[MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

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Bmon
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[MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Bmon » #614967

Recently I had a shift where I was a heretic. After a short chase with sec that involved me breaking two of my blades, I was detained and brought to brig where I was promptly executed by the Captain and HoS without committing any capital crimes that would normally warrant an execution.

I asked in ahelps if me being executed was acceptable under RP rule 6, I was initially told that it was up to the discretion of command and security whether or not to execute a heretic upon capture. After bringing up another ticket where this hadn't been the case I had a lengthy discussion with the admin who I brought up, the conclusion to that discussion was that heretics only sometimes fall under the protection of RP rule 6 and that perceived powergame(For reference I had a smuggler's satchel fill with blades and had stolen equipment from the departures sec locker) allows command/sec to escalate to execution even when a capital crime hasn't been committed.

Since there is confusion on this I would like clarification: When are heretics allowed to be executed and under what circumstances is it acceptable?
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spookuni
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by spookuni » #614977

As a standard measure, security and command are free under RPR 6 to execute prisoners they cannot reasonably contain by normal measures*, this includes changelings and wizards with robeless spells, and conditionally includes heretics, as there is no way to be sure any given heretic can't just jaunt or blink their way out of a holding cell, or drop a baton-equivalent hit with their mansus grasp as even a basic heretic with no research.

Defacto, this means that heretics that have proven ill-intention (though, they're heretics, gonna goes with the antag type) are almost** always valid for execution under RPR 6, as even in the best case scenario with the roundstart security setup, imprisoning a heretic is imprisoning someone who can pull a pseudo-baton at any time and start beating their way out of perma the moment someone steps in there.

This is a problem that directly stems from the nature of heretic's abilities, and while I would love to see heretics changed to some form of focus casters in the vein of robed wizards (maybe needing their book to be on their person to cast spells or something similar I dunno), for as long as any heretic who's proven they intend to get violent is always** capable of visiting that violence on anyone within melee distance, the ball will be in the court of security as to whether they wish to go above and beyond to try and keep the angry manus wo/man alive.

*This includes, but is not strictly limited to: Changelings, Wizards with robeless spells (and good luck confirming that the wizard hasn't taken a cheeky fireball just to fuck you over at the last second), heretics, nightmares (haha shadow jaunt go brr), traitors or operatives with martial arts, traitors or operatives with active holoparasites, xenomorphs and space dragons.

**The exception to this, other than the classic GBJ clause of keeping someone cuffed permanently, which is functionally equivalent to execution anyway, is the use of genetics mute injectors, which completely prevent the usage of heretic spells, as all heretic spells are verbal. This however, is both not common knowledge and requires the intervention of another department which may or may not be staffed, and while I love to see seccies take it upon themselves to try and keep people in the round, it isn't something that they can be expected to pursue for every heretic that pops up in every round.
Last edited by spookuni on Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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mrmelbert
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by mrmelbert » #614978

The full MRP rule 6, for context.
Deal with the bad guys in proportion to their crime(s).

When dealing with antagonists deal with them proportionally to their crime(s). Someone who stole the captain's medal shouldn't be immediately lasered to death, but lethal injecting someone who has killed four people is understandable. If an antagonist shows a willingness to engage with you, do your best to reciprocate it, though leniency as to their punishment is still in your court.
As I was the admin who handled the situation and ticket that sparked this thread, I'll throw in my reasoning for the verdict I gave.

Heretics have a large amount of inherit danger that comes with attempting to deal with them in the context of MRP rule 6. When approaching them, it largely depends on the players involved on either side and how the heretic was captured when determining whether an execution is "rule 6 valid". In this situation, I ruled it valid for the following reason:

I highlighted this aspect of MRP rule 6 -
...If an antagonist shows a willingness to engage with you, do your best to reciprocate it, though leniency as to their punishment is still in your court.
If a security force captures a heretic within the first fifteen minutes of the round with a smuggler's satchel full of blades and stolen security outpost armor, it is clear to them that the heretic is not willing to engage, rather the heretic is instead attempting to maximize their chance of winning (ascending). Because the antagonist is clearly not willing to engage, they can execute them. This verdict I gave is pretty much the basis for this thread.



As an aside, I will mention you bringing up capital crimes in space law in determining ability to execute. Under our (very underdeveloped) space law, "Enemy of the Corporation" is a capital crime and while technically means "execution valid" we don't allow traitors be executed for their sole traitor status. If anything were to be changed in this thread, I think that'd be a good place to start.
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Pandarsenic » #614990

I would be interested to see more expectation to perma so that people can find ways to RP (or use a cryo tube in the permabrig if they don't expect that to happen)
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Valorium » #615091

Throwing in my opinion (I watched the exact round from figuring out Bmon was a heretic to his execution as a ghost), the general impression was that you were very obviously gearing up to go on a murder spree (making tons of blades, getting security armor and comms, beating the tar out of a plasmaman atmospherics tech for their ID, busting open the CE's locker and taking some restricted gear I don't recall, etc.). Given your previous heretic track record of going on absolute tears with powergamed equipment (which was almost explicitly noted by the Captain executing you, stating something to the effect of "you're too dangerous to let live"), it may have been more of a preventative measure. Without meaning an ounce of disrespect, you specifically may have reaped what you sow. Whether that's in violation of the rules is a subjective matter, but if I was in a situation where I'd captured a heretic decked out in restricted equipment including (possibly) high-risk items, when I know they have a reputation for making people sorely regret having mercy, I wouldn't exactly be hesitant to remove the problem before it becomes one.
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Pandarsenic » #615094

I'm pro-permabrig at a policy/design level, but if you dedicate your whole backpack to weapons and stolen sec gear, robust a dude, and get caught, I don't think Command/Sec should be required to put up with your inevitable brig breakout adventure - because what else does it look like you're going to do if you're not being constantly babysat by someone when you have that gear?
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Bmon » #615116

mrmelbert wrote:Heretics have a large amount of inherit danger that comes with attempting to deal with them in the context of MRP rule 6. When approaching them, it largely depends on the players involved on either side and how the heretic was captured when determining whether an execution is "rule 6 valid". In this situation, I ruled it valid for the following reason:

I highlighted this aspect of MRP rule 6 -
...If an antagonist shows a willingness to engage with you, do your best to reciprocate it, though leniency as to their punishment is still in your court.
If a security force captures a heretic within the first fifteen minutes of the round with a smuggler's satchel full of blades and stolen security outpost armor, it is clear to them that the heretic is not willing to engage, rather the heretic is instead attempting to maximize their chance of winning (ascending). Because the antagonist is clearly not willing to engage, they can execute them. This verdict I gave is pretty much the basis for this thread.
The point of this thread is to get a clear a decisive answer as to whether heretics are on the same level as changelings and are considered 'valid' to execute. Conflicting answers lead to making this thread.
mrmelbert wrote:As an aside, I will mention you bringing up capital crimes in space law in determining ability to execute. Under our (very underdeveloped) space law, "Enemy of the Corporation" is a capital crime and while technically means "execution valid" we don't allow traitors be executed for their sole traitor status. If anything were to be changed in this thread, I think that'd be a good place to start.
I forgot that EOC itself is listed as a capital crime! Most other MRP servers aren't this way, I assure you of that. In my opinion, most of space law needs to be re-done as it's very heavily dated like the fact that heretics aren't even listed as an EOC. A fifth space law category for crimes that could net parole to permabrig/permagulag would be useful for MRP.


Valorium wrote:Throwing in my opinion (I watched the exact round from figuring out Bmon was a heretic to his execution as a ghost), the general impression was that you were very obviously gearing up to go on a murder spree (making tons of blades, getting security armor and comms, beating the tar out of a plasmaman atmospherics tech for their ID, busting open the CE's locker and taking some restricted gear I don't recall, etc.)
RP Rule 5 forbids unascended heretics from outright killing people for no reason. While I did beat up an atmos techie they instigated the conflict by attempting to disarm stunlock me. I was rather lenient with them as I only soft critted then epipenned them, I also didn't take any of their stuff as you claim. As for stealing 'restricted gear' from the CEs office unless you want to count the advanced insulated gloves as that then I didn't.
Valorium wrote:Given your previous heretic track record of going on absolute tears with powergamed equipment (which was almost explicitly noted by the Captain executing you, stating something to the effect of "you're too dangerous to let live"), it may have been more of a preventative measure. Without meaning an ounce of disrespect, you specifically may have reaped what you sow. Whether that's in violation of the rules is a subjective matter, but if I was in a situation where I'd captured a heretic decked out in restricted equipment including (possibly) high-risk items, when I know they have a reputation for making people sorely regret having mercy, I wouldn't exactly be hesitant to remove the problem before it becomes one.
Careful as you start to head down a very slippery slope when it comes to metagrudge, the way a player is treated when it comes to the application of space law should be from the perspective of the current round only and not that from previous rounds. I am not saying you should have to give mercy to someone you don't like but your application of space law should be fair for the crimes the person in question committed. In this particular round, I didn't get far at all as you saw for yourself.
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #615149

Bmon wrote:Careful as you start to head down a very slippery slope when it comes to metagrudge, the way a player is treated when it comes to the application of space law should be from the perspective of the current round only and not that from previous rounds. I am not saying you should have to give mercy to someone you don't like but your application of space law should be fair for the crimes the person in question committed. In this particular round, I didn't get far at all as you saw for yourself.
But that wouldn't be metagrudge. It's not going "Oh, man. Fuck Reay, I hate that guy, I'm gonna make sure to kill him." It's considering the health of the round and the enjoyment of every other player on the server. You have that track record. It kinda sucks being a round with you. You have a consistent history of immediately punishing people who dare to show you a hint of mercy (I remember a time that you were shown mercy because you 'Didn't do anything yet' and you went out of your way to cremate the chaplain who had snitched on your poppy gathering).

What it comes down to is "If I show Reay any mercy, everybody else in the round is going to have their rounds ruined. I have proof that he's an antag, I have proof that he's one that will be incredibly difficult to keep detained, and I have proof that he's got hostile intent. I can either ruin his round by taking him out early after he fucked up and got caught, or I can ruin the rounds of half the server when he inevitably powergames the shit out of them."

That's not metagrudge, that's considering the enjoyment of the rest of the server.
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #615184

It is metagrudge, you're ""considering the enjoyment of the server"" with out of round knowledge (past history of them)
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #615243

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:It is metagrudge, you're ""considering the enjoyment of the server"" with out of round knowledge (past history of them)
He had a bag full of security equipment and heretic knives. I think it's pretty clear what his intentions were, and I think it's pretty reasonable to execute him even without his history. When you factor it in though, you have the Catch22 that no matter what action you take (Mercy or Execution), someone's going to have their round ruined. Would you rather it be the dude who got Rule 10'd and got caught? Or would you rather it be the multiple dudes who are just minding their own business? It's not really fair to say that Rule 10 applies to the Chaplain who said that his poppies were taken, but not to the dude who has powergamed to shit (by MRP standards).
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Screemonster » #615266

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:It is metagrudge, you're ""considering the enjoyment of the server"" with out of round knowledge (past history of them)
Metagaming to make the game more enjoyable for other people on the server (including meta "this guy running a gimmick is obviously a traitor but I'm going to not act to stop him because this is gonna be funny as fuck") is cool and good actually
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by carshalash » #617147

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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by NecromancerAnne » #617148

I always have had problems with heretics on MRP. I already personally think heretics are extremely derivative tryhard antagonists that focus heavily on murderbone and are mostly geared towards veteran players who know what they're doing, and that's probably an interesting premise and challenge for the LRP servers.

But given heretic rolls on the same threat as traitors, cannot be reasonably contained because they possess magic, have little mechanics beyond excessive mass murder as part of their objectives, and will be granted the reward of a free murderbone pass (though they functionally have one already) once they get enough kills under their belt. Their progress is based on a dynamically updated list of people to round remove on a rune and gaining additional tools as a result. If they're not doing this, even if they do get some of the free points scattered around the station (which they compete for with other heretics), they ultimately won't get very far without that.

The antagonist is the antithesis of what Manuel was meant to be, a server to slow down and do more interesting things with your role. You kind of just bring the round to an immediate close as a successful heretic. The only tension you present is that you are more or less a time bomb on the rounds longevity. I don't even know if what carsh posted is against the rules for heretics as it stands, because you can very easily follow the rules as heretic and still more or less be skirting them the whole way through.

Since the person who was originally maintaining Heretic was only focusing on it's performance on Terry, a LRP server with very powergamey players on it and a high skill floor, and also has long since left /tg/ after getting burned out on the process, it's doubtful this mode has the MRP rules at heart or can be worked on further since it also seems counter to what maintainers want from our antagonists as well. When I've spoken to maintainers about what should be going forward with antagonist changes (focusing on traitor and ling), a lot of it is 'emphasis on stealth, sabotage, cleverness, remove mass murder from gear and really objectives as well'. Pretty much that signals to me that Heretics as it is probably isn't going to see further development that isn't a total rework.

It's development wise Cult 2.0, all the same problems, all the wrong and similar priorities (powergame or lose, extremely unforgiving to new players), all the same burnout, and probably the same developmental stagnation.

I'll be honest, I think it just shouldn't roll on MRP. Let Sybil and Terry have it, they'll definitely and do enjoy it, but it has no place here, and that's extremely disappointing since I really had hopes for it.
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by Archie700 » #617209

This has changed from whether RP rule 6 should apply to heretics to whether heretics should even be on MRP.
Problem with the heretics on MRP is that they depends on murder and sacrifice of people to succeed after they get influences. They are basically snowballing antags like cult and rev, with the caveat that the only way to snowball is essentially round removal instead of conversion. Once the crew start disappearing, it's essentially a hunt for a serial killer for sec before he starts to ascend.
A solo serial killer with an ever-growing list of sacrifice targets who basically snowballs for every sacrifice and needs sec's full attention to stop him is basically antithetical to slow MRP play.
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Re: [MRP] Heretics and RP rule 6

Post by tattle » #617845

Due to the removal of heretic on MRP, this thread no longer applies.
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