Who is responisble for mass griefing?

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Istoprocent1
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
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Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by Istoprocent1 » #613510

This policy is intended to discuss and clarify who and to which extent are held accountable during a mass griefing situation. I didn't manage to find other sources, if there are any do post them here. I can think of two situations on the top of my head:

Active captain declares a race/speices war - humans vs non-humans

Is "I was just following orders from my superiors" enough to push the whole accountability on the captain or are each individual player responsible for their actions?
What happens if the active captain is an antag head? If only active captain is held responsible, would it mean that any antag as an active captain could turn any round into a TDM?

Antag assistant declares a race/speices war - humans vs non-humans

A group of like-minded assistants gather and go on a griefing spree. Here nobody can claim that "they were just following orders". The antag assistant has the protection of being an antag, while the others would need a valid reason for their griefing (my character is crazy or super racist/speicist is known to not be a valid reason to grief).

Any thoughts?
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Gigapuddi420
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #613521

I suspect in both cases players are accountable for their actions but the circumstances of the round might mitigate some of their responsibility.

In both cases players are expected to follow the rules, escalation still applies when dealing with non-antagonists and just because the Captain is the highest authority doesn't mean you have to follow unreasonable orders. Accountability comes down to information available and your role; if the Captain orders you to kill someone they claim to be a traitor and you have no reason to doubt him then I'd hold the Captain accountable for telling you to kill them, you were just acting on the best information you had. If the Captain is ordering you to GAS THE LIZARDS RACE WAR NOW, you should question that order or at least hold yourself accountable if you follow along with his gimmick. If the Captain turns out to be a antagonist and you followed a clearly unreasonable order because it's fun, you are accountable for your actions.

Basically explain to the admin message you'll inevitably get your situation; providing you were acting on the best information and following the rules within the context of what was happening you should be fine and the person feeding you false information is accountable. Smart antags should be able to frame people and security who are legitimately rused shouldn't be punished unless it's clear they went along with it to grief.
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Fatal
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by Fatal » #613544

Server rules are above any ingame orders, I thought that would be pretty obvious

The captain telling you to murder people for shitty reasons is not going to absolve you of any punishment if you go and do it and it's deemed to be a bad kill
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wesoda25
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by wesoda25 » #613570

I’m personally inclined to give people some leeway and shift most of the responsibility to the captain, I think it makes for more interesting rounds. Generally speaking though a metric of good faith is involved, if I think someone is using a captains orders as an excuse to be a dick I will not be pleased. If they’re just trying to maintain chain of command and that involves obeying some orders they don’t quite know the justification behind, I will probably be fine with it.

If someone with no authority, ie an assistant, tries to start a group antag behavior and you, a non-antag, join in? You’re getting punished.

In a somewhat similar vein to this, if you and your group of assistant pals are going on a tiding run which an antag takes advantage of to kill/hurt someone, I’m also holding you (and everyone directly involved who is not an antag) responsible. An example of this is say you and a tide group raid brig and have an officer stunlocked and stripped, and an antag walks up and kills them.
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Fishimun
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by Fishimun » #613572

wesoda25 wrote:I’m personally inclined to give people some leeway and shift most of the responsibility to the captain, I think it makes for more interesting rounds. Generally speaking though a metric of good faith is involved, if I think someone is using a captains orders as an excuse to be a dick I will not be pleased. If they’re just trying to maintain chain of command and that involves obeying some orders they don’t quite know the justification behind, I will probably be fine with it.

If someone with no authority, ie an assistant, tries to start a group antag behavior and you, a non-antag, join in? You’re getting punished.

In a somewhat similar vein to this, if you and your group of assistant pals are going on a tiding run which an antag takes advantage of to kill/hurt someone, I’m also holding you (and everyone directly involved who is not an antag) responsible. An example of this is say you and a tide group raid brig and have an officer stunlocked and stripped, and an antag walks up and kills them.
so IF I as a shitter, get a security officer to chase after me, dump fire extinguisher's content on the ground, they slip and i shove em into a stun. and a tator happens to see this and just steals them away from me and kills them. Am I going to eat a ban?
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wesoda25
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by wesoda25 » #613575

Less egregious scenario but yes, effectively the same. Your actions as a non-antagonist should not be enabling the real antagonists. This one of the lines in the ground that turns greytiding into something unacceptable. If you made a genuine effort to help the officer when you saw what was happening, I would be more inclined to not take issue with the situation. Just make sure there aren’t consequences for your tiding. Ofc I would pretty much always start with a discussion and warnings for these sort of things, assuming a history is not already present. It would also be fairly context dependent, if say you got a scuffle with some crewmember, they blabbed to sec and you got set to arrest, I would not hold you accountable if a traitor took advantage of the window created by you attempting to escape. But it you’re doing it for shits and giggles, yeah I’m probably going to take issue with it.
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Mothblocks
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by Mothblocks » #613596

What wesoda said. In the case of your fire extinguisher slip, good faith should be assumed but you'll still be told to be more careful and to try to fix the situation you caused (either by trying to prevent the antagonist from getting their kill, bringing the seccie to medbay if you find them dead, etc).
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SkeletalElite
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by SkeletalElite » #613694

The responsibility should fall to both the organizer and the participants IF the participants know clearly that what they are doing is grief.

Ie. if a changeling manages to kill and take the place of the HoS without anyone noticing and leads the security force into killing a bunch of people who didn't deserve it, obviously the only person at fault is an antag and thus it should be okay.

If the Captain/HoS does the same thing but are not antags, and are just lying to the security team to trick them into griefing then clearly the captain/HOS are at fault.

But if it's obvious that what you're doing is grief then the participant is also at fault.

Much of this game is about deception after all. It's a matter or figuring out whether a participant was acting in good faith or not.
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #613704

if ai griefs by laws (and they permit it) then its whoever uploaded them fault

if u want to dehumanize some faction u better off giving a "x isnt human but shouldnt be killed or harmed if they dont require to be" so if ai griefs its not your problem anymore
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Re: Who is responisble for mass griefing?

Post by NamelessFairy » #615600

Both the organizer and participants in mass grief can be held responsible based on the context. Admins are encouraged to use their own discretion to identify who is culpable in mass grief but as a general rule of thumb, participants are only responsible if its possible for them to recognise that their actions are against the rules. E.g. Killing all non-humans as a non-antagonist is obviously grief, going along with it after being asked to do as an non-antagonist would also be considered such.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes
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