction:

I started the round as an agent of the O.S.I. "gang", which is dedicated to defending the research department from Monarch (and impeding the progress of actual research). I knew from pre-4.0 Families that Monarch's goal was likely killing the RD, so I set out to find him to become his bodyguard. I soon found him talking to some of the members of my gang... as a member of Monarch. After we tried and failed to convince the RD to join our gang instead of the gang that literally had an objective to fuck him up, we were a bit stumped on what to do next. Defending the research department from Monarch seemed to be a lost cause, as the RD had already been converted and we apparently couldn't convince even him to leave Monarch. We later also learned from some b a r R P that Monarch had a similar research-impeding goal to ours, so we didn't need to go out of our way to sabotage the research department.

The QM then proposed an idea: if we funneled enough money into the B.E.P.I.S., we could research and then build an enhanced interrogation chamber to force the RD to defect for his own good. Partway through our money grinding, our gang successfully executed an operation to kidnap the RD, and we finally researched the EIC (in hindsight, I probably should have told the QM to not upload any of the other B.E.P.I.S. techs we researched to the tech web, even though that'd have reduced our chances of rolling the EIC tech) and constructed it in Cargo. Unfortunately, by this point, the handcuffed, kneecapped RD who had been actively engaged in conversations by members of O.S.I. had somehow escaped and cryo podded themselves. After the round, we learned that he was one of the roundstart Monarchs and thus couldn't convert to our gang even if he wanted to, and had just communicated this really poorly to us because he couldn't figure out how to properly communicate that to us IC. On our part, nobody in our gang had apparently bothered to tell the RD that we had kidnapped him for the purpose of brainwashing him, leading to his desire to cryo himself. Someone might have also tried to gulag him? I don't have the full story here, I was off grinding money for this plan for most of the round.

Since the RD had left, we decided to try to use the EIC to convert other members of Monarch (NOT unaffiliated civilians) to the service of O.S.I. by just sort of dragging them into the machine and closing it on them. Unfortunately, this approach and Cargo being publicly accessible (and the rest of my gang wandering off to find converts) lead to four Monarch members killing me and ripping out my internal organs before we could actually pull off a successful conversion. The QM then walked back into Cargo and got himself converted (to the service of Monarch) by our own EIC, while I spent the next 20 minutes waiting for Medbay personnel to figure out that I had no lungs or liver. Around 45 seconds after I was finally revived, I was shot and then grenade launchered by a Syndicate assault cyborg and the station was nuked.

For my heinous crime of wanting to foil Monarch's plans by using questionably moral brainwashing methods as a member of a secret government agency, I received the following Discord comments from CMDR_Gungnir (Riley Bailey/Ryuko Tachibana) and iamgoofball (Blutarch Mann). Keep in mind that I never held ANYONE at gunpoint (dunno whether or not the QM did, though), although I don't particularly see why doing that would be a problem.

I hope you get banned again, then.

The entire point of the fucking Families mode is that it's consensual conversion

But of course, here comes ATHATH again seeking the strongest way to play
So I hope the ban sticks this time.

It's a fantastic mode
But people like you, ATHATH, are the fucking problem with it.

"Hmm how can we game this this system?" - ATHATH at literally every opportunity

@Blutarch Mann I built an enhanced interrogation chamber to try to brainwash people into switching to my gang (including the RD, who had joined MONARCH and refused to leave)
riley is going ballistic about it, saying it wasn't "the intent of the gamemode"

The entire point of the mode is to be consensual conversion, that's why you have to use the book yourself. You are actively and intentionally attempting to game the system to win because that is what you do, and that's why you've been banned like 27 times now.

Overall I had fun and hope this gamemode stays. Mind you I literally only experienced being a gang leader.

I absolutely adore this gamemode, until the heehoo LRP codedive cheese-the-game man comes in and ruins it

quit powergaming my fucking gamemode or i will destroy you

@Blutarch Mann I built an enhanced interrogation chamber to try to brainwash people into switching to my gang (including the RD, who had joined MONARCH and refused to leave)
riley is going ballistic about it, saying it wasn't "the intent of the gamemode"

holy fuckin shit how did you take a consensual conversion gamemode and go "clearly, the intent is to force people to convert in exchange for being allowed to continue playing the game"
the big mechanical issue that round was "whoops, the RD is a henchman"

to be clear here, I built it with the intent of converting members of OTHER GANGS to my gang, not bystanders
namely, the RD

ONCE AGAIN
HOW DID YOU TAKE
A CONSENSUAL CONVERSION GAMEMODE
AND GO
"CLEARLY"
"THE INTENT IS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO CONVERT"
"IN EXCHANGE FOR BEING ALLOWED TO CONTINUE PLAYING THE GAME"

I'm just so fucking sick and tired of this shit.

[ATHATH]

tldr; This thread was created due to outrage over a plan to brainwash the RD (and other enemy gang members) to force him to leave a gang that had objectives to fuck him up in favor of our gang, who had objectives to protect the research department. This plan was created AFTER attempts to just talk him over to our side had failed.

Lowkey, I think that brainwashing and conscription should be legal for gangs to perform under any and all circumstances, but my argument here is that even if you don't think that that's the case, there's some nuance to this policy beyond "forced conscription should be bannable" and "forced conscription shouldn't be bannable".

[Cobby]

in the same vein as murderboning if its done to complete your objectives then the victims need to view rule 10, but you have to be prepared to explain in very plain english how doing X completes Y, no theorycrafted essays.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Goofball flames someone in chat for cheesing his rp mode by trying to force someone to join, but codes it so that roundstart members are code-prevented from being consensually converted and you can be forced to be your own gang's round target? Wow how totally outta character.

[Ryusenshu]

tldr; This thread was created due to outrage over a plan to brainwash the RD (and other enemy gang members) to force him to leave a gang that had objectives to fuck him up in favor of our gang, who had objectives to protect the research department. This plan was created AFTER attempts to just talk him over to our side had failed.

Lowkey, I think that brainwashing and conscription should be legal for gangs to perform under any and all circumstances, but my argument here is that even if you don't think that that's the case, there's some nuance to this policy beyond "forced conscription should be bannable" and "forced conscription shouldn't be bannable".

I dont see the problem with building the machine to convert other gang members, like at all . The machine is in the game and a tool to be used, the only problem is regarding the gamemode itself and since there is no policy yet for this "new" mode, i dont think anyone should be punished for using it like that "yet"

[CMDR_Gungnir]

tldr; This thread was created due to outrage over a plan to brainwash the RD (and other enemy gang members) to force him to leave a gang that had objectives to fuck him up in favor of our gang, who had objectives to protect the research department. This plan was created AFTER attempts to just talk him over to our side had failed.

Lowkey, I think that brainwashing and conscription should be legal for gangs to perform under any and all circumstances, but my argument here is that even if you don't think that that's the case, there's some nuance to this policy beyond "forced conscription should be bannable" and "forced conscription shouldn't be bannable".

This is a policy thread. I don't know why you brought up all those points related to it, or even think that this comment is worthwhile. None of them change the fact that we're having this discussion because there ISN'T policy about it, and we're trying to make some. You don't need to try and defend yourself from/in a thread that doesn't even name you. Furthermore, the QM DID baton me into stamcrit, and then ziptie me, and then stuff me in the machine. Thankfully another Monarch let me out before it stuck. He also proceeded to try and kill me when it was no longer allowed. And need I remind you, I was an unaffiliated civilian. I also ask the same question to Ryusenshu about his comment that I will quote in a moment to re-pose the question and try to get the thread back on topic.

I dont see the problem with building the machine to convert other gang members, like at all . The machine is in the game and a tool to be used, the only problem is regarding the gamemode itself and since there is no policy yet for this "new" mode, i dont think anyone should be punished for using it like that "yet"

The entire thing that separates this gamemode from being Just Another Shitty Revs or Just Another Shitty Cult is the fact that the conversion is consensual. So why should it be okay, then? If policy permits it, then it will become the STANDARD procedure to just beat people, cuff them, and brainwash them with "You are now a member of (X) gang. You are extremely loyal and would never even consider defecting. Follow instructions and work with them to achieve their goal."

At which point people will just go "This is just a shittier version of Revs!" and the mode will be removed. This policy needs to be in place to preserve the mode.

[ATHATH]

Goofball flames someone in chat for cheesing his rp mode by trying to force someone to join, but codes it so that roundstart members are code-prevented from being consensually converted and you can be forced to be your own gang's round target? Wow how totally outta character.

Hey, accidentally letting the RD be a roundstart target for his own gang is a very understandable mistake, and goof's almost certainly going to fix that ASAP. You can criticize goof for many things, but "not being psychic" shouldn't be one of them.

[Ryusenshu]

I dont see the problem with building the machine to convert other gang members, like at all . The machine is in the game and a tool to be used, the only problem is regarding the gamemode itself and since there is no policy yet for this "new" mode, i dont think anyone should be punished for using it like that "yet"

The entire thing that separates this gamemode from being Just Another Shitty Revs or Just Another Shitty Cult is the fact that the conversion is consensual. So why should it be okay, then? If policy permits it, then it will become the STANDARD procedure to just beat people, cuff them, and brainwash them with "You are now a member of (X) gang. You are extremely loyal and would never even consider defecting. Follow instructions and work with them to achieve their goal."

At which point people will just go "This is just a shittier version of Revs!" and the mode will be removed. This policy needs to be in place to preserve the mode.

1. "Gang Members"
2. What the QM did was wrong for sure, dont forcefully recruit people like that (there are a lot of other ways to get people to join)
3. People that willingly joined a gang should be ready to get unwillingly messed up by other gangs, since afterall you are an antag now and so are they

edit:
To clarify on 2.
You should still be able to annoy the hell out of people that havent joined, but nothing "absolute" like brainwashing, crippling ... stuff like that

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I dont see the problem with building the machine to convert other gang members, like at all . The machine is in the game and a tool to be used, the only problem is regarding the gamemode itself and since there is no policy yet for this "new" mode, i dont think anyone should be punished for using it like that "yet"

The entire thing that separates this gamemode from being Just Another Shitty Revs or Just Another Shitty Cult is the fact that the conversion is consensual. So why should it be okay, then? If policy permits it, then it will become the STANDARD procedure to just beat people, cuff them, and brainwash them with "You are now a member of (X) gang. You are extremely loyal and would never even consider defecting. Follow instructions and work with them to achieve their goal."

At which point people will just go "This is just a shittier version of Revs!" and the mode will be removed. This policy needs to be in place to preserve the mode.

1. "Gang Members"
2. What the QM did was wrong for sure, dont forcefully recruit people like that (there are a lot of other ways to get people to join)
3. People that willingly joined a gang should be ready to get unwillingly messed up by other gangs, since afterall you are an antag now and so are they

Fair enough. I agree with point 3, but I also, as a player, have an issue with brainwashing things in general, because I think it often hinders roleplay, and people who don't want to do what you make them do anyway will, often, find the first loophole or excuse to get out of it. I used to be guilty of that kind of thing myself. Gang Violence should be expected (there weren't any complaints about the first round listed in my opening comment) but "heehoo I have brainwashed you and now you are completely loyal to my side and can never leave " feels too Force Conversion to really keep the separation between this mode and other conversion style things.

I also think there really should be policy (or at least a specific ruling for the mode) that separates it from other Team Antags. Gangs shouldn't be going out there destroying shit because "Well I'm a Team Antag so Rule 4 says I can do literally whatever I want" because again, otherwise you just get a shitty mode that nobody will like because it's just Revs 2.

[ATHATH]

This is a policy thread. I don't know why you brought up all those points related to it, or even think that this comment is worthwhile. None of them change the fact that we're having this discussion because there ISN'T policy about it, and we're trying to make some. You don't need to try and defend yourself from/in a thread that doesn't even name you.

As mentioned in the tldr;, I posted that explanation as an example of a situation that did justify the usage of brainwashing. Seeing as how you immediately leapt to calling me an exploiting menace to the game who ruined the families gamemode on Discord because of my involvement in said brainwashing situation, I figured that the fact that the usage of brainwashing as a gang member isn't black and white was worth clarifying.

Furthermore, the QM DID baton me into stamcrit, and then ziptie me, and then stuff me in the machine. Thankfully another Monarch let me out before it stuck. He also proceeded to try and kill me when it was no longer allowed. And need I remind you, I was an unaffiliated civilian. I also ask the same question to Ryusenshu about his comment that I will quote in a moment to re-pose the question and try to get the thread back on topic.

I reviewed the footage, and during the ~5.5 minutes between the creation of the EIC and my evisceration, we only attempted to brainwash two people, both of whom were members of Monarch. The QM arrived on the scene (without a prisoner in tow) and was brainwashed (or, well, Monarch attempted to brainwash him) pretty much immediately after my death. If the QM kidnapped you, he did so as a servant of Monarch, not my ally.

The ID of that Manuel round was 168755, if any bored admins want to verify this.

The entire thing that separates this gamemode from being Just Another Shitty Revs or Just Another Shitty Cult is the fact that the conversion is consensual. So why should it be okay, then? If policy permits it, then it will become the STANDARD procedure to just beat people, cuff them, and brainwash them with "You are now a member of (X) gang. You are extremely loyal and would never even consider defecting. Follow instructions and work with them to achieve their goal."

At which point people will just go "This is just a shittier version of Revs!" and the mode will be removed. This policy needs to be in place to preserve the mode.

I would like to clarify that that EIC was constructed over an hour into the round, after around 30 minutes' worth of money grinding from me and bounty hunting from other members of the O.S.I. Contrast this with revolutionary or cult conversion, which can be involuntary from the start of the shift (or within a minute or so of shiftstart, if you want to be technical about cult conversion). Without the EIC or a similar brainwashing method available (so before the lategame of the shift (or always if no one decides to go through the effort of making an EIC, making a hallucigen addiction chamber, etc.)), you can always choose fighting until your last breath over conversion, which again can be contrasted with rev or cult conversion.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

As mentioned in the tldr;, I posted that explanation as an example of a situation that did justify the usage of brainwashing. Seeing as how you immediately leapt to calling me an exploiting menace to the game who ruined the families gamemode on Discord because of my involvement in said brainwashing situation, I figured that the fact that the usage of brainwashing as a gang member isn't black and white was worth clarifying.

I reviewed the footage, and during the ~5.5 minutes between the creation of the EIC and my evisceration, we only attempted to brainwash two people, both of whom were members of Monarch. The QM arrived on the scene (without a prisoner in tow) and was brainwashed (or, well, Monarch attempted to brainwash him) pretty much immediately after my death. If the QM kidnapped you, he did so as a servant of Monarch, not my ally.

The ID of that Manuel round was 168755, if any bored admins want to verify this.

Yes, but what does any of that have to do with the policy thread? This isn't about you. This is about the actions. Why are you bringing this shit up to defend yourself from accusations that aren't being made? You should do that in the place where they're being made. If you just wanted to raise the further question about using it against people who are already in a Gang, you could do that by just asking the question, "What do you think about the usage of it specifically against rival gangs, and not the un-affiliated?", but you chose to bring drama into this policy thread.

I would like to clarify that that EIC was constructed over an hour into the round, after around 30 minutes' worth of money grinding from me and bounty hunting from other members of the O.S.I. Contrast this with revolutionary or cult conversion, which can be involuntary from the start of the shift (or within a minute or so of shiftstart, if you want to be technical about cult conversion). Without the EIC or a similar brainwashing method available (so before the lategame of the shift (or always if no one decides to go through the effort of making an EIC, making a hallucigen addiction chamber, etc.)), you can always choose fighting until your last breath over conversion, which again can be contrasted with rev or cult conversion.

But if it is made, suddenly you no longer have a choice because there'll always be one person who will choose to win in the cheesiest, slimiest way possible. It defeats the entire purpose, and it doesn't do so in a way that makes the round more interesting, and that's the problem with it.

[Mothblocks]

I also think there really should be policy (or at least a specific ruling for the mode) that separates it from other Team Antags. Gangs shouldn't be going out there destroying shit because "Well I'm a Team Antag so Rule 4 says I can do literally whatever I want" because again, otherwise you just get a shitty mode that nobody will like because it's just Revs 2.

As an aside, this is why I asked the mode be kept to MRP, where antagonists have stricter expectations. Because I DO remember when every families round on LRP was people accepting gang conversions to kill everyone.

[iamgoofball]

I also think there really should be policy (or at least a specific ruling for the mode) that separates it from other Team Antags. Gangs shouldn't be going out there destroying shit because "Well I'm a Team Antag so Rule 4 says I can do literally whatever I want" because again, otherwise you just get a shitty mode that nobody will like because it's just Revs 2.

As an aside, this is why I asked the mode be kept to MRP, where antagonists have stricter expectations. Because I DO remember when every families round on LRP was people accepting gang conversions to kill everyone.

Yeah. There's frankly no way to reconcile the voluntary conversion with LRP that wouldn't involve changing to forced conversion, which would destroy a lot of the really good RP I've seen out of players on Manuel in regards to gangster conversion.

[Screemonster]

How about treating forced conversion as the same as killing in terms of what you're allowed to do, so if someone's not valid for you to kill then they're not valid for you to forcibly induct into your team either?

Obviously revs and cult are allowed to kill people outside their team as long as it doesn't harm said team, but I'm sure I remember the old version of families had different escalation rules for uninvolved people that said that gang members aren't given the green light to just go around killing people that aren't members of other gangs, like there was a table-o-validity somewhere on the wiki.

[Farquaar]

I still don’t even get why there’s a debate here. Can someone explain it to me? I feel like I’m missing some context.

[Screemonster]

I still don’t even get why there’s a debate here. Can someone explain it to me? I feel like I’m missing some context.

tl;dr the spirit of the gamemode is that picking a team is supposed to be voluntary and explicitly not a forced conversion gamemode as we have a bunch of those already, and people are using game mechanics that exist outside of the mode to force people to convert thus turning it into yet another shitty conversion mode and goof would rather that not be the case

even more tl;dr it's yet another argument between the spirit of the game versus playing to win at all costs

[Farquaar]

tl;dr the spirit of the gamemode is that picking a team is supposed to be voluntary and explicitly not a forced conversion gamemode as we have a bunch of those already, and people are using game mechanics that exist outside of the mode to force people to convert thus turning it into yet another shitty conversion mode and goof would rather that not be the case

even more tl;dr it's yet another argument between the spirit of the game versus playing to win at all costs

Eh, I still don't see why forced conversion is terribly at odds with this gamemode so long as it's rare and doesn't replace voluntary conversion outright.

[Screemonster]

tl;dr the spirit of the gamemode is that picking a team is supposed to be voluntary and explicitly not a forced conversion gamemode as we have a bunch of those already, and people are using game mechanics that exist outside of the mode to force people to convert thus turning it into yet another shitty conversion mode and goof would rather that not be the case

even more tl;dr it's yet another argument between the spirit of the game versus playing to win at all costs

Eh, I still don't see why forced conversion is terribly at odds with this gamemode so long as it's rare and doesn't replace voluntary conversion outright.

you know as well as I do that "as long as it's rare" doesn't enter into it for some people, if it's "allowed" then they'll consider it their constitutional right to do it at all times

[Valorium]

I mean, I can count the number of times I've seen an Enhanced Interrogation Chamber used in a round on TG both on LRP and MRP on...zero hands, actually. And that's as both a frequent Science and even more frequent Cargo player. I think that if this is something that was obtained after half an hour of concerted grinding and an hour of actual gameplay (which is quite long for a gamemode like this), it sounds like an edge case that would be used infrequently at worst. On MRP, most people are more willing to put in effort to actually convince people to join a gang than to just shove them in a funny box for whatever reason, at least that I find. There's always gonna be those cases, sure, but the EIC is a tool same as any other - it feels the same as if a large group of revs started making large amounts of golems as conscripts; it's not in the spirit of the game mode and it certainly wasn't intended when the mode was originally conceived, but it's not gonna happen so often that it needs to be banned.

[SkeletalElite]

Seems like either the ability to brainwash is too common or people are taking an issue over something that will happen rarely enough that it's a non issue.

It's brainwashing, you're supposed to be able to force someone to do something usually voluntary.

[MooCow12]

If you "consensually" joined a gang you have "consensually" involved yourself in the escalation that comes between gangs. Simply only allow brainwash of people who are in other gangs. Would you rather be round removed when two gangs come into conflict?


I can also see brief brainwash of neutral players to aid in a gang`s goal to be valid in some situations, especially with how easy it is to replace a bepis brainwash with a random piece of info that doesnt warrant the brainwashed victim to act, like (you are not a member of the tunnel snakes but due to your involuntary service you have earned protection from them should you ever seek it.)


Does this force the brainwash victim to side with said gang? No, infact they can then start going out of their way to hinder said gang with the reoccurring fact that something was done to them

[NamelessFairy]

Following the designer's wishes, joining a family must be done consensually, brainwashing/hypnotizing people into joining families is not allowed.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: No
Dragomagol: No
RaveRadbury: No